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Hemi vs. Hybrid! Japan goes Tech, US goes ICE! Who's really winning??



  • I said, replace ICE and Power Splitting Device(PSD) with fuel cell stack to turn into FCHV. You need to review how HSD really works.

    HSD can maintain battery State Of Charge(SOC) minimum level much better than Honda's mild hybrid IMA design. HSD can climb hill and charge battery at the same time. On the other hand, IMA requires you to hit the brake to charge the battery.

    If 76HP Atkinson engine is anemic, how come Prius(2,890lbs) accelerate faster than Insight(1,900lbs) from 0-60 or 30-60 mph? HSD superiority will be obvious when there are larger hybrids to compare with. I can't wait for Accord hybrid vs. Camry hybrid.

  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi BadToy:

    ___As for pulling the Prius from the market, I was being facetious myself ;-) As for Japanese performance and environmental std.’s, the 04 Prius is not even a PZEV in Japan’s home market! An SULEV is a possibility but it is not a PZEV. On the performance side of the equation, they sold the original Prius with even less performance then the one they sold here. I don’t think performance matters to them as much as it does us for some reason? More congestion possibly?

    ___Usbseawolf2000, pull the PSD and ICE to make the FCHV? You seem to be missing the fact that a Fuel Cell is an electricity producer, not a mechanical energy producer. Once you are back to electricity, all you have are MG sets and the only thing a Hybrid’s pack can do is add assist to the Fuel Cell’s electricity already being produced. If the fuel cell can be sized properly, the pack and extra MG sets would be a total waste.

    ___As for the IMA in the HCH or Insight, you need to look up how it works. Not only is their charging without your foot on the brake, there is charging while climbing hills, coasting down hills, accelerating, and while cruising merrily along down the highway. You can even speed up charging simply by turning the headlights on.

    ___In regards to the 04 Prius’ anemic Atkinsonized ICE, the 5-speed Insight is anemic as hell as well and I know this to be a fact because I own one! The part you are missing is that once the pack’s are drained some given amount in any of the Hybrid’s, the performance of the entire system suffers a given amount. In the case of the Insight 5-speed without a completely drained pack, it can smoke the 01-03 Prius even if it had a full pack. It can smoke the 04 Prius w/ anywhere from ~ ½ to 0% SOC by a long shot as well. That does not make it a performance automobile by any stretch of ones imagination. The only reason that the 04 Prius can make it to 60 in 9.8 - 11.2 seconds is because the pack offers the extra amount of energy need to accomplish the task. Once the pack is drained even a small percentage, its performance begins to suffer until such time you are back to the 76 HP 1.5 L and when you rely on it alone, you may as well get out and run for all the faster that thing is ;-) Just kidding on the run part but anything that can do 0 - 60 in 14.8 seconds will outrun the 04 Prius in that condition. I cannot think of an automobile that is that slow to 60 mph off the top of my head other then the 01-03 Prius with a drained pack, can you?

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,687
    that are close, like the VW van, perhaps the Mini non-S/C? Chevy Aveo? Jetta 2.0? Kia Sorento? There are a number of 12-13-second 0-60s on the market right now, at various price points.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 21,848
    would at least be able to blow off a '79 Cutlass with a 260 Diesel? ;-)
  • muffin_manmuffin_man Posts: 865
    Hey, the Aveo is good for sub-9 second runs! Don't throw it in with those other junkers. It's practically rocket powered.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    There have been lots of high mileage econoboxes, thing is Prius doesn't feel at all like an econobox. That may be why demand is so high, there isn't the usual trade-offs associated with very fuel efficient cars.

  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Posts: 1,978
    The Prius feels like an econobox to me.

    It is slow, it doesn't corner well, stopping is up in the air (some reports show short distances and others long; not consistant), when I drove one it was noisey, especially with the ICE running. The sound insulation is pretty thin and its highway noise, stealth or not is pretty noisey about the equvialnt of other economy cars, certainly not at a luxury level.

    What I have right now is very quiet, very good performance, very reliable, very smooth, much better stereo, more plush, much better handling, much better braking, better looks, leater, powers seats ,sunroof and yes truly automaitc headlights.

    The EPA is 18/25 on a 2002 Lexus IS300 5-speed manual shift. However, I only get about 21 with a daily 25 mile commute ( 15 miles at 80-85mph,5 miles at 50-65 mph, and 5 miles stop/go/stop go.

    So would the increased mileage be worht it ? Not from the Prius.

    I think the upcoming Accord Hybrid is a better solution :)

    Not to cross post, more information on the other many many Edmund Hybrid links, but demand for Prius might fall off very sharply in a couple of months.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    For 50% more money than a Prius, the IS300 had better be better in every respect than a Prius! If you're willing to spend $30k+ for a car, the IS300 is a fine one, and I expect the Accord hybrid will be also. I think it's good though that there are still some hybrids available in the $20k range. Not everyone can afford a $30k car.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,687
    midnight was saying that from the perspective of the owner of a $30K sedan, Prius felt very much econobox to him. Can't argue with that - beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

    FWIW, I never noticed noise levels in the new Prius to exceed those of other similarly priced Toyotas - Corolla, or my own Matrix at the time. And the gas engine is not noticeably noisier or coarser than either of those.

    Some of what midnight says here
    "What I have right now is very quiet, very good performance, very reliable, very smooth, much better stereo, more plush, much better handling, much better braking, better looks, leater, powers seats ,sunroof and yes truly automatic headlights."

    could also be said in comparison with corolla/matrix, which has an available moonroof, more powerful stereos, and automatic headlights. But if you compare the base $20K Camry on many of these items, it would come out ahead. The Camry certainly has better sound suppression for the cabin, and a quieter engine than the Prius' ICE.

    But the Prius is the smoothest around for its class, of that I am convinced. And stuff like the handling does not relate to "feel" IMO, but rather to performance.

    If we accept that Prius is probably going to be Toyota's entry-level hybrid for a long time to come, I wonder how long they can hold the line on the $20K price tag. The thing is, with increasing competition from the Koreans and soon the Chinese, the price of true econobox compacts (ICEs) isn't likely to rise much for some time to come, either.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi Nippononly:

    ___I don’t know if this matters to some or not but the 03/04 Corolla is relatively quiet on the road once the engine settles down into a steady cruise … While it is accelerating however, it is a bit ungainly in the noise emission department just like the 04 Prius.

    2004 Prius - Edmunds:

    Db @ Idle: 53/lo
    Db @ Full Throttle: 71
    Db @ 70 mph Cruise: 74

    2001 Prius - Car & Driver:

    Db @ Idle: 45
    Db @ Full Throttle: 70
    Db @ 70 mph Cruise: 70

    2003 Corolla LE - Car & Driver

    Db @ Idle: 42
    Db @ Full Throttle: 79
    Db @ 70 mph Cruise: 70

    2002 Camry (SE w/ V6) - Car & Driver. I would think the 4 cylinder would have higher dB output but I couldn’t find dB output for the 02-04 Camry LE w/ the 4.

    Db @ Idle: 37
    Db @ Full Throttle: 70
    Db @ 70 mph Cruise: 67

    2003 Honda Civic Hybrid Manual - Car & Driver

    Db @ Idle: 36
    Db @ Full Throttle: 74
    Db @ 70 mph Cruise: 73

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    Since all your other figures except the '04 Prius were from C/D, here's the C/D numbers for that car for a more direct comparison:

    dB @ Idle, ICE off: 31 dBA
    dB @ Idle, ICE on: 45 dBA
    dB @ Full Throttle: 70 dBA
    dB @ 70 mpg Cruise: 69 dBA

    It seems the Prius is more like the V6 Camry in the full-throttle noise department, rather than the Corolla.
  • badtoybadtoy Posts: 368
    You're right -- performance doesn't mean as much to them or to the Europeans, largely because of the congestion and, in Japan's case, taxation on larger, more powerful, heavier cars. That's why a lot of what they sell there doesn't move over here.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Yes! It came as a surprise to me as well, when Sanyo disclosed its contract to supply batteries to Honda for upcoming Accord V6 hybrid (in Japan and North America). I was expecting the 2.4 liter I-4 to be the engine of choice (in Accord and/or TSX) to be mated to IMA, not the V6.

    Later, American Honda mentioned the same.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,687
    (481, 482, 484) are getting a little ridiculous! :-)

    No-one has anything new to say on the subject, I take it?

    robertsmx: with the V-6, the hybrid Accord should be a real humdinger. I just wonder how good the fuel economy could possibly be using that engine.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi Nippononly:

    ___I agree with the #xxx … #xxx stuff as well.

    ___I believe I have posted this in the past but I cannot say much about the fuel economy other then Honda’s own press releases. There is going to be an online chat with the Honda Hybrid and/or advanced fuel engineering group(s) tomorrow at 01:30 PM PST in Honda’s own Owner-link site. I won’t be able to listen in as I won’t be around but I do have a few guys that are going to hopefully copy and past the entire event in another forum. If so, I will repost it back here … And I have read of a guy that actually drove the Accord V6 Hybrid. He said the only way he could tell when the ICE swapped between 3 and 6 cylinders was a light on the dash telling him it did. With Civic type mileage (I hope it is Civic LX w/ a stick type mileage) and the smoothness described by the behind the wheel driver, I can bet it will be something special. I am still hoping for 0 - 60 in 7 or so seconds and Civic type city/hwy mileage … Now if they don’t try and get $30K or more for it :( This automobile will be the turning point as to when Hybrid’s hit mainstream imho. Well that and maybe the RXh, Highlander, and Escape as well?

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Nippononly - In the Inspire (JDM luxury version of the US Accord), VCM alone made for a 6 mpg gain in the 10-15 cycle. How that translates to the US EPA cycle is anybody's guess, but I think we can expect at least 3-4 mpg overall. Add the IMA to that and we should see an additional increase of 20%. Again, I'm being conservative.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Honda Inspire is currently the premium sedan offering in Japanese market (actually below Legend, but technically more advanced), and uses the first application of variable cylinder management in a Honda V6. The base engine is identical to the 3.0 liter V6 used in the American Accord (runs a slightly higher compression, and pumps 247 HP/218 lb.-ft).

    If VCM weren’t refined enough, I doubt Honda would have used it in a luxury sedan offering. And it has been in the market for several months now.

    Accord Hybrid will use the same engine. The VCM/V6 should by itself show reasonable mileage improvement on the highway. And as Varmint mentioned earlier, electric motor is really a nice add on when it comes to city driving (something that may or may not be reflected in EPA estimates, given the method of arriving at those numbers). It would be nice for the motor to have idle stop feature when I spend a few minutes at couple lights on my short commute to work. That would certainly help in the overall picture.

    And of course, this powerful V6 may actually end up being a PZEV!
This discussion has been closed.