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Hybrid Honda Accord

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  • "But it CANNOT be doing a better job ALSO in hwy driving, because it is not using the electric motor, it's "advantage" over the milds.... "

    Electric motor has advantage only in the low speed city driving because of high torque. Gas engine is more efficient on highway. It doesn't make sense to convert gas into electric to drive high speed with electric motor.

    So, full hybrid has less advantage than mildbrid on highway because they both have efficient gas engines. Yet still, Prius get more mpg on highway than HCH. I believe it is because of HSD bypassing the transmission.

    Dennis
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote-"Yet still, Prius get more mpg on highway than HCH."-end quote

    Doesn't get more mpg on hwy than my 2004 HCH manual tranny - they are both rated at 51 mpg....:)
  • "anyone know when they are going to be available? Any new word?"

    Dec 3rd. On time for Christmas!

    http://hondanews.com/CatID2128?mid=2004091739095&mime=asc

    Dennis
  • "Doesn't get more mpg on hwy than my 2004 HCH manual tranny - they are both rated at 51 mpg....:) "

    So, there we go! eCVT is as efficient as a manual tranny. *Ignoring car size and weight* wink wink. Take care.

    Dennis
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,837
    I don't have the time or energy to go back and delete the 20-some off-topic posts in here, but last warning - any further posts that are not specifically about the Hybrid Accord will be removed without notice.

    HOT TIP: If 3-5 people are posting most of the messages in most of the hybrid discussions, it fits the definition of monopolizing the conversation. Take a break. Get a drink. Get some fresh air. Whatever you do, stop trying to one-up each other in here. No one is learning anything because no one can be bothered to read it all. It's just tedious drivel.

    If you take a quick look to the left, you'll see the end of my rope just peeking out from the margin...

    kirstie_h
    Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

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  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,896
    "How about that Accord Hybrid - anyone know when they are going to be available? Any new word?"

    Honda says December 3rd, 2004!!!

    "Honda proves a hybrid can have other benefits besides good fuel economy — there's great performance to boot.".... Unlike the Prius.

    http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6134289/
  • rfruthrfruth Posts: 630
    Glad for the HAH, afraid when the general public hears hybrid they think low emmisions & high MPG, now if you want the fastest Accord its the hybrid or as Honda says more power less gas !
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,896
    I think all hybrids are niche market cars. I think Honda is filling one of the niches for people that want a green high performance vehicle. More power to them.
  • rfruthrfruth Posts: 630
    I think all high performance vehicles are niche market cars and now the HAH joins the ranks.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    I better jump into the discussion, otherwise it could be dubbed monopolizing! Right host? ;-)

    Yep, and a different perspective to hybrid was necessary to change the perception. I have a feeling, that may have been the driving force behind choosing V6 as forming the base engine of HAH over I-4.

    The latter could happen, but with more emphasis on fuel economy/emissions than performance. But, it is nice to target both ends of the spectrum, as well as compete in what is otherwise a "near luxury segment" as well.

    I hope, however, Honda comes up with a TSX Hybrid, and mates it with a manual transmission. That can be my type of car.
  • It's not the actual performance gain that Honda is after with the HAH, but rather they want people to perceive that hybrids are not just slow, miserly sipping point a to point b types of vehicles but rather they can be FUN (to some extent even more so than their gas only counterparts) while being efficient. (This also explains why they aren't coming out with a VCM manual Accord, because doing so would only hinder their agenda.) If they can communicate this message, IMHO, they have achieved a greater level of success than if they pop out another 4-cylinder hybrid.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    I think another reason Honda is starting at the high end with the HAH is that it is easier to recoup development costs on a higher-priced car. Once the new technology in the HAH is accepted and proven, Honda can move it down the chain if they choose. The 4-cylinder is plenty peppy and already gets great fuel economy. Imagine what it could get as a hybrid. Then there's that hybrid diesel Accord that some here have been lusting after...
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    I’m not sure how HAH can help change perception from one aspect of hybrid that people have gotten used to (focus purely on fuel economy and emissions) to performance side of hybrids. That’s why I see it as an attempt to change perception of hybrids rather than create a perception (it already exists, as far as hybrids are concerned). In concept form, Honda tried it three years ago with the Dualnote Concept.

    As far as VCM is concerned, Honda may be offering it in Accord Hybrid before they do in regular Accords, but if the hybrid option were to be added to vehicles like Odyssey, it would be in reverse. So, I’m not sure how that hinders the cause. Could you explain? And to take it further, Honda isn’t offering HAH with manual either, so if it made sense to offer Accord V6/VCM w/manual to get better fuel economy, it would also make sense to offer manual with HAH. I wish Honda did.

    As far as VCM itself is concerned, and I have covered it before, presence of electric assist seems to help it a little more. Under light throttle acceleration, the VCM wouldn’t switch to six-cylinder mode if the load requirement is within limits. With no electric assist, VCM would immediately switch to V6 mode (as it does in Odyssey).
  • vietviet Posts: 847
    I am going to buy a brand-new Honda Accord hybrid this December 04. No question asked. This HAH will add to my great collection of Honda autos and motorcycles.

    Viva Le Honda !!! Honda makes my life happier. Other old-lady Camries or ugly Nissans will breath smoke from my HAH's big rear. Other Big3 oldies will be voluntarily discarded to the auto junk yards when their owners look at my shiny HAH.

    Honda's engineers are so smart to achieve goals on performance and fuel saving for their Honda autos for almost 3 decades. HAH's price is affordable. I am thinking about getting a navigation too. Congratulations.
  • Strictly speaking, if it's 3 to 5, that would be oligopolizing, but then this isn't an economics discussion group, and I suppose monopolizing got your point across.
  • larsb asked:

    >But the part I have yet to see fully
    >explained anywhere is "why would a Full
    >Hybrid SUFFER more at high speeds than a >comparable mild hybrid?"

    The full hybrid uses an Atkinson cycle motor which gasins about 4% efficiency at the expense of having almost no low end torque and a low max RPM 4,400 and a very peaky torque curve. However ,the HSD system is designed to operate the engine at only one speed to provide its peak torque. The speed is varied by a pretty unique CVT-like planetary gear with one ICE, MG1 ( Motor Generator 1, Motor Generator 2) This chagres the hybrid battery and also provides low-end torque.

    The biggest problem is that the MG1 and MG2 are always engaged. Even at highway speed when the hybrid battery is fully charged both MG1 and MG2 take away from the ICE power. There is a conversion loss when the ICE turns MG1/ MG2 to generate electricity. It would be more efficinet to obtain the power directly from the ICE; the is no conversion loss from ICE to ICE. Now remeber the whole premise of the HSH is to maintain peak torque; so the proponents say that there is extra power being generated at highway sppedd , so there is not loss. Yah right that is why the highway efficiency (mpg) is lower than the City mpg.

    It would be interesting to develop a prototype Prius that had an IMA and realy compare apples-to-apples. Or visa-versa to develop a HAH prototype that utilized the HSH concept.

    WE the Prius made it to big time news: Paul Harvey announce that Toyota is doubling then number of Priuses imported to the US.

    YMMV,

    MidCow

    P.S.- larsb thanks for joining and for your commenets, insight and fresh perspective
  • HAH is scheduled to start arrriving at Honda dealerships in December 2004.

    Honda seems to be better at scheduling thier vehicle delivery than Toyota or Ford.

    YMMV,

    MidCow
  • ksomanksoman Posts: 590
    considering the time you guys spend on this forum, are you both PAID by the respective companies to loiter around here and just push their own company agenda?

    i'm suprised this fracass and wastage of argumentative space has gone on and on and on and the forum moderators who used to be so trigger happy in the distant past when the FMO forum was slapped off aren't interjecting in and booting you all from edmunds.

    Bravo!

    ksso
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    "booting" people from Edmunds forums who desire to fuel the fires of debate is a poor solution. If someone repeatedly ignores Host requests and personally attacks other posters, well that is a good reason. But not just because they are debating an issue !!

    People ought to be able to discuss their views and beliefs "if staying at least close to the subject at hand."

    Sometimes arguments about one issue cause a branch of arguments to begin on a related issue - that's just how debates go.

    May The Spirit of Debate live on.!.!.!.! :)
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,896
    considering the time you guys spend on this forum

    I imagine everyone is at work. I notice it drops off on the weekend. When discussing future vehicles there is a lot of dead time between little snippets of actual information. That dead time is filled with banter and opinions. You know what they say about opinions & backsides "we all have one".

    PS
    If you think this one is bad go check out "I Don't Like SUVs" there is 60k posts that are very repetitious.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    I have always assumed that these boards are for more than making statements. I’m always open to good debates. Oh as far as getting paid for it, I wish. ;-)

    I’ve also had issues with the way Edmunds’ is moderated. Either the threads deemed offline or personal attacks be thrown right away, or let it settle down on its own with “moderate moderation”.

    That said, I thought this thread had taken a turn for good. Hopefully it will continue to go this way. In the future, if you think any of my posts “starts” something with an inflammatory remark, please feel free to point that out. You’re one of the more balanced members I have noticed on this board.

    I hope to continue to provide information or share my opinion on the subject. But at the same time, we couldn't complain about a thread being "live" could be?
  • 1. People are entitled to their opinion.
    2. Don't take what other people say too seriously.
    3. Its okay to disagree, it is not okay to insult.

    Keep these in mind guys and we all can have fun on the board.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,837
    That's the spirit!
    'nuff said :)

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  • vietviet Posts: 847
    Even though my favorite cars are Honda, early 2002 I test drove a Camry V6 XLE 2002 and also an Accord V6 EX 2002. Finally, I decided to buy the Accord V6 EX. That was my 8th Hondas in the row.

    Honda's advanced automotive technology, its attention to details, customers' comfort and satisfaction are far more sophisticated and absolutely much more superior than Toyota, Mazda, Mitsubishi and even BMW or Mercedes. I test drove a 318 BMW and I hated it so much for its awarkness and discomfort. That is why Honda's resale values are very high. You can't be wrong to buy a Honda. In 2003, Honda built 17 millions Honda engines including autos, motorcycles, lawn mowers, etc. Recently, Honda has been contracted to build jet planes' engines for the U.S.

    I am going to buy a HAH in December immediately when their first shipment arrives in the U.S. regardless of its price. Honda's automotive technology is superb and its engineers are super intelligent. I am willing to pay for Honda Accord (hybrid) name plate. I have been waiting this HAH since 1999 as the Insight and the Civic hybrid are too small.
  • vietviet Posts: 847
    I also bought an Accord Coupe V6 2003 for my son. He has been driving it around from North to South California for fun with his friends before he entered college.

    The HAH I am going to buy is for my other son next year. I am the "legal custondian" of that HAH for at least 1 year. In the next couple of years when Honda introduces a new model I have every reason to buy it. Currently, my wife drives an Accord EX I4 95 with over 200K miles on it. It runs like crazy from San Jose to Westminster back and forth. It is much better than the Camry she bought years ago that I had to sell it at 95K miles.

    VIVA LE HONDA !!!
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    "its attention to details, customers' comfort and satisfaction are far more sophisticated and absolutely much more superior than Toyota, Mazda, Mitsubishi and even BMW or Mercedes"

    Whoaa! Now that's a stretch, unless you are a marketing executive at Honda. Anyway your entitled to your own personal opinion which just happens to be not shared by most people on this planet.
  • vietviet Posts: 847
    My relatives and friends bought expensive Mercedez and BMW models and they paid dearly for repair and maintenance costs after 100K miles. Those auto manufacturers are not Kings any more in auto industry.
  • Even though I don't completely agree with your opinions, I like to see a die hard Honda fan every now and then.

    Live on, viet!
  • vietviet Posts: 847
    I have maintained my Honda Accords real good. Back in 1992, my Honda 1986 civic 1.3 liter with 120K+ miles still ran like new on the highway. When I first bought it it ran almost all night with 4 people on it from North to South California of over 700 miles continuously without problems. While my rented brand-new Dodge Stratus became so exhausted with all lights on dashboard turning on after only 350- mile trip.

    My friends in back East gets an Accord with 300K miles and it still runs even though the car body is getting rusted by salt on the roads during winters. However, my son's Accord V6 EX 2003 just got recalled for inspection for potential problem on the second gear of transmission.

    Sorry, I have to say Honda's engineers are very intelligent and innovated. I hate the gear box of Nissan and Mitsubishi. The transmission of the Mitsubishi Eclipse and Galant sometimes slip or do not work properly even their engines are very strong.

    I expect the Accord hybrid (HAH) still carries same quality like my other Hondas. They are worth every single penny I put out. The HAH pleases me with its decent MPG, 255 HP and its roominess. As somebody put it: "The HAH perfectly suits with college educated, married men/ women with household income of 100K or more...and bald".
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    IMO, Honda should have differentiated Accord Hybrid by giving it the looks of its mechanical twin (Honda Inspire) in Japan to differentiate it more from regular Accord while retaining a mainstream appearance.

    image

    Those rims look identical to HAH’s. Honda is expected to release HAH in Japan also, but I doubt it will be “Accord”, instead this “Inspire”, since Honda doesn’t offer V6 in Japanese Accord.
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