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Comments
BTW, 2003+ Accord has had company when it comes to offerings from Honda. TSX has joined in, and its sales were up to 30K units in 2004 (18K units in 2003). Honda would be a happy camper with the duo accounting for 415-420K units/year with 2% (or less) going into fleet sales.
Accord Hybrid should keep up, or beat the pace to sell 20K units in a year. Thats all is needed for the next step.
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2. Looking for performance and power + high MPH.
3. I drive 40,000 miles per year and HAH will provide me superb comfort, power, speed and great MPH in one vehicle for years to come.
4. I agree with the extended warranty issue. I think if a product is built with quality than why spend $$$ for nothing. However, being as this is year #1, I'd rather gamble a grand and sleep well on my way to a 100,000 miles of care free piece of mind.
As you can see, I am not an ordinary consumer and if I were buying for my wife, definately she would get a standard accord.
As for Honda, I'm loyal as they get.
You may want to try working part time as a cab driver using your new HAH to see how far, fast and durable your HAH is. Like a real story about a Prius in Japan, the cab driver/ Prius owner got a free brand-new Prius from Toyota to replace his old Prius which he drove it for 180K miles to carry around his customers for 2 years without problems.
Just kidding to Hondamon, one of our nicest Honda fans because he drives too much in one year, 40K miles. The most I drive is about 20K miles/ year.
I have exact same thoughts with you on everything you mentioned except the first part of item # 3 that I do not drive 40K miles/ year but I still need a comfortable, high performance car with great MPG. And the HAH seems to be the best fit.
I'm in sales and cover the western 13 states. I fly about 10% of the time as I do machine demos. Wasn't going to buy a new car this year because my Mazda had given me 92,000 relatively maintenance free miles. But I read an aricle in the local paper that stated gas should be near $3 a gallon in 05' and that sealed the deal for a hybrid. I knew Honda was the one and was sure the Civic was it. Then I made the mistake of taking the new HAH for a test drive. Took about 1/2 a block to make my decision. Yes the Civic gets 25% better mileage but 8 hours a day and 40,000 miles a year, I had to compromise MPG a little for the other things.
I haven't had a second thought about my choice. I read the opinons about whether the HAH is worth the extra $$$. Right now as gas is less than $2 it probably isn't for most but when it hits $3 - $4, my HAH will be worth gold and I will recoup my investment in less than 2 years. If gas stays @ $2 then I will save on the gas price which will help to offset the initial cost.
Either way, I will come out ahead and drive a superb automobile that is great to drive. I didn't know work could be so much fun.
Sorry for rambling, just my own personal thoughts but I'm open to other folks thoughts and opinions.
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Accord Manual tranny I-4 is rated 26/34.
Greenhouse gas emissions:
Hybrid = 6.0 tons
I-4 manual = 6.5 tons
Tax credits:
Hybrid = $2,000
I-4 manual = $Zero
"I'm helping the environment" rating:
Hybrid = 10
I-4 manual = 0
"I have the newest, coolest car" rating:
Hybrid = 10
I-4 manual = 0
"my car emits Zero at red lights" rating:
Hybrid = 10
I-4 manual = 0
"my car will depreciate as slow as an EX" rating:
Hybrid = 10
I-4 manual = 0
"I can drive with one hand" rating:
Hybrid = 10
I-4 manual = 0
Don't you mean 20-33 mpg? The 5 HAH reports I see range in the low to mid 20s with one car getting 33 mpg on a long daily commute. You see people getting 35-38 on the highway with both 4 and V6 Accords. No, high mileage is not in the cards for the HAH.
"I'm helping the environment" rating:
Not sure how you came up with that conclusion when the HAH is not rated SULEV II. It is a failure as a green car admit it.
I have not seen any documents that state the HAH will be eligible for the $2000 tax write-off. You are assuming it will be accepted into the program.
It is cleaner than a comparable I4 Accord. That was the two cars being compared.
Of course the Accord Hybrid will be accepted into the hybrid tax credit category - why would it not? They would have to change the wording to exclude it. Quoting from the tax code:
"Federal tax law allows individuals to claim a deduction for the incremental cost of buying a motor vehicle that is propelled by a clean-burning fuel. By combining an electric motor with a gasoline-powered engine, these hybrid vehicles obtain greater fuel efficiency and produce fewer emissions than similar vehicles powered solely by conventional gasoline-powered engines."
That means HYBRIDS qualify.
To exclude the Accord would mean a change, not likely to happen just to "exclude" one car which does not achieve what the Prius achieves.
And remember: The Accord Hybrid is an experiment by Honda, although they would never admit that. They want to see if there is a market for a "no compromise" Hybrid that gets middle-of-the-road MPG numbers but sacrifices NOTHING in the way of performance. And Honda wants to think they can add their IMA system to ANY car in their line.
Just like you can get great mileage in and Echo, Toyota still offers the Prius. Just like the Civic HX offers 40+ MPG EPA, the Civic Hybrid is still there for us. Just as the Accord I4 can get 36 MPG, there is the hybrid accord rated at 37 MPG.
Hybrids are not just for MAX MPG and SUPER CLEAN emissions. They are for reducing fuel usage overall, which they unquestionably accomplish. And with the Accord, they can also be powerful.
And the Accord V6 non-hybrid is only rated at 21/30.
And is Accord Hybrid rated on EPA pollution score yet? I don’t see it at the official (EPA) website. It does have GHG emissions of just 6.0 which is lower than even Accord I-4 with manual transmission (automatic is even higher).
And if it is rated ULEV-LEVII Tier 2 Bin 5, it doesn’t necessarily mean worse rating than SULEVII (in some ways, it is better depending on component being accounted for). Of course at stop lights, HAH would have almost no pollution to contribute towards.
But with all this, we seem to be going back in circles.
If you buy a hybrid new, you may be eligible for a one-time federal income tax deduction of up to $2,000!
Consumers purchasing a new Honda Insight, Honda Civic Hybrid, or Toyota Prius by the end of 2005 are eligible for a "Clean-Fuel" vehicle tax deduction of up to $2,000. Ford believes its new Escape Hybrid will also be eligible under these guidelines.
That is from the government website. All cars so far that qualified are SULEV II. The HAH is not. Until Honda submits the HAH to the IRS for inclusion it will not get the tax break. It is not on the list yet. The Escape Hybrid is now on the list as it is SULEV II.
To give the break to the HAH when there are many PZEV cars that get better mileage would not be fair. I am sure that is being considered. Also the HAH is not zero if it is running the AC as I understand it. So when the clean emissions are needed most in the heat of summer the HAH is running the ICE at a higher emissions than other cars.
How many of those are mid-size sedans?
Take your pick. I'm not sure which besides the PZEV Accord would be equal to or larger in size. At least the BMW & Focus wagons would be. Maybe the Elantra HB. That tax incentive was mainly given for ZEV or PZEV cars. At the time the hybrids were the only ones that qualified. Though I would think the Civic CNG should be in that tax incentive program.
http://www.britegreen.com/004/field2.html
On the freeway at cruise it registered 34.2. No reason not to think it will post mpg as claimed and its very quiet, powerful, and comfortable. Whats not to like? Why so negative? Its a cool car and faster than a regular Accord to boot.
But then we observed that it every time the electric motor engaged, we got static on the FM radio (not on XM or AM). So perhaps the first fix introduced some RF interference problem. My Honda dealer has been very gracious in trying to get this fixed, getting me a loaner, etc, but it is dragging on a very long time (almost a week now). The service folks are talking with the Honda tech support folks daily, but it still isn't fixed.
I do hope that once this problem is fixed, I will have the car a very long time before it has another problem, and by that time I hope that the Honda folks will understand better how to deal with these cars! Right now I feel like a problem pioneer.
Statement 2: Honda is not "hyping" the HAH to be anything it is not. There is not ONE SINGLE misleading advertising line ANYWHERE in Honda's marketing data.
ALL CARS are going to fall short of EPA unless driven VERY CAREFULLY because the tests do not take into account how driving has changed in the last 20 years. The last "minor modification" of the EPA tests was in 1986.
Things have changed a LOT since 1986. More congestion, more people driving City styles, the fact that most people ZOOM from red light to red light as fast as their car can drive, longer commutes, fuel configurations, etc.
The HAH is a 6 cylinder car, and if not driven to maximize the Electric portion of the drivetrain, then the "electric portion of the drivetrain" will not assist in increasing the mileage numbers you will receive.
There is also:
Cold engines perform less well (and its Winter right now).
New cars have additional friction that gets reduced after break-in period.
Don't ignore basic physics when taking into account the "lowered" MPG of the Accord Hybrid right now.
I can ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEE that these people who are complaining in the middle of winter with brand new cars WILL see an increase in the 5K-10K range and after the first oil change AND when the weather warms up.
(( Darn, that was a good post !!! ))
No, but they were developed over 20 years ago and driving habits, highway speeds and performance have changed. Most of the results on the high mpg cars are not achieved by the average, normal driver. While they may not be hype, they are not measuring or testing the correct metrics to accutately provide reasonable mileage information.
But do not blame Honda or the HAH or Hybrids for failures of the EPA testing system.
No Priuses are getting 60 MPG consistently in City driving either. Nor are regular V6 Accords getting 30 MPG highway consistently across the owner base.
You silver tongued devil. A lot of things can affect mileage summer and winter. My point is that the hype is more on the media and forums. When a person goes to buy a new vehicle he expects the numbers for mileage to be close to accurate. Especially in comparing two cars where the only difference is the powerplant. If you are looking at the HAH and the 4 cylinder Accord. The numbers say that you will get better mileage on the HAH. It is not coming out that way. All your justification for the extra money is down the drain. You told your wife we can save X amount per month and make it pay. Even though we all know that it takes 30 years to make up the difference between the HAH and the EX 4 cylinder on gas savings. Maybe as more people report it will go up. Given the available HP of the HAH it is highly unlikely.
And when you speak of accuracy, how valid would it be to use (what you call) hype as the baseline? The fact is that EPA estimates are just that, and DO NOT simulate all driving conditions. It is not just hybrids that show it, but well before hybrids arrived, it was a well documented issue. Hybrids helped pronounce it more than ever, primarily because there was a focus shift towards obtaining “certain mileage” more than ever, and same percentage applied to a 30-50 mpg cars appears to return larger number than does another at 20 mpg.
If I told you that I am getting 22 mpg in my four cylinder Accord, what would you conclude from it, and would you go about using that number from now on? Believe me, I obtained that number (down about 10% from my usual experience) recently when my commute was shortened over an extended period. Driving style didn’t change, but driving did and affected mileage without me having any control over it. It won’t be any different for hybrids, and a reason I have a few questions above for one of the HAH owners.
Your example of a I4 Accord versus the Hybrid is a good way for me to point out that if a person gets, for example, 80% of EPA in the I4, that same person, driving the same way, will likely also get 80% of EPA in the Hybrid.
In other words, you will not "suffer more" because you buy the Hybrid. You might suffer more if you are heavy footed and like to play with that 255 horsepower you have under the hood, but under NORMAL circumstances, you will achieve the same percentage of EPA regardless of WHAT VEHICLE you are driving, assuming you drive with the same STYLE in both vehicles.
Another way of saying that is that if you put ME behind the wheel of an Accord Hybrid, after six months of understanding the way Hybrids respond to driving styles, I think I could get EPA numbers. I'm getting them in my HCH, even with the handicap of a short commute where my car never gets properly warmed up until the very END of my commute.
You put me in ANY car, and think I can get EPA numbers I know for a FACT that Wayne G could EXCEED EPA in any car he drives.
So it all depends on driving styles. If you drive a Hybrid "like a normal car" and see how fast you can jump from red light to red light (which so many people do it's funny) then you are NOT going to achieve EPA.
But that statement is true for ALL cars. They must be driven with common sense and attention to fuel usage to achieve EPA numbers, because of the faulty testing method they use.
Honda Inc. has never misled customers on the EPA's MPG estimates. I usually get a little bit more. Heavy foots on gas pedals and quick braking obviously yield bad MPGs. My 10 years old Accord I4 EX at 200K miles still gives me 30 - 32 MPG on highway runs at 75 MPH. That's why I love my Accords dearly and like to hop back and forth between my baby Accords to drive around and very much enjoy their great performance. In rainy or shiny days, my Accords are amiably there, absolutely loyal and dependable to me to take me everywhere with minimum gas and their top notch power. One most important thing is that the maintenance cost on Accord is much cheaper than those on BMW or Mercedes Benz and Accord's durability and reliability may be same or better.
My HAH is an extremely enjoyable toy with its outstanding Navi. and excellent audio system. It runs like...silk. The graphite color looks absolutely gorgeous. It is so true that the Winter negatively impacts the MPG.
Good post! However, I don't think the EPA is linear across different models with different mpg rates. Those cars with higher mpg ratings, typically hybrids, do seem to "suffer" more, not just absolute mpg but also as a percent. This is especially true of the full-hybrids which seem to actually maximize EPA testing metrics. And if everyone , including the governement , agrees EPA testing is faulty, why not change it!. Surely, historical EPA results are not worth that much so as to preserve them by continuuing forward with faulty testing.
And it is dismaying that it appears the HAH will not meet EPA estimates as well as other Hondas, including HCH and Insight do.
It is simple. The Insight and HCH were designed to get great mileage. The HAH was designed as a street racer. People that buy street racers are not that interested in saving fuel. Those that were under the impression that you could have both are finding out that you cannot. If you want to see how fast you can get to the next stop light your mileage WILL suffer. I think the HAH could get decent mileage in the hands of someone with self control. It is very difficult to have the HP at your command and not use it.
Complete Untruth Alert:
That statement is SO FAR from true I am not even going to waste time disputing it.
Anyone who believes that, I've got some good swampland in Arizona and a Beach House to sell ya.
We cannot say that yet - remember, it is Winter (cold engines get lower MPG) and the Accord Hybrids now on the road are all "Pre-Break-In" period, where all cars have more engine friction and MPG suffers.
Let them get to their first oil change and let the weather warm up, and we'll take a REAL LOOK at those MPG numbers again, and see where they sit.
In the summer they will have the AC running all the time. I am sure that will knock a mile or two off.
I got my best mileage at the end of the summer when it was just cool enough to not use the A/C but still warm enough to get the engine warmed up faster.
Just wait for the cars to break in and then comment. As for AC decreasing the mileage, that will happen in all cars, not just the HAH, and EPA figures are always estimated with the AC off (as far as I know). Now, do you want the HAH to beat its EPA estimate while its running full AC? That's a crazy expectation.
If people bought the HAH for saving money, the math is clear, it would take a lot of years to do that, so you don't have to keep repeating yourself.
And the mountains of previous posts on this subject also make it clear. Now we're making it clear - MOVE ON. There must be something interesting to talk about related to this vehicle apart from gas mileage.
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.
The only thing that is "broken" is the City MPG. 36 for an Escape, 48 for the Civic, and 60 for the Prius. Almost nobody gets those results in city driving.
So the Highway is okay, but the City is broke. The EPA needs to fix it.
I'm getting 47 in City driving in a manual tranny HCH with a short commute where my engine is not properly warmed up. Right now, on my current tank, I'm 215 miles into the tank (all city driving) and I'm sitting at 56.3 on my MPG display for this tank.
I'm "almost nobody."
Otherwise, almost nobody else gets those results in city driving. So the Highway is okay, but the City is broke. The EPA needs to fix it.
Let's hope they do improve the test.
I agree. But how? EPA had a request for submission of ideas a few months ago. I think the period has expired now, but there is no harm in us discussing ways to help them out (if anybody ends up reading our wonderful insights here).
troy
If you live in a wintry area, I bought some rubber ones with deep grooves at Walmart, which holds lots of slush, without spilling out on the carpet.
So, __please___, What about the REST of the car???
How do the HAH's handle their electric motor to gas engine switching? A noticeable transition? Any lurches/shakes/etc?
On freeways - how does the HAH cylinder deactivation work? Noticeable? Any hesitation in getting the power you need/want to pass whatever you need to?
Rattles? Squeaks? How well does the active noise cancellation work for you folks?
How's winter traction? Any hesitation or loss of power when it engages?
How's the electric driven AC?? Does it provide enough cooling for everyone?
Finally...is Honda considering a Hybrid in any small form factor other than a sedan??
Your answers will help me decide whether it is worth a very unpleasant visit to my local high pressure horse trading Honda dealer to take a look at it.
At a minimum they should refund the premium paid over sticker price for such misleading advertising . Comments from other new accord hybrid owners experiences would be welcomed.
miketawas, "Has the future in fuel efficiency already arrived?(& you missed it)" #462, 14 Jan 2005 11:38 pm
I miss my 2000 VW Passat. Here's why:
My HAH lacks a manual transmission
" " " " rear window screen (Helps in PHX)
" " " " discrete confirmation sound when the remote lock is activated. Hit the "lock" button twice and the horn blares startling passersby.
My HAH lacks the automatic 4 dr lock feature when
first entering to drive away. In a city where car jacking is a favorite outdoor sport, that feature is REALLY missed.
My HAH lacks a fold-down rear seat back and has a pretty skimpy trunk.
There are other little details like almost noiseless turn signals that I miss.
That said, I don't regret spending $35K on the HAH. The navigation system is worth $2k and I wanted cruising range. My mileage after only 400 on the odo is 2-3 mpg better than the VW's in the city but I'm not complaining. At 1000 miles, I'll switch to Mobil 1 and expect to get 600 hiway miles on a tankful.
If you do go for the HAH, pick it up as soon as you know it's available. My car had 45 miles on it and the reading on the trip odo (21.3 mpg), makes me think every salesman on the lot probably used it as a dragster.
How would you compare the braking and handling between the HAH and Passat?
Nobody wants to drive a car that keep turning the engine off and on, jerking the car around at low speed! That's very annoying! No class at all. No saving is worth that! Luxury cars are noiseless and super smooth. HAH is just a muscle car bought and shined by blue-collars who don't know better!
It has a small trunk, no fold down rear seat, no spare tire, just a tire repair kit. HAH owners are automatically turned into blue-collars when having a flat. Repairing a flat does not look cool to their girlfriends.
FWD cars are always understeering, with the rear wheels dragged behind. They can never be a true sports car! For true sports handling, rear-wheel or all-wheel-drive is a must!
The front tires of FWD cars have to drive and steer at the same time, which can cause lateral instability during quick lane change at speed! Be very careful when making lane change or the car may roll over. Yet none of Honda's sedans have electronic anti-skid control! That's very cheap and not very smart!
The death rate in Honda Accord is about 170% that in the Camry, according to IIHS statistics. The extra torque with the electric motor would probably increase this death rate.
You guys really should have bought an Acura, or beter yet, a rear-wheel-drive Lexus. Girls drool over these luxury cars. They would think you are very smart, very cool and have a lot of class! All they care about is the fancy name plates and the quiet, smooth, luxry rides! They would care jack about what's under the hoods or how much your MPG is. The more you guys talk about you MPG's, the more your GF's will think you are just cheap skates! You guys will lose your girlfriends for sure with the jerky ride in the HAH, a case of the latent coitus interuptus!!
No decent girls would want to ride around in a blue-collar mobile like the Accord Hybrids
For your girl friends' sake, sell this HAH piece of gimmick and buy a real classy car!