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Hybrid Honda Accord

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Comments

  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,793
    "Toyota has pledged to make hybridization an option on ALL of it's cars by 2010. "

    I too have read this, and I will have to see it to believe it. With the exception of the Chevy full sized pickup (which was hybridized mainly to provide 240 volt outlets), no vehicle larger than 4500 lbs has been hybridized. The larger engines simply consume too much fuel, the vehicles are too heavy, and the frontal area is too great; the increase in MPG is not sufficient to warrant the extra expense. But who knows, maybe by 2012 the Sequoia will be only 4500 lbs, maybe that is what they are assuming.

    And from an environmental standpoint, the extra "green" cost to manufacture (for example) a hybrid Sequoia would never possibly be recouped by higher MPG. It takes the Prius almost to the end of it's normal life cycle to overcome the high initial pollution caused by the manufacturing.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote Stevedebi-"And from an environmental standpoint, the extra "green" cost to manufacture (for example) a hybrid Sequoia would never possibly be recouped by higher MPG. It takes the Prius almost to the end of it's normal life cycle to overcome the high initial pollution caused by the manufacturing."-end quote...

    Did you get that info from Gary? It's an Urban Myth....I have the actual study that shows there is no such thing as a "high initial pollution" caused by the manufacturing process...It is "slightly higher" but nothing like what happens by the end of the cycle:

    The Lifetime pollution figure of the non-hybrid car VASTLY overtakes the hybrid (by about 35% ) when the entire lifetime of the two cars (including recycle) is taken into account.

    Here is a link to my original post which has the PDF link:

    larsb, "The Future of Hybrid Technology" #522, 14 Feb 2005 3:00 pm
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Dealership apathy did not hurt Toyota with the Prius.

    I know this personally. During the summer of 2003 I went to two Toyota dealers and showed interest in the new and upcoming Prius2.

    First sales rep told me that my money would be best spent on a Camry vs. a Prius. In fact any Toyota but a Prius was well spent according to the sales rep.

    At the second dealership the sales rep told me he thought I was crazy in selling my BMW 3 series for a Prius.

    My impression was that a Prius was a car that required little salesmanship!
  • molokaimolokai Posts: 313
    I am sure Toyota dealers have swayed folks away from the Prius as well. I guess only the well informed are driving the Prius as they know what's best. ;)
  • molokaimolokai Posts: 313
    Thanks for that PDF Larsb. I know I'm at leasting partially contributing to a cleaner environment. I love my Prius!
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,967
    The Lifetime pollution figure of the non-hybrid car VASTLY overtakes the hybrid (by about 35% ) when the entire lifetime of the two cars (including recycle) is taken into account.

    This is Toyota's own LCA on the Prius vs comparable Non-hybrid. It is very clear the only significant gain is in CO2 and HC over the 150k mile life of the Prius. It never passes the non-hybrid for particulate matter. It is well toward the end of the life cycle when it gains an advantage over the non-hybrid on both SOx & NOx. I don't know what is so hard to accept about this chart it was part of your link to Toyota. Toyota knows the truth that it is a marginal over all gain.

    image
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Regardless of how the data is sliced, there is no "significant increase" in pollution during the mfg phase that is not "SWALLOWED UP" by the end of the car's lives.....Which is my point......

    There is no huge discrepancy, even by this chart.....
  • molokaimolokai Posts: 313
    I wonder if there is a chart showing that for the truck Gary just bought. Anyone have any data on that?
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,967
    That is very true. What started this was comparing the larger hybrids and the difference in emissions associated with their manufacturing process. Does the percentage of gain on fuel consumption make them a cleaner car overall than a non-hybrid SUV? You do not get the percentages with an RX400h that you get with the Prius. In fact there are RH owners that claim they are not getting any better mileage with the hybrid than they did with the RX300 they traded in. Or in a couple cases only 1-2 MPG increase. I'm not the only one here that is skeptical on the value of larger hybrids. I would not have bought mine if it did not have the engine and towing capacity that I was looking for and they knocked off most of the hybrid premium. I like the way the truck shuts down at stop lights. I hope it gets decent mileage. I will keep you all posted.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,967
    I would be most interested to see one. I am concerned about the batteries that are only warranted for 3 years 36k miles. There are a few things that have a 8yr 80k mile coverage. Mostly controller modules.
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    It is posted here someplace (and confirmed by the service manager at my local dealership) - the batteries are 8/80k as well. You have to look in the warranty book of an Accord hybrid to find the "right" answer :-)

    Dennis
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,793
    "Regardless of how the data is sliced, there is no "significant increase" in pollution during the mfg phase that is not "SWALLOWED UP" by the end of the car's lives.....Which is my point......

    There is no huge discrepancy, even by this chart....."

    Take a look at the chart again, the Prius has a large green area for manufacturing, larger than a conventional ICE car. This is what I was reffering to when I said a "significant increase in pollution during the manufacturing phase". Over the life of the car, this initial "environmental cost" is compensated by the higher MPG, thus burning less fuel and releasing less pollution. One must compare the HAH with the 4 cylinder Accord to determine how much better MPG the hybrid will achieve. BTW, the chart came from a Toyota website. One should also bear in mind that this chart is comparing the Prius to a similar sized vehicle, not an HAH to an ICE Accord. The HAH would fare much worse when compared to the I4 Accord, and probably worse (over the life of the car) than the V6 version also. Those batteries are environmentally expensive to produce.

    For a hybrid SUV, it does not get high enough MPG to compensate like the Prius does. The worse the MPG compared to a comparable ICE vehicle, the longer it would take to compensate for the initial production.

    None of this is to detract from the HAH, which is a fine vehicle. But it must be noted that just being a hybrid does not automatically make the vehicle environmentally friendly compared to a similar ICE vehicle.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    I see your point, but I was just approaching the fact that the "huge negative initial enviro impact" thing is overblown, and it IS.

    Gary at one point had said he thought that Hybrids could never be produced in the USA because of the "pollution during manufacture" which I thought was bunk at the time, and it is still untrue when the life of the car is figured in, at least for the Hybrids we have NOW. Ford is making them here, and Toyota is going to make the Camry here and Nissan the Altima here.

    Time and future studies will tell how the HH and the RX400h fare in that regard.... :D
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,793
    "Gary at one point had said he thought that Hybrids could never be produced in the USA because of the "pollution during manufacture" which I thought was bunk at the time, and it is still untrue when the life of the car is figured in, at least for the Hybrids we have NOW."

    I would agree only for the Civic and Prius hybrids. The HAH doesn't get significantly better gas mileage than it's ICE cousins. The other Hybrids are SUVs, and there is no way they are going to "Break even" on emissions over the normal life of the vehicle (set at 150K miles in the chart). Even if they double the MPG over their ICE contemporaries, they just won't be efficient enough. And the RX400 actually only gets a few MPG better than the RX330 (for most drivers, but don't get me started on the driving patterns)!

    Similarly, the Escape Hybrid gets (at best) about 31 MPG, compared to my 2003 Honda CR-V, which gets 23/27. That is only about 8 and 4 MPG benefit to the hybrid. It won't work out in dollars over the life of the Escape for the return on investment, and it certainly won't work out in environmental numbers.

    RE: Manufacturing in the USA. Well, we are the only G8 nation that didn't ratify the Kyoto accord, so I should think the US would be the most likely country to manufacture a Hybrid...
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote Stevedebi-"RE: Manufacturing in the USA. Well, we are the only G8 nation that didn't ratify the Kyoto accord, so I should think the US would be the most likely country to manufacture a Hybrid..."-end quote

    Yes, but we have the most stringent EPA/CARB setup, as evidenced by the five states which disallow diesels......:D
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,793
    "Yes, but we have the most stringent EPA/CARB setup, as evidenced by the five states which disallow diesels......"

    Which means that one of the other 45 states will get the business of building the Hybrids...

    As well as those 45 MPG diesel cars from VW... no batteries required (except 12 volt).
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,710
    Even if they double the MPG over their ICE contemporaries, they just won't be efficient enough.

    I wonder what the emissions are to mine, refine, and transport those extra few thousand gallons of crude oil and gas? Do these lifetime emissions charts take that factor into account?

    I for one would like to see the data (not supposition) on lifetime emissions of a hybrid SUV like the HH or RX400h vs. one of similar power that gets about 1/2 the average mpg. With the conventional SUV polluting at least twice as much during its running life (and considering the emissions rating of V8s isn't very good), that would be a huge gap to make up during manufacture and disposal. And throw in the gas-production emissions while you're at it.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,967
    The Toyota Prius study is the only one I have seen. I agree that the pollution from the production of the oil should be taken into consideration. I disagree on your assumption of twice the mileage. That is not happening. You can compare the hybrid SUVs to bigger heavier V8 SUVs if you like. That opens up the debate to compare lighter hatchbacks, wagons and sedans to the Hybrid CUV/SUVs. For example the HAH will outrun the RX400h carry as many passengers and gets better mileage. Some would argue in equal or better comfort. Or if you need AWD the Subaru Wagons get equal or better mileage carry as many people and as much luggage. The RX330 is still the best vehicle to compare to the RH and the non-hybrid Highlander to the HH. That lets you know if you are doing anything more for the environment by going hybrid. Anyone can make the case that the RX400h is much greener than the Hummer2. To be realistic we need to make the match as close as possible.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,710
    If people want/need only the performance of a regular Highlander or regular RX330, or a regular Accord, they will buy one of those, and not pay the steep premium for the hybrid versions. But if someone wants V8-class power and high mpg to boot, they'll buy a HH or RX400h. That is why I compare those kinds of vehicles. Your kind of comparison completely ignores one of the major reasons people buy the hybrid versions of the Highlander, RX330, and Accord--because of the extra performance, without a penalty in fuel economy. Also, why does everyone who buys a hybrid have to do it to "do more for the environment"? Does everyone who buys a vehicle do it to help the environment? That's a nice thought, but it's not so.
  • SylviaSylvia Posts: 1,636
    Seems like we have strayed off into more general hybrid talk instead of the HAH. If you want to talk general or comparisons, please do so in one of discussions for that.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote gagrice-"The Toyota Prius study is the only one I have seen."-end quote

    Gary, you did not go look at that original study I posted, the PDF which I posted again yesterday? If not, GO read it and get yourself more educated about cradle to grave emissions, so you can present a more educated and well-rounded opinion when we have these discussions !! :D ;)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,710
    Edmunds.com posted recently some spy pics on the '06 Accord. The changes are much less than I expected, although the new rear-end treatment is an improvement IMO, even if bland and un-original. But the article notes that there will be only minor tweaks inside the car. From other reports I was expecting much more in the way of tweaks inside and out. :(
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    From other reports I was expecting much more in the way of tweaks inside and out.

    What would be the point of major changes to the Accord when it will go through a major overhaul in a year or two after the date of the 06 intro.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,710
    Because Honda almost always makes significant changes in Year 4, like clockwork, even though a new design is coming in two more years. The changes they made to the Civic for '04, for example, were more significant than the changes for the '06 Accord. You'd have to ask Honda what their point is. I figure it's to keep their cars appearing fresh, to compete better with other cars that have been redesigned since the current gen debuted. Other automakers, e.g. Toyota, Nissan, and Hyundai, do the same thing.
  • I have recently purchased an Accord Hybrid after shopping around for some time. I live on the South Shore of Boston (42 miles South of my job in Cambridge), and am a sporting driver (previous car a VW Jetta GLI with 6-speed manual), but had gotten VERY tired of shifting interminably in stop-and-go traffic and getting 22 mpg on premium fuel. I shopped around and paid a reasonable price (just under sticker with a good trade) for my Accord Hybrid with NAV system. I have been getting 33 mpg on regular gas, with excellent performance, in my hybrid, and my wife and I just returned from an 1100 mile trip which was very comfortable and netted 35 mpg. I am on faculty at MIT and can appreciate the technology without expecting to break even on the cost of a hybrid - when fuel cells make semse and can provide superb performance, I'll buy one. Till then, Honda has my vote!

    Happily commuiting in my new Accord Hybrid....
  • i found this article on the 05 accord if any one is interested its pretty sweet n well written very informative.

    http://associatedcontent.com/content.cfm?content_type=article&content_type_id=701

    im thinkin about getting one so this helped me out a lot!
    anyone got any other stuff for me on them?
  • s2khahs2khah Posts: 26
    I am on the list for an HAH and plan to get an aftermarket sunroof installed later.
    I would like to hear feedback from those who have had this done or have knowledge of an HAH with one installed. I know Honda does not condone this, but I do not have any problems with that. I also would like to know it there were problems with the active noise cancellation system since the front microphone is so close to the probable roof location.
    Thanks and looking forward to many great years with my HAH.
  • molokaimolokai Posts: 313
    I would advise against it. Most aftermarket sunroofs are not as good as the factory units. Later down, you may get leaks and it's noiser too. Don't forget the loss of headroom and structural integrity which is forfeited.
  • s2khahs2khah Posts: 26
    Molokai, Thanks for the input but I have an experienced installer in mind in PA. They use a German roof (that is OEM on many German cars). I also had one installed on a 93 Camry by him and it worked flawlessly. I believe the Model (not the mfg.) is Hollander. I don't have much worry, but that is a consideration. I figured a loss of about 2" of headroom which I can believe is not a showstopper. That is if I don't get one that opens above the roof (not likely). The installer has already done one HAH and has not heard complaints from the buyer yet.

    Of course I wouldn't be asking if HAH offered one as an option.
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