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Hybrid Honda Accord

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  • gatrhumpygatrhumpy Posts: 126
    That was a nice article, but the 0-60 times that they say are waaaaaaaaaaaay off. The Accord hybrid will clock 0-60 MPH at a flat 6.0 or 6.1 seconds, while my EX V6 will do 0-60 MPH in about 6.5 seconds. The hybrid is an interesting car, and I cannot wait to test drive one in December.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Blame it on Honda. The company is far too conservative in quoting the 0-60 time for Accord V6 itself (8.0s). But then, most people don’t go for all out drag racing anyway so 8.0s (Accord V6) and 7.5s (Accord Hybrid) may be quoted as a more realistic “everyday” run. In magazine runs, I anticipate HAH running 0-60 in about 6.5s, more often than not.
  • gatrhumpygatrhumpy Posts: 126
    I agree. The new Hybrid may be even quicker than that. All that I know is that I can't wait to test drive the hybrid.
  • Toyota's Synergy system is definitely more advance than IMA and is producing more power than IMA. Edmunds.com should do more homework before providing such bias statement.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    to which false statement are you referring?
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi Edgar52:

    Edmunds.com should do more homework before providing such bias statement.

    ___What biased statement? And if more power from HSD vs. IMA was relevant, how come the only Hybrid in Toyota’s stable is the slowest of all cars they sell here in the states vs. the AH which will be the fastest?

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • ksomanksoman Posts: 590
    Edgar,

    As somebody who doesn't own a honda and doesn't plan to buy the Accord Hybrid in any forseable future time frame, I trust my judgement is biased toward the unbiased and I've to seriously wonder if you are not doing the "grapes are sour" routine. I wonder how many people even remember that story from their childhood.

    ksso
  • edgar52,

    I see you just joined the forum and this is your first post. First Welcome!

    If you will please review the current and archived threads you will find there has already been a lot of discussion on the subject.

    Toyota's current hybrid system is the HSD; the synergy sytem was used in thier previous generation systems. The HSD is a "full hybrid" system which has a lot of merit compared to the "mild" hybrid system of the HAH which uses an IMA to assist the ICE.

    That being said the implmentation of the HSD in the Prius , which is fully functional, is not performance oriented at all. A standard metric of performance, 0-60 mph accleration time, is very slow for the Prius in the range of 11.5 to 10.2 seconds. It is the almost the slowest Toyota vehicle in Toyota's line-up. The primary goal of the Prius was to be a live beta proof-of-concept of the HSD system; secondarily low emissions and high mileage. It was a success and is now being sold to Ford and is being applied to other vehicles in the Toyota line. Even the HSD system has its limitations , it is good for city driving and "surburban driving", a new term coined by one of the threaders meaning 35-50 mph range; not quite city and not quite highway. But the highway mileage of the Prius suffers a key reason is because one of the generators is always drawing power from the ICE (Internal Combustion Engine, normal motor in non-hybrid cars) even when the battery is fully charged. This is not efficient becuase there is ALWAYS a conversion loss when energy is changed from one form to another.

    The IMAs hybrid implementation on the otherhand is very good on the highway. The HAH with IMA and VCM will achieve better performance (0.5 seconds better 0-60 mph than the non hybrid V6 Accord automatic) and better mileage ( 30/37 versus 21/30).

    Power of the Honda Hbrid Accord will be in the range 6.5-6.0 seconds for 0-60 mph acceleration.

    The is phenomally better than the Prius acceleration, worst case( best Prius to worst HAH)= 3.7 seconds better to best case ( worst Prius to best HAH) =5.2 seconds.

    I don't think Edmunds made a mistake is their statement; It might have been you interpretation or bias in reading the statement. Edmunds was not making a theoretical comparison between HSD and IMA , but rather a comparison of the practical application in two vehicles : Prius versus HAH.

    Again welcome to Edmunds forumms.

    YMMV,
    MidCow
  • http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/honda/accord/100452039/roadtestar- ticle.html?articleId=103272&tid=edmunds.h..wkedmunds.firstdri- ve.1g.*

    Edmunds says: ...the new Accord Hybrid's Integrated Motor Assist (IMA) system is designed to be the most powerful hybrid system ever built. "

    Eat you hearts out Prius lovers!

    YMMV,
    MidCow
  • mcardlemcardle Posts: 36
    Forgive me if this has been asked/ answered recently... went back through ~100 posts and didn't see it.

    Honda's website shows an MSRP for a top of the line Accord (gas) as $28,700, with $500 delivery. Any idea of where they Hybrid will show up? Edmunds seems to think it will be $3,000 - $4,000 higher... thoughts?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Honda hasn't announced pricing yet, but it is expected to be about $30K. At that price, it would be a little of $3K higher.
  • Cost estimated to be $30,000 without NAV, NAV $2,000 more. Loaded with everything except sunroof. Also has VCM (variable cylinder Management), electric steering, two compressor AC (ICE and electric: both for real cold, electric when ICE is stopped)) and active noise cancellation. 5-speed automatic sedan.

    The car is expected to sell at MSRP compared to Accord ICE V6 usually being discounted close to invoice, hence the $4,000 difference; not MSRP to MSRP but consumer cost.

    Expected to be in show room in December 2005.

    YMMV,

    MidCow
  • First, I agree with Edmunds.com statement that HAH is the most powerful hybrid ever bulit. The key word is powerful. Where is that power coming from? Mostly from the gasoline engine. For every horsepower from the assisting electric motor, the gas engine provide 15 horsepower. It shows that IMA dual powertrain tend to go out of balance(1:15) as they get larger and more powerful.

    How long will HAH hold "the most powerful hybrid" title? Until March 2005. Highlander Hybrid or Lexus RX400H HSD powertrain with 270 horsepower will be the most powerful hybrid then.
    Just like the Prius, HH and 400H will have balance(1:1 hp) gas and electric powertrain. It will be a proof that HSD design is flexible and scale well as rise in power and size.

    "implmentation of the HSD in the Prius .... is not performance oriented at all."

    Clearly. Prius used 1.5 liter Atkinson cycle engine that produce 76 horsepower. If Prius was not powered by HSD, it will need 2.0+ liter Otto cycle 145+ horsepower gas engine to get the same performance(See Toyota Allion spec). Note that HSD can couple with Otto cycle engine as well as Diesel engine. Prius GT already shown us 0-60 in 8.7 sec with 1.5 liter Otto cycle engine. The bottom line is that, more powerful ICE and electric motors can make HSD a power house.

    "The primary goal of the Prius was to be a live beta proof-of-concept of the HSD system"

    Interesting. The first mass produced Prius sold in 1997 is a 4 door sedan. At that time, Honda's IMA Insight 2 seater looks more like a concept car to me.

    "Even the HSD system has its limitations , it is good for city driving.... the highway mileage of the Prius suffers a key reason is because one of the generators is always drawing power from the ICE..."

    Let me ask you something about HSD. In city driving, does HSD use more electric or ICE? How about on highway? For IMA, Insight gets 57mpg city and 56mpg highway. HAH get 30mpg city and 37mpg highway. Why HAH city is lower than highway?

    "one of the generators is always drawing power from the ICE (Internal Combustion Engine, normal motor in non-hybrid cars) even when the battery is fully charged."

    HSD is a full hybrid. It can power the wheel with both ICE and electric power even on the highway. The battery is never fully charged to protect it from overcharging. HSD also reserve 20% for steep downhill situations.

    Dennis
  • How long will HAH hold "the most powerful hybrid" title? Until March 2005. Highlander Hybrid or Lexus RX400H HSD powertrain with 270 horsepower will be the most powerful hybrid then.

    The horsepower might be more, but the HAH will be much faster. I and most others measure performance by standard metrics of 0-60 mph time and time to go 1/4 mile.

    Interesting. The first mass produced Prius sold in 1997 is a 4 door sedan.

    The synergy system was renamed to HSD with the introduction of the 2004 Prius. The HSD is a Beta, the Synergy an Alpha. Very few even knew about the generation 1 Prius from 1997-2003 and Toyota sold very few.

    For IMA, Insight gets 57mpg city and 56mpg highway.

    Actually, I tend to ignore the CVT Insight, the 5-speed manual is 60/66. The 57/56 CVT mileage points out the inefficiencies of an automatic, even a CVT automatic, rather than the inefficiencies of IMA.

    HSD is a full hybrid. It can power the wheel with both ICE and electric power even on the highway. The battery is never fully charged to protect it from overcharging. HSD also reserve 20% for steep downhill situations.

    This is a waste of energy period, the generator always is running converting ICE energy to electrical; there is always a conversion loss Whether the battery is never fully charged or not and a 20% reserve for downhill are bunny trails and have nothing to do with explaining the inefficiency of converting ICE energy to electrical to either (1) charge a battery that doesn't need to be charged, (2) drive the other electric motor directly that isn't need or (3) charging the atmosphere; i.e. not used ,completely wasted.

    This is a flaw in the HSD design. If energy is not needed why run the generator? Except to lower the highway mileage.

    YMMV,
    MidCow

    P.S.- What kind of car do you currently drive? Just curious, because I know you love and embrace the Prius technology.
  • vietviet Posts: 847
    Hi Midcow,

    Thanks for your feedback. You have demonstrated your great knowledge and experience on cars, HAH and hybrid technology.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,768
    I guess by that logic, the IMA in the Insight and HCH was the Alpha, and the IMA in the HAH will be a Beta. Or maybe it too is an Alpha, because it's a different setup than the Insight and HCH, with a V6 and the variable cylinders feature--first time this combination has been used in a vehicle.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    IMA is not tied to VCM (or V6 in general). Honda could use this third generation of IMA in next Civic Hybrid, or perhaps come out with fourth.

    Going from “alpha” (Insight) to “beta” (Civic), Honda emphasized on more compact and lighter package with slightly more power. And with the “gamma”, Honda has laid little emphasis on power increase and more on electric motor taking over some duty from the ICE.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,768
    OK, I'll buy HAH being the "gamma" for IMA ("GA" in software parlance), but by the same logic I'd have to consider the current-gen Prius to be "GA" also.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Okay.

    Having said that, in attempt to get the focus back on the subject line...
    Is Edmunds’ incorrectly stating that the HAH is the most powerful hybrid they have tested?
  • robertsmx,

    This issue I think is around the statement in the Edmund HAH First Drive review:

    "While the Big H's main competitor has focused on refining its highly efficient but relatively low-performance synergy drive system in the Toyota Prius, the new Accord Hybrid's Integrated Motor Assist (IMA) system is designed to be the most powerful hybrid system ever built."

    There is some difference in opinion of what is meant by the word powerful .

    If you mean normal performance measurements of 0-60 mph and 1/4 mile times, then the HAH is the most powerful hybrid ever built. Honda is usually conservative in their ratings and is saying the combined HP is 255 with only 15 hp from the IMA.

    However, if you look only at horsepower then the upcoming Lexus RX400h will have higher horsepower , current estimate 270 hp, and very good performance for a SUV ( 0-60 mph in under 8 seconds, probably just barely under like 7.9). But it will still pale in comparison to the HAH for acceleration, handling, stopping, etc.

    YMMV,

    MidCow
  • cogukcoguk Posts: 7
    Hey does anyone know if you can pre-order one of these cars? They're meant to be coming out soon, right ... so why can't I find anywhere that is offering a pre-order option??
    Thanks
  • You might search up at the top of this forum. One person said he pre-ordered a Hybrid Accord. However, I haven't seen anything official from Honda. However, a local Houston dealer that I regularly communicate with has started talking about the Accord Hybrid. I think you best bet at this time, might be to go down to the Honda dealer you like best and put down a deposit and get on a list. Good luck

    And by the way I noticed you are new to the Edmunds forum and this was your first post, WELCOME

    YMMV,

    MidCow
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    I think the issue is with the thinking that hybrid power means electric components only. And they couldn’t be further from the truth. In the end, power delivered by the “hybrid drive train” is all that can be compared. So, I don’t see an issue in Edmunds’ comment that somebody here did.

    I agree, Accord hybrid is going to be the benchmark to measure performance of hybrid vehicles, at least for couple of years. Besides, many aren’t aware here that IMA isn’t necessarily a 10-15 HP system. Honda has showcased concepts with up to 150 HP coming from electric motors (150 HP in Euro Accord Hybrid concept; 100 HP in Dual Note Concept and 60 HP in RDX concept).
  • I for one think that the "power" of a hybrid should not be judged just by the HP, but rather the difference in HP/torque achieved by the addition of an electric motor. As of now, the difference in HAH is 15 hp, whereas it will be around 30-40hp for HH and RX400h. Someone here said that the HAH will outperform the HH and RX400h. What do you expect? You are comparing apples and oranges. I would never expect a V6 SUV (that is AWD if I might add) to best a V6 sedan. Rumors are that Toyota is going to redesign the Camry in couple of years when it will have 3.5L V6. 3.5L V6 + Full Hybrid is going to be more powerful than HAH.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    I for one think that the "power" of a hybrid should not be judged just by the HP, but rather the difference in HP/torque achieved by the addition of an electric motor.

    Why?

    You would be correct, if we were comparing Electric Vehicles. The premise of hybrid drivetrain surrounds two powertrains combining to provide power to the wheels.
  • "If energy is not needed why run the generator?"

    Because it is needed. It is needed for reasons that you have not realized. Since Edmunds' article compared HAH with Prius, I'll use Prius as an example to explain why generating electricity has useful reasons behind it. Therefore, it is not a waste as Midcow claimed.

    You already know that Prius has an ICE with only 82lbs-ft max torque. HSD Prius does not have multi-gear transmission unlike automatic or manual. The main electric motor(MG2) can output 295lbs-ft max torque. Power Split Device is basically a planetary gearset which is always engaged and never need to shift gears.

    How does Prius multiply ICE torque and thrust without shifting a gear? Simple! Convert ICE horsepower into electricity and output 295lbs-ft of torque through 50kW MG2! This is the very basic principle why a full hybrid will always rely on balancing the usage between gas engine and electric motor and get away without ever shifting a gear. For HAH, ICE and electric motor power must pass through traditional multi-gear transmission to output desire thrust to the wheel.

    You did not answer my previous questions regarding HSD city and highway. HSD will use more electricity and less gas engine during city driving. That's why it got higher EPA city than EPA highway, even though there are more frequent electricity generation. Why? Generator is over 95% efficient and there simply isn't much air drag unlike on highway. Think about it. The drag that 60mph highway speed create is about 15hp. Maximum energy loss in Prius due to electric generator is about 4hp.

    Dennis

    P.S: We have Celica, Maxima, Civic and MDX. You can guess which drivetrain must power my next car.
  • "Honda could use this third generation of IMA in next Civic Hybrid, or perhaps come out with fourth."

    I know 3rd gen IMA improved about 12% of it's 10kW electric motor and enhanced electric generation efficiency. What else? Does hybrid A/C count as subset of 3rd gen IMA as well?

    Dennis
  • "There is some difference in opinion of what is meant by the word powerful "

    pow·er·ful (adj) Having or capable of exerting power.

    You can't have opinion on the defination. HH and 400H will be more powerful than HAH. When comes to performance, I agree that HAH will probably do better because it was designed as sports sedan. HH and 400H SUVs can also do things that HAH can not as well. Nothing is stopping Toyota from putting 270hp HSD powerhouse into Camry Hybrid.

    Dennis
  • "I think the issue is with the thinking that hybrid power means electric components only."

    Hybrid power is combination of both electric and ICE power. It is not just only electric power nor gas ICE power. They ought to be balanced.

    "IMA isn’t necessarily a 10-15 HP system. Honda has showcased concepts with up to 150 HP coming from electric motors (150 HP in Euro Accord Hybrid concept; 100 HP in Dual Note Concept and 60 HP in RDX concept)."

    By looking at the 3rd gen IMA, electric power to ICE ratio is going down. Not up. Concept is nice to have but what a company is being offered to the public is a stronger statement. For example, Mitsubishi also showed Eclipse hybrid concept with electric 200hp boost.

    Dennis
  • "I for one think that the "power" of a hybrid should not be judged just by the HP, but rather the difference in HP/torque achieved by the addition of an electric motor. "

    I see your point. The extra power net gain benefit that hybrid brings to the table. You also have to look when that surge of power deliver occurs. For HSD, it is strongest when passing at speed between 30mph and 70mph. There are other things such as fuel economy and lower emission to look for as well. HAH would be rated for City 29mpg/ Highway 33mpg if it does not have VCM(not IMA exclusive feature). We all know HAH does not improve CARB emission rating from EX-V6. Hey but it has 15hp more at peak.

    Dennis
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