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Audi S4 vs BMW M3

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Comments

  • m3_r1m3_r1 Posts: 32
    It's amazing how far some people will go to spin the truth, distort information, and basically attempt to blur the facts about a car with serious reliability issues. I have no idea where you get your information. If you read the REAL CONSUMER REPORTS article on these cars you would have a better understanding what is actually factual. When I give information from consumer reports I simply cut and paste and let the facts speak for themselves. I've done this before and I can do it again:

    CONSUMER REPORTS:
    "The S4 is quick, has a beautifully crafted interior, and delivered the best fuel economy of the group. It has a very tight rear seat, though, and on our track it lacked the at-the-limit handling finesse of the BMW and Cadillac."

    "See a summary of test findings and Quick Picks--the choices that merit first consideration.
    In a sports car we look for quickness, agility, and responsiveness. Comfort, convenience, and fuel
    economy are important, but less so than with regular cars. Of the nine cars listed in the chart below, we recommend three. The Audi S4 (1) and Cadillac CTS-V (5) have had below-average reliability in their standard versions, the A4 and CTS, respectively, so we cannot recommend them. We lack reliability data on the Mazda RX-8 (4), Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution (6), Pontiac GTO (8), and Chrysler Crossfire (9).
    The Ratings rank vehicles based on their overall score in our tests, irrespective of price or reliability. Recommended models ( ) not only tested well but have shown average or better reliability, and performed at least adequately if crash-tested or included in a government rollover test. Quick Picks are recommended models that in our judgment deserve special consideration based on your needs".

    All four cars have a strong engine and manual transmission, and can accelerate from 0 to 60 mph in less than 6 seconds. The Audi and Cadillac are four-door sedans, while the BMW and Pontiac are two-door coupes. The Audi is all-wheel drive, while the others use rear-wheel drive. The M3 is the only one that meets all of our criteria for being recommended. (See CR Quick Recommendations for more details.)

    If Consumer Reports is not enough, I'll post something from yesterday that I'm still waiting on a response on.

    SERIOUS ISSUES TO CONSIDER BEFORE BUYING A S4:

    1. When you visit a dealer and learn just how much less the S4 is really worth on trade in in comparison to the BMW M3. FOR THOSE WHO DON'T BELIEVE THIS GO TO KELLY BLUE BOOK AND SEE FOR YOURSELVES. Just type in both cars with simular equipment and see the results.

    2. LEARNING THAT THERE ARE TEN TIMES THE AMOUNT OF PERFORMANCE PRODUCTS for the M3 compared to what is available for the S4.

    3. Comparing the number of independent shops that specialize in repairing BMW's as to those that repair Audi's.
  • _matty_matty Posts: 28
    It's amazing how far some people will go to spin the truth, distort information, and basically attempt to blur the facts about a car with serious reliability issues.

    I just told you EXACTLY where I got my information. I got all of my information from the
    Consumer Reports New Car Preview 2006. I just bought it today. I have no interest in misleading anyone. I just read the #'s and posted them and I didn't change anything. What's your issue?

    Older Audi S4's (2000 and 2001) had reliability issues. They didn't make them in 2002 and 2003. Older M3's also had reliability issues (2002 and 2003), but you don't hear me griping about any of them. The past does not predict the future.
  • m3_r1m3_r1 Posts: 32
    The last comparison has to do with predicted new car reliability and this is the category that I question the most, and not because I'm trying to defend the S4. The M3 scored -17% which barely falls into the "average" rating. Average included everything from +20% to -20%. The S4 scored -46% which barely falls into the "worst" rating.

    I couldn't have said this better myself. -17% for the BMW vs -46% for the S4. These numbers are light years apart. I would be embarrassed to admit my car company had that type of numbers for quality. You are beginning to see the light. Believe it or not past behavior can be a predictor of things to come. In the 1980's and 90's Audi was a joke for reliability in comparison to BMW and Mercedes. Using your own words you admit that the early 2000 models had reliability problems. So now we are to believe that Audi has finally gotten it's act together with the latest addition RS4 after all these years? Perhaps Audi should focus on quality rather than never ending name changes, over rated v8's and all wheel drive.
    Audi may be good at throwing various models at BMW but building quality cars is not one of them. The evidence speaks for itself. Let's see is it S4 or RS4? :confuse: (who knows these days).
  • _matty_matty Posts: 28
    I couldn't have said this better myself. -17% for the BMW vs -46% for the S4. These numbers are light years apart.
    Well, yeah. Like I said, I'm not out to mislead anyone and that's what Consumer Reports indicated, so that's what I posted. The #'s are not quite as far apart as you may think though. The way CR's scale is set up, if the S4 was 2 percentage points better and the M3 was 4 percentage points worse the cars would have fallen into the same "below average" category. According to their data, CR absolutely loved the S4 with the exception of past reliability issues. Audi reliability has been improving though and they have made good progress in their 2004+ models. They still have some work to do though, but if the trend continues they should be out of that rut soon.
    I would be embarrassed to admit my car company had that type of numbers for quality.
    Not really. I'm saying this because I believe that Audi reliability will continue to improve. Besides, they had better continue to improve if they want to stay in business, right? I guess I'm seeing it as a glass half full, where BMW owners who like to bash Audi's see it as a glass half empty. The other reason that I'm not that phased about those #'s is because of what I stated earlier concerning CR basing their reliability #'s on older models.
    Using your own words you admit that the early 2000 models had reliability problems.
    You bet they did. It was mostly due to engine issues with the V6's that they wisely discontinued. The V8's in the newer S4's are much better and they are continuing to improve. We all know that Audi has had past reliability issues. They were on the verge of bankruptcy back in the early 1980's, but they rebounded and I expect them to continue to improve, at least if they want my business.
    So now we are to believe that Audi has finally gotten it's act together with the latest addition RS4 after all these years?
    Why not? Let's wait and see before we pass judgement. So far things are looking on the up and up. I have owned my 2005 S4 for 1 year now and I have not had any problems with it. Careful with the RS4 name though. I sense you're being facicious here, but the 2006 S4 and the 2006 RS4 that will be introduced in spring or summer of 2006 are completely different vehicles. The upcoming RS4 is a 414 hp monster with a great looking V8 that redlines at 8250 rpm's. How could any car enthusiast not like that? The rear end is also flared out along with a few other mods that make the RS4 distinguishable from the S4 body. I've been considering getting one, but I don't know if I want to wait until next summer. They say next spring or summer, but as with any new vehicle I'll believe it when I see it.
    Believe it or not past behavior can be a predictor of things to come.
    That can be the case, but I prefer not to get locked into dogmatic thinking. Again, glass half full.
    over rated v8's and all wheel drive.
    I don't think either of those are overrated. Why do you think the V8 engine is overrated? Elaborate.

    Keep in mind, all of the info I just threw out is based on CR information. I'm not just talking out of my you-know-what. Here's some more info the 2006 Buyer's Guide gave with respect to Audi, BMW and Mercedes.

    Audi: The A4 got CR's highest possible recommendation. It's the only Audi that CR currently recommends.
    BMW: The 5-series, X-series, M3, and Z4 are all recommended by CR. None of them got CR's highest recommendation, but they are recommended none the less. Strangely though, the high end BMW's got very bad overall ratings.
    Mercedes: Not a single Mercedes model is recommended by CR. In fact, black circles are everywhere in the pages where they rate the numerous Mercedes models. Their models got much worse ratings overall than the Audi's. For those not familiar with how CR rates vehicles- Black circles are not a good thing. I was surprised by this. I kind of thought Mercedes set the standard among the German car makers. They have certainly fallen off their pedestal, according to CR. :lemon:

    That said, right now BMW is #1, Audi is #2, and Mercedes is nowhere in sight. If Audi continues to improve their reliability issues though they will give BMW a run for their money. I'm sure Audi is aware of their past reliability problems though and they had better continue to improve if they want to keep selling cars. The A4 is a winner and nobody can deny it, but they don't have enough horsepower for my taste so you won't see me driving one.
  • m3_r1m3_r1 Posts: 32
    If looking at the dismal past of Audi quality is considered looking at the glass half full then so be it. Only in the mind of some S4 drivers is Audi poor quality not important. Perhaps this is why so few Audi's are seen on the road. THE PUBLIC DOES NOT WANT THEM LIKE THEY WANT OTHER CARS. I think they call it the law of supply and demand. Yet some Audi fans attempt to spin this fact into a plus by claiming that they ejoy being one of the few on the road. This informed consumer happens to know better.
    It seems that some of you S4 owners either spin information to your advantage or you flat out ignore the points that expose the S4 for the pretender it is. The S4 or what ever they call it these days is trying so hard to make the public believe it's a true contender with the M3. However those of us who are informed know better. You took time to answer only the points in my last post that were somewhat easy to approach. Now let's try this again. To make it easy for you I posted the final points as to why I could never own that car and why possibly the public does not turn out in droves to purchase them. When the S4 is Consumer Reports Pick over the M3 then at that time I will change my position. But as for now M3 :) S4 :cry:

    SERIOUS ISSUES TO CONSIDER BEFORE BUYING A S4:

    1. When you visit a dealer and learn just how much less the S4 is really worth on trade in in comparison to the BMW M3. FOR THOSE WHO DON'T BELIEVE THIS GO TO KELLY BLUE BOOK AND SEE FOR YOURSELVES. Just type in both cars with simular equipment and see the results. (Dealers don't care too much about all wheel drive at trade in)

    2. LEARNING THAT THERE ARE TEN TIMES THE AMOUNT OF PERFORMANCE PRODUCTS for the M3 compared to what is available for the S4. (confusion over what the name will finally be might have something to do with this)

    3. Comparing the number of independent shops that specialize in repairing BMW's as to those that repair Audi's. (I think there are some independent VW shops that may offer service)
  • stehersteher Posts: 37
    Hi,

    does Audi sell different cars in the U.S. compared to Europe?
    Over here in Germany/Europe there is NO difference between Audi and BMW in terms of image/prestige, sales-figures and reliability. Audi is seen to have the best built-qualitiy and has made the biggest steps among the big Three (MB, BMW, Audi) in the last years. 20 years ago, Audi had to fight against it's image of being driven only by old men, but that has changed completely and everybody sees them on the top together with BMW and MB.
    And these point of view comes from the country, which is known/called (by many) to build the best cars in the world!
    S4 and M3 are definitely in the same league but offer different packets: M3 is the hardliner, which plays out its cards on the racetrack where even a 911 will have problems. The S4 is more like a GT. Offers more space, 4 doors with nearly the same specs and put its focus more on comfort luxury and highspeed-manners.
    So everyone here, who says either of them is the better car, will be wrong. M3 AND S4 have its pros and cons and one have to decide which of them fullfill his needs the best.

    Greetings from Germany
  • M2R1
    I sincerely hope after you finish exposing the all wheel drive conspiracy that Audi has visited on us poor dumb consumers, you can turn your attention to more important matters of national security. Such as investigating the second shooter on the grassy knoll
    At this point I could care less if Pat cancels this post, just so I don't have to read your boring, tired, biased opinions. It's not the opinion's so much as the lack of imagination, and sheer absence of a sense of humor that you exhibit.
    Your tired rambling has succeeded to drive my tired butt back to my mountain bike. {which makes my wife leap for joy at the thought of my ever growing belly diminishing like you your intellect.}
    Finally, I think consumer reports carries more weight in a Japanese car forum. Debating the reliability of German cars is Laughable. If anyone buys an Audi or BMW for reliability then there head ought to be examined. They can join in the line right behind you. And finally for the second time, if RS4, and S4 really confuses you, take your tippy cup, and your blanky and go to there respective reviews on this fine website and I think :confuse: maybe your confusion will be cleared up.
    Pat please forgive me for this latest trespass against my sworn word to mend my ways, and my mouth, but when genius meets a simpleton, it is my...er his duty to lighten things up and make it interesting. I fall to my knees at your mercy
  • m3_r1m3_r1 Posts: 32
    You posed a very good question. Personally I'm not sure if Audi sends the same cars here that it builds at home. I do know that German cars do not have to meet the same safety specifications as american cars have to meet if they are not shipped here. For example when a German car is imported to America safety glass must be installed and more restrictive emissions standards where as German cars that stay in country do not have to meet such requirements. Other than what I have shared I not sure if the cars are the same.
  • rjlaerorjlaero Posts: 659
    If you think I'm going to live my life by Consumer Reports and nothing else, you're crazy. It's only 1 opinion and there's a slew of other reviews by numerous car magazines & publications.

    We're all spending way too much time defending the S4 against (1) BMW loon, so it's time to move on to sensible people.
  • _matty_matty Posts: 28
    Since you have been responding to my posts, albeit in a slightly immature and disrespectful way, I will respond to your 3 points before I leave this thread altogether. The host really should kill this thread. It's dead anyway, it has been for a while, and while I have tried to post nothing but hard facts by Consumer Reports, I keep getting stupid responses like "I don't know where you get you information". BMW owners like you don't seem to listen, nor to you want to take part in constructive dialogue. You're only here to berate people who own Audi's to make yourself feel better about what you bought.

    1. I don't think it's a good idea to trade in a car. Dealers will never give you what the car is worth. Trading in cars is a ripoff and people who do it without a second thought must have more money than sense. It's an issue of convenience, nothing more. CR gave both the M3 and the S4 identical "best" ratings when it comes to resale value. They made no mention of trade-in values.

    2. Who cares? This is by no means a "serious issue". It's petty.

    3. Again, who cares? The only reason someone should care about something like this is if they live in the sticks and are faced with traveling a great distance to get their car fixed.

    Fact: The Audi A4 is more highly recommended by Consumer Reports than any BMW, and don't even try to claim otherwise because I'm reading it straight out of the Consumer Reports New Car Preview 2006 as I'm sitting here. Also, with the exception of the engine and a few minor mods, the A4 and the S4 are pretty much the same car. CR is down on the S4's reliability based on older models that share NOTHING in common with the 2004+ S4's. That makes their reliability claim meaningless because they are comparing an apple with an orange.

    Fact: There are more Audi's on the road in Germany than BMW or Mercedes. The cars they import to the US are mechanically identical to those in Germany with the exception of cars being sold in the Northeast US and in California because of emissions standards, and those are just minor modifications. If you're claiming that Americans are stupid for buying Audi's then you're making the same statement about Germans as well. I've been to Germany on more than one occasion and I've never met a group of people who are more particular about what they choose to drive.

    Finally, Consumer Reports is NOT the last word on European cars. Audi's may have a not-so-great reputation for reliability, but BMW's are not so great either. If you want the best in reliability, go buy a Toyota, though you're not going to look as good nor feel as good driving one.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    we can kill it or we can ignore any posts that are nothing more than sarcasm and derision and continue amongst those of us who are truly interested in a serious and respectful comparison of the cars ... that last choice gets my vote, because I think we have enough folks who are contributing in a reasonable and productive manner to sustain this. We just need to, well, I already said. :)
  • ok....here goes.
    i just test drove last week an M3 with the competition package and an S4. while both are beautiful automobiles the edge goes to the S4 for every day use. the awd, 4 doors, V8,and the available tiptronic and 6 speed transmissions make the Audi infinitely more practical and useful than the one dimensional M3. for the "show your taillights" crowd the M3 is your only option but for the other 99.9% of the car buying public the Audi is much more enjoyable. and for the record...i love BMW's and Audi's. i've owned an 03 M5 and currently have a SWB A8 so certainly can't be accused of being a misguided fan boy! :P
  • m3_r1m3_r1 Posts: 32
    Actually I own a Toyota Supra Turbo and I do look and feel as good as when I drive my M3. I'm not sure what cars are more abundant in Germany because I live in the United States and Consumer Reports caters to those of us who live here. You claim the Audi A4 is more recommended than BMW by Consumer Reports? Get real, In your last post you actually claimed the Audi was rated worse by Consumer Reports and BMW was rated Average. Now you claim the same Consumer Reports puts the Audi ahead of BMW? I'm not sure what you are really quoting from but it's certainly not the Consumer Reports I read. ONCE AGAIN THE REAL CONSUMER REPORTS.

    CONSUMER REPORTS:
    "The S4 is quick, has a beautifully crafted interior, and delivered the best fuel economy of the group. It has a very tight rear seat, though, and on our track it lacked the at-the-limit handling finesse of the BMW and Cadillac."

    "See a summary of test findings and Quick Picks--the choices that merit first consideration.
    In a sports car we look for quickness, agility, and responsiveness. Comfort, convenience, and fuel
    economy are important, but less so than with regular cars. Of the nine cars listed in the chart below, we recommend three. The Audi S4 (1) and Cadillac CTS-V (5) have had below-average reliability in their standard versions, the A4 and CTS, respectively, so we cannot recommend them. We lack reliability data on the Mazda RX-8 (4), Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution (6), Pontiac GTO (8), and Chrysler Crossfire (9).
    The Ratings rank vehicles based on their overall score in our tests, irrespective of price or reliability. Recommended models ( ) not only tested well but have shown average or better reliability, and performed at least adequately if crash-tested or included in a government rollover test. Quick Picks are recommended models that in our judgment deserve special consideration based on your needs".

    All four cars have a strong engine and manual transmission, and can accelerate from 0 to 60 mph in less than 6 seconds. The Audi and Cadillac are four-door sedans, while the BMW and Pontiac are two-door coupes. The Audi is all-wheel drive, while the others use rear-wheel drive. The M3 is the only one that meets all of our criteria for being recommended. (See CR Quick Recommendations for more details.)

    You can claim all day that you bought something that says this or that. Because we are on the web I use a source that anyone on the web can use and check for themselves without having to take my word for it.
    You answered my points by saying "who cares or I don't care". Myself and millions of others like me care about resale values, the availability of performance upgrades, and shops that can expertly repair a car if the dealer happens to be backed up and can't take care of you for a few weeks. Yes, there are many who do care about the things I have written about and have taken the time to thank me for with informing them concerning the facts.
    Nice try though ;) .
  • ok .. i do agree that you can own any car you want but if you can't drive it it wont beat the lowest end kia .. but since you talk like a pro and since im pretty confident in the way i can drive my stage 3 dinan m3, if i did happen to see you i would run all over you bc even in stick the fastest you can get that s4 with AWD, woo hoo is 5.3 .. thats if you are car and driver perfcet .. i've run my car to 4.7 on tracks around CT and i feel good about that time. and yes the audi has a V8 that still cant beat that amazing straight 6 that has always kept that M3 on top.. and you cannot bring up the point that its a better all year car because if we were talking about that then yes audi is better but not at accelleration nothing will ever beat the M Power Engine. ONCE AGAIN THERE ARE SOME FACTS FOR YA ..
  • To sum up everything here.....I currently own a Audi S4 which is amazing!! It will take any M3 any day any time...I am pushing out 22PSI on my twin turbo's (try to do that in a M3...I don't think soo)...I am running a 4.1-4.2 0-60....No stock car is amazing unless you spend over $250,000....It is a personal opinion...the AWD will pull like an animal off the line....I think that that the V6 bi-turbo is better designed and is much, much more able to be upgraded than the V8.....and best of all, my car is only Stage II.....in the next couple of months I am going to do a Stage III conversion.....around 35PSI twin turbo....
  • m382m382 Posts: 35
    Hi burningrubber. You're entitled to your opinion, but any car in my opinion that has to be tuned to 22 psi to compete with a naturally aspirated engine in my eyes is...well...underachieving. Like no one gives credit to any SAAB or Volvo engine, (because they're ALL basically turbocharged) I don't think this particular engine deserves anymore merit than a naturally aspirated V6 that supplies more than enough power. BMW isn't concerned with "cheap horsepower" wars, if that were the case they'd throw a blower on every car made...yet...there isn't one single forced induction BMW (other than aftermarket). They are concerned with quality, and for that, there's very little argument about which top tier luxury cars are made the best....Audi is still pawing at the level that BMW and Mercedes have created. For a car to be boosted within an inch of it's life to compete with other naturally aspirated cars in it's class says something. And or your other comment, "No stock car is amazing unless you spend over $250,000"...like I said, you are entitled to your opinion...but that's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. There are plenty of cars out there that are amazing that don't cost over $250,000....(you could even find them on this website)...and how many cars OVER $250,000 have you driven??
  • sookssooks Posts: 7
    I dont want to really rain on your parade... but it really sounds like your full of ****.... I dont mean to be harsh or critical cause i love audi's... I have a 2002 s4... I have a hard time believing that your first of all running 22psi on stage 2..... maybe you are... but then running a 4.1... I have a stage 3.. and i dont think i run a 4.1 and there is NO way you will run 35 psi.. I dont know of any street cars pushing 35 psi that are non-diesel. Ive heard of a few cars doing just over 30, but they are also puttng down huge hp. Right now, autospeedperformance just came out with a GT25R twin turbo kit for the s4 thats making about 500 whp.. which is the highest ive seen and its max boost is 28. So please tell me what you have done to your car to be making these numbers....
  • sookssooks Posts: 7
    I have to say, that was a very lame argument. What makes "cheap horsepower".. just because it comes from a turbo?? so what.. Horsepower is horsepower, i dont care where it comes from. Why is it underachieving if its using a turbo. I would call it maximizing output. No one is giving credit to volvo's or saab's because they arent tuned for performance... same reason no one is giving a 323i credit for being fast... Those are quite frankly dumb statements. And another thing, audis were by far boosted from an inch of their life.. if anything the b5 (2.7l TT v6) wasnt all that highly tuned stock.. thats why its such a popular modding car, because you can unleash a lot of power from it. The stock turbos and ecu's were restrictive. Now you want to show me where there is much room for modification on an m3.. There is a little, but your not going to find huge gains, and now show me which one is pushed to an inch of its life. But dont get me wrong..i am a big fan of both cars. BMW did make an impressibve engine to be getting that output from an inline6. I have an s4, but if i didnt have to drive in winter i prob woulda gotten an m3 just cause i think its more aggresive looking. My other odd point that i saw a few pages back was that the CR report said that they both hold similar value.. fact is M3 is holding its value better than the b6 (v8) s4.
  • rjlaerorjlaero Posts: 659
    As for Volvo, I drove their 300hp R version and it felt quite "junky" to me. Sweeks, rattles, cheap plastic everywhere. Didn't feel very quick and the engine wheezed like it had asmatha. I can't see paying 45k for this car.

    I'd rather have the 255hp Sline 3.2 Quattro over the Volvo 300hp Turbo R anyday. The Volvo isn't anywhere in the same book in terms of fit and finish and overall solid feel.
  • m382m382 Posts: 35
    ok when repyling to peoples messages it's probably best to ask questions first what they meant and get the story straight before you jump to conclusions to prove a case that...quite frankly doesn't exist. cheap horsepower in the context in which I was reffering to is in the fact that yes, although "horsepower is horsepower"....as you say it, but I'm talking ENGINE STAND ALONE....as you may notice I wrote "under-achieving ENGINE" not under-achieving engine AND FORCED INDUCTION...that being said onto my second point...that being your ranting about the car being tuned within an inch of its life...I was reffering to the Audi with "22psi",...and for the record nowhere did I state that the BMW 323 was fast, I have an M3...that doesn't make me a BMW groupie...Oh not to mention the last I checked the Vovlo S60R was "tuned for performance" or at least that's Volvos take...but that's neither here nor there. Fact of the matter is....how many people give a [non-permissible content removed] either way which car can be "most modded", you tell me how large of the population buys an M3 or S4 so that they can tune them....these aren't cars in NEED of more power, nor are they cheap, these aren't civics...the entire argument on the forum about which car is better is pretty retarded...one's a capable sedan and one's a capable coupe....throw looks out the window because that's subjective...now what you have is "what car does what you need it" and that's how you choose which car is better.....for you that is
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