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Hemi vs. Hybrid! Japan goes Tech, US goes ICE! Who's really winning??

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Echo basically bombed, FWIW. That's why Toyota created Scion.

    -juice
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,687
    the '04 non-LRR tires....

    :-)

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • evboevbo Posts: 6
    >What next? Comparing bicycles to minivans?

    Am I mistaken on the reason to purchase and drive a hybrid? Isn't the motivation to use less gas and pollute less. Or is it to pollute the same and not use more gas in a more refined ride?

    And John, the original Prius hit the market in late 1997, and was upgraded in 2003 as a 2004 model. I drove one in 1997. That's only 1 upgrade in 6 years.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    * HOV lane access in states like VA
    * no state sales tax in states like MD
    * peak torque at zero rpm and lots of it
    * increased range
    * ultra-silent at low speeds
    * increased fuel efficiency over *similar* cars

    Note that you could remove that last one and you'd still have an appealing package.

    Let's look at fuel sippers like the Echo:

    * DNQ for special HOV lane access
    * DNQ for MD tax credit
    * no torque at all at any rpm (LOL)
    * range pretty good given small tank
    * regular noises at idle and low speeds
    * average fuel efficiency in its class

    -juice
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    > That's only 1 upgrade in 6 years.

    You are mistaken.

    There were several major changes made for the US release... more powerful engine... smaller & lighter, yet more powerful battery-pack... Multi-Display changed to touch-sensitive... a bunch of cosmetic changes... refitting for US specs... and of course, ECU updates.

    JOHN
  • evboevbo Posts: 6
    You all enjoy driving your hybrids! And if you really care about saving gas, how about actually carpooling, in addition to buying a hybrid so you don't have too.

    I obviously have not been properly indoctrinated. If you are curious to truly understand what hybrid vehicles are, read the book "Common Sense Not Required" (available at Amazon) written by an engineer which holds several patents for hybrid technology.

    The rest of you, stop and go!
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Of the 2003 Prius, 2004 Prius, the Insight and the Civic Hybrid.

       The "real-world tested" economy tests runs, on an 18 mile city/highway loop in California, with all four cars driven over two days, NOSE TO TAIL, came out as follows:

       Name City/Hwy/Combined
       
       Insight - 55/67/60
       2004 Prius - 52/54/53
       2003 Prius - 50/54/52
       Civic Hybrid 43/50/46

       MT seemed to like the new Prius as the best car overall, siting superior acceleration times, smoother ride, and the aforementioned mileage advantage compared to the Civic hybrid.

       Basically the test was set up as how far Hybrids have come over the past few years, in room, refinement, economy, and value.

       They also brought out the fact that the Toyotas lost more performance than the Hondas when the batteries lose power.

       About this new Hybrid expert we have here, it is pretty obvious (to most people) that at least Toyota wants to iron out Hybrid Tech on a new nameplate (Prius) before rushing a new powerplant onto established names like Highlander and Camry that are worth hundreds of millions of dollars! I THOUGHT that was pretty clear.

       Now that the Prius is a certified blue-chipper, with no real recalls or other reliability issues that affect many (non-Honda/Toyota) new vehicles, and a track record of quality, now they can DIVIDE AND CONQUER!

       In conclusion, yes, Hybrids ARE so great! Not entirely on there own, but what new abilities they afford cars, trucks, and SUV's.

       This NEW technology will allow us to have 300HP SUV's with 25 MPG, or even more power while delivering the same MPG. Makers could make cars MUCH more fuel efficient, but the cars would lose TOO MUCH HP, which buyers love AND BUY more, so efficiency will rise moderately in the more mainstream vehicles that will employ Hybrid tech.

       Buyers want power and features, no one brags that their car gets 35 MPG! Now if it did it while going to 60 in 6 seconds.....then you have something to tell you friends.

       The future is coming faster than you think.

       And I'll be the first to thank Honda/Toyota for bringing it here while I'm still young enough to enjoy it! As long as it doesn't make stick-shifts obsolete!
     
       Thank you!

       And to GM, hows that OHV engine coming along? I hear you've actaully toyed with Variable Valve Timing? Congratulations!

       DrFill
  • "Why are only two automakers selling them to the public?"

    Because Supercar project was killed by the Bush administration. The reason? People are buying more SUV but 80MPG Supercar project was geared toward family car type. For detail documentary about Supercar project that Clinton administration jump started, check it out here: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/car/one/chi-startingu- p-special.special

    You'll need to register but trust me, it is worth it! There are three parts to it and each part has 6-7 pages.

    Dennis
  • "Throw away the batteries and electric motor on an Insight and it weighs 1300 lbs."

    Which common sense did you use to come up with 1300lbs ICE only Insight? I'll suggest another way to do the math. Look at Civic EX auto (2,668 lbs) and Civic Hybrid CVT (2,736 lbs). The difference is only 68 lbs.

    Dennis
  • "Maybe hybrids are just a fraud"

    Woooo stop! Care to explain such a inflammatory statement?

    "You can believe me, or write me off as some kook. "

    I am not going to write you off as some kook and I don't believe you. I strongly disagree with the statements that you made.

    Dennis
  • Because it is how cars should be made. Hybrid Synergy Drive simplifies the whole car mechanically. HSD has advantages of both gasoline and electric worlds. Going further in detail of hybrids, HSD even has the best of both Series and Parallel hybrid designs.

    I am not aware of any other mid-size car with about 2,900 lbs weight and equipped with 76 horse power internal combustion engine that can do 0-60 in about 10 seconds. BTW, I just described a 2004 Prius.

    Dennis
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,784
    >>I am not aware of any other mid-size car with about 2,900 lbs weight and equipped with 76 horse power internal combustion engine that can do 0-60 in about 10 seconds. BTW, I just described a 2004 Prius.

    One has to consider the entire package. I couldn't pack for a weeks vacation with only 16 cu feet of cargo space. The size of the prius is the limiting factor. I will be interested in the real world performance of the larger hybrids when they arrive.

    The current size is useful for around town and as a commuter, but not a multi purpose family car that I can use for all conditions.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    Since when must a vehicle fulfill every possible need?

    That's the kind of mindset that got us into the monster-sized SUV mess in the first place.

    Owning a massive vehicle for the rare chance that you might actually need that much internal space or towing power is quite a waste.

    Years ago, people used to have "the other vehicle" for special uses, like vacations. For my family, it was a full-size conversion van. And before that could be afforded, we would just strap a roof-top carrier onto the family car. We didn't try to make excuses like some do now. It was no big deal. It worked just fine.

    JOHN
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,687
    there's no discussion of hemis here? They are in the title, for goodness' sake! :-)

    While very cool, the hemi is actually the exception to the rule right now...a lot of the new GM and Ford entries to arrive in the next year or two are midpack at best in their segments, in terms of power.

    From what I have seen, "hemi" has more cachet than "hybrid" does, to their respective audiences (sales are jumping up faster for models with the hemi available, than for hybrids). And neither is well understood by more than half of the people who flock to them and buy them.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 5,859
    To widen the focus of this topic, I've made a small change to the title. Kept the "hemi" up there for the cachet value, but now the title reflects a more general ICE/hybrid comparison topic.

    Carry on!

    PF Flyer
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  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi All:

    ___Pretty good comparison between a Hybrid and non-Hybrid (Civic vs. Civic) in this Popular Mechanics article entitled “Hybrid vs. Gas Cross Country” here: http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/auto_technology/2003/7- /hybrid_vs_gas/

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • maxx4memaxx4me Posts: 1,340
    Terrific article Wayne. Thanks for posting it. My hope is that gas prices will go to $3-$4 per gallon in the US, forcing the engineers to get us all in hydrogen powered vehicles within 10 years. Oil has got to go.
  • At 80MPH, HCH engine was running at 3,000RPM vs. 4,000 RPM HC. HCH can afford to have 1,000 RPM lower because of the 10KW electric supercharger available on demand. The classic Prius can afford to stay at low 1,500 RPM at 50MPH with the available 50KW electric supercharger. Sorry, I don't have the data for 80MPH.

    HCH battery runs out in long uphill conditions. It is the weakness of a mild parallel hybrid design. A full hybrid design like HSD can recharge and climb hills on-the-fly.

    Dennis
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi Maxx4me:

    ___You really do not want to see $3 and $4.00/gallon fuel. The Domestic car industry is one of the last industries supporting high paying blue collar jobs. They not only support the families of millions of employees in the automotive and sub assembly industries but in turn help keep just about every other industry you can imagine rolling and afloat. Imagine the demand for RV’s and that industries demise, Arctic Cat ATV’s, Polaris Jet Ski’s, Mercury outboards, imagine the landscape industry, the home improvement industry, tourism industry, transportation, and that includes trucking … It goes on and on. The US can absorb small increases over a period of time but it cannot absorb a large increase in a short period of time. Too many jobs in related and non-related peripheral industries are harmed with that type of price spike and the willowing consumer demand for good and services that follow.

    ___After reading Usbseawolf2000’s link into the Chicago Tribune Super Car article, spikes are sometimes needed to clear the way for advancement but in this case, the Japanese OEM’s (Toyota/Honda) already have a huge foothold and they didn’t do it all on their own earnings in reality either. There is a self serving industrial machine called MITI in Japan that acts similar to the way Government helped fund the Super Car project or DARPA from the days of the cold war act to advance future weapon(s) development and technology. Whether incentives come from direct tax credits or simply here is your money, develop a car, the Japanese followed through because they were forced too. They have basically no natural resources to speak of and simply had too use their mighty engineering prowess or die with the threat of US’ Super Car project looming.

    ___It is almost sad in fact. The average American cannot afford an ~ $32,000 72 mpg Ford Prodigy Supercar (estimated Ford MY 2000 $’s) yet Toyota is selling the smaller 04 Prius which achieves even less fuel economy for darn near $26,000 and can not or will not supply enough of the small vehicles to supply demand. We have the technology and it appears as if only Ford (of the domestic manufacturers) is making headway into the vast unknown with PZEV based Focus’ and Hybrid SUV’s in terms of the Escape HEV. I sure hope Ford makes a good one given the PZEV Focus is now starting to shine in reliability circles and the Escape HEV will use the same 2.3 L PZEV motor with just a few intake modifications …

    ___Someone a few pages back was speaking of losing 600 lb’s in an Insight w/ the loss of the Hybrid HW. It would be more along the lines of maybe 150 #’s I believe but here is the kicker. Drop the Hybrid tech and all aluminum structure so it weighs ~ the same yet costs just $13 - $14,000. It won’t do 0 - 60 in 10.5 seconds as it does currently but it would do 0 - 60 in 12.5. It might even still receive 65 mpg on the hwy given the addition of the Civic VX’s alternator and balance shafts. Was the additional $5 - $7,000 worth it to the end user for the hybrid tech? I say no since consumers have already voted no with their pocket books on the lightweight 2 seater to meet their needs. I am guesstimating since in all actuality, it has been estimated it costs Honda ~ $30 - $50,000 a piece to produce the Insight given the low volumes and specialty materials used throughout. Knock back the going $20K to $13 - $14K however and you have yourself a reliable 2 seat commuter that would do wonders for our balance of trade and dependence on foreign oil directly.

    ___We have quite a future ahead of us in regards to technological advances in our own personal transportation but what we don’t need is a price spike to $3 and $4.00/gallon over the period of a year or two to kill off the very industry that places the food on the table of quite a large percentage of our countries men and woman before the advances have a chance to bear fruit. Let’s just hope Detroit’s top exec’s are actually seeing every $0.10 rise in price at the pump on a month over month basis. That alone should scare the bejesus out of them if not for their own well being since $4.00/gallon will not affect their lifestyle (CEO’s and other highly paid executives) one iota, but for the sake of their employees, there company, and our country!

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • "It is almost sad in fact. The average American cannot afford an ~ $32,000 72 mpg Ford Prodigy Supercar..."

    It is sad indeed but obviously not a fact. The "research" that the big 3 did about Hybrids were not true. The prove is here today, when Americans are waiting on the 6-8 months list to get hands on the Prius. Remember, Ford Prodigy(2,387lbs) was much lighter than the Prius due to the use of exotic materials. The acceleration was about the same as the classic Prius(2,800lbs), 0-60 in 12 seconds.

    Ford Prodigy, GM Precept, and ESX3 used diesel to achieve 72 MPG to 80 MPG. Since Diesel contains more energy than gasoline, Prius efficiency is up there with those Super Cars. Prius also shines in the extremely low emission department. The fact that Toyota can mass produce Prius at 20K and still make money is what differentiated from the big 3 and the Japanese from my point of view.

    Dennis
  • "Drop the Hybrid tech and all aluminum structure so it weighs ~ the same yet costs just $13 - $14,000. It won’t do 0 - 60 in 10.5 seconds as it does currently but it would do 0 - 60 in 12.5."

    They used aluminum to reduce the weight further. Everything else was cut as much as possible and meet the safety requirements. If they use steel, it'll weight close to the Civic. 0-60 acceleration will be closer to 15 seconds. Passing power on highway will be lower also due to the lack of electric supercharger. Not to mention MPG hit in the City driving conditions.

    Dennis
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi Usbseawolf2000:

    ___You might have missed the underlying tone to the article as it relates to many of our previous discussions … You have a Civic EX that does 0 - 60 in ~ 8.8/9.8 seconds with a stick/automatic and a Civic Hybrid that does 0 - 60 in ~ 11/12.8 seconds w/ a stick/CVT. We are talking ~ 30% more acceleration at any time under any condition. The Hybrid not only costs more, it doesn&#146;t handle as well then the already overpriced but better equipped EX (powered moonroof for one), and only pays off at 144,000 miles when paying retail MSRP for both vehicles. This does not include any finance or opportunity costs of the additional $1,440 initial outlay if you were to be foolish enough to pay MSRP for an EX. Even the slightly less powerful Civic LX outperforms the HCH under every condition and can be had for < $15K easily. As for performance, once the EX&#146;s or LX&#146;s VTEC comes into play, it doesn&#146;t need any type of electrical assist. It would continually walk away from any Hybrid including the Prius, HCH, or Insight without so much as an afterthought.

    ___When you are speaking of generating electricity on the fly while climbing or when the pack needs to be recharged, you are not supplying a single ounce of propulsion from the pack itself. That means you are relying on the totally anemic 76 HP Atkinson-ized 1.5 L engine in the 04 Prius to provide propulsion and create electricity on the fly. Once the battery is drained in a Hybrid including the 04 Prius, the ICE of the hybrid has to generate electricity and supply forward propulsion. The 76 HP motor of the 04 Prius given all she&#146;s got including generating electricity on the fly is about as anemic as … well even worse then a 67 HP Insight motor in a 2,900 # Prius without assist and that is pathetic given the Insight engine while on the cam can only accelerate the 1,850 # Insight to 60 in 12.5 seconds with no electrical assist whatsoever.

    ___It appears to me that if Honda wanted to push the EX&#146;s or LX&#146;s hwy fuel economy, they could detune the EX or LX&#146;s ICE (why not install a 1.5 L VTEC or simply add a taller top gear?) to match the acceleration and overall performance of the HCH and receive ~ the same fuel economy in the process. This comes without the overly expensive Hybrid drivetrain once again.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi Usbseawolf2000:

    They used aluminum to reduce the weight further. Everything else was cut as much as possible and meet the safety requirements. If they use steel, it'll weight close to the Civic.

    ___If they dropped the Hybrid HW, they lose ~ 150 #&#146;s. If they went to an all-steel structure, they gain ~ the same back. The Insight is not nearly the size of a Civic and wouldn&#146;t weigh nearly as much. The Honda Civic VX with an all steel construction weighed within a few #&#146;s of the Insight. Even the lowly 4 seat Toyota Echo 2-Door weighs just a touch over 2,000 #&#146;s.

    ___The problem with removing the Hybrid drivetrain in an Insight is that the Insight&#146;s IMA acts as a quasi balance shaft so as to remove that fuel economy robbing structure from the ICE. I don&#146;t know how many mpg it is worth but it shouldn&#146;t be much? The Alternator can be dealt with since I believe the VX&#146;s would only engage when the 12 V batter reached a predetermined minimum voltage and disengage when it reached a predetermined maximum. Something like that anyway???

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • Since Prius can generate and supply forward propulsion at the same time, it will almost never run out of the battery, exception of being in the race track. In the Honda's case, you will run out of battery if you don't hit the brake.

    Let's say, even IF the Prius run out of battery, the efficient Atkinson 76HP engine has to power both electric motor and drive the car. Prius MG1(Motor/Generator) can generate about 20KW-25KW of electricity by splitting 25HP-38HP from the ICE. MG2 can push out about 150 lbs-ft torque from 25KW of electricity! So, the car is transformed into 150 lbs-ft torque with the remaining 38 HP from the ICE(Ideal for climbing hills when torque is more important). Performance will probably be better than 1975 lbs Insight with 89 ft-lbs of torque.

    Prius HSD has the ability to use the energy in the most efficient form on-the-fly where Honda hybrid design can not.

    As for Civic EX, LX or any other ICE only car..
    "Power and efficiency are inseparable at any time and under any circumstances. Sacrifice either; and you do not have a practical power source." - Jack Yamaguchi

    The only way to escape from that law of physics is to use two power sources that shines in opposite situations of each other and open a path for energy to flow between the two. This is how HSD get out of the smaller box, into a bigger box.

    Dennis
  • "The Honda Civic VX with an all steel construction weighed within a few #&#146;s of the Insight"

    1993 Honda Civic VX did not have to meet strict safety standards of today.

    Dennis
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi Usbseawolf2000:

    Let's say, even if the Prius run out of battery, the efficient Atkinson 76HP engine has to power both electric motor and drive the car. Prius MG1(Motor/Generator) can generate about 20KW-25KW of electricity by splitting 25HP-38HP from the ICE. MG2 can push out about 150 lbs-ft torque from 25KW of electricity! So, the car is transformed into 150 lbs-ft torque with the remaining 38 HP from the ICE(Ideal for climbing hills when torque is more important).

    ___You might be missing the point here? It matters when the Prius runs out of electrical power supplied from the pack. The &#147;climbing the hill while charging&#148; scenario is one of them. That means the pack is not supplying the power for propulsion in any way shape or form. When that happens, you have the ICE supplying the propulsion irregardless if it&#146;s from the ICE directly or from the second MG Set&#146;s electricity on the fly. It is still only worth 76 HP MAXMUM not including what the pack is being recharged with. With that entire 76 HP at the 04 Prius&#146; disposal (probably less if it is re-supplying the pack with electrical power) comes the atrocious ability to accelerate any automobile let alone one that weighs 2,900 #&#146;s. We have already been through the terrible 0 - 30 times of the 04 Prius using all of its wonderful 295 Ft.-lb&#146;s of torque available from 0 - 1,200 RPM with a fully charged pack. You do remember the ~ 3.4 seconds to 30 mph with a fully charged pack, right? Take away the packs propulsion ability and watch this kind of number soar! The non-hybrid Civic EX in the article always has 127 HP available no matter if it&#146;s climbing a mountain or dashing around on the highway or city. It is simply available at all times no matter what condition it is in.

    ___As for the VX&#146;s weight, the Toyota Echo is larger then the Honda Insight and it meets today&#146;s safety requirements? The Insight with the loss of all of the Hybrid drivetrain components using an all steel constructed frame and body panels that are not plastic already would weigh less then 2,000 #&#146;s. This is no where near the ~ 2,450 - 2,650 #&#146;s of a Civic of various trims. Over the last 10 years, the automobile industry has improved its ability to pack more HW and yet keep an automobiles weight close to the same or even less in some cases … If there was a way to install a balance shaft without robbing the smaller ICE of its barely adequate acceleration rates without assist, there is really no need for the Hybrid drivetrain nor the all aluminum and exotic material structure for the $5 - $7K or more extra cost. Again, this would be strictly for a commuter automobile as I use it for myself.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • "The non-hybrid Civic EX in the article always has 127 HP available no matter if it&#146;s climbing a mountain or dashing around on the highway or city.

    Prius is faster than 2.4 liter Camry in 30MPH-50MPH acceleration. So, Prius will leave Civic EX behind for sure. Prius' 76HP engine can get you top speed of 100MPH. How much more power and speed do you need? Sure we all like to have more.

    The point is not the power but how you use it!

    Dennis
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi Usbseawolf2000:

    Prius is faster than 2.4 liter Camry in 30MPH-50MPH acceleration. So, Prius will leave Civic EX behind for sure. 76HP Prius has top speed of 100MPH. How much more power and speed do you need? Sure we all like to have more.

    ___That is about the only item I have ever read where the 04 Prius can beat a comparable std. ICE and that isn&#146;t saying much. This factoid was also supplied by TMC and they didn&#146;t give the specifics as to which year Camry this was, did they? The latest Camry 4 banger has 157 HP/162 Ft.-lb&#146;s of torque driving 3,100 # automobile. The 127 HP EX&#146;s ICE would knock the hell out of the 4 banger Camry because the weight of the Civic is so much less (~ 2,600 #&#146;s w/ a stick). It would also leave the 04 Prius in the dust in any and all conditions as well.

    ___I am a big fan of the 4 banger Camry given its rather surprising highway fuel economy in such a large and comfortable automobile. We were actually within a few days of purchasing a loaded XLE w/ the 4 early last year until the wife decided on the MDX ...

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    > Once the battery is drained in a Hybrid including the
    > 04 Prius, the ICE of the hybrid has to generate electricity
    > and supply forward propulsion. The 76 HP motor of the 04
    > Prius given all she&#146;s got including generating electricity
    > on the fly is about as anemic as

    You either don't understand how the system works or are intentionally misrepresenting it.

    When climbing a hill, the engine usually recharges the battery-pack. If pushed harder, some of the electricity is routed to the motor. If pushed even harder, the motor uses all of it. If pushed beyond even that, the battery-pack is drawn from.

    So it is extremely rare for the battery-pack to unable to supply electricity, as you imply.

    And in my 70,000 miles of driving Prius, I certainly haven't ever come close to that situation. It just isn't a realistic scenario.

    JOHN
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,784
    >>Since when must a vehicle fulfill every possible need?

    >>That's the kind of mindset that got us into the monster-sized SUV mess in the first place.

    >>Owning a massive vehicle for the rare chance that you might actually need that much internal space or towing power is quite a waste.

    Thank you for acknowledging that the Prius isn't big enough for family tasks. Or at least, that is how I interpret your attempt to make my need for a family sized car into some kind of monster SUV.

    I am not talking about an large SUV or huge vehicle, just something that can handle the daily commute and still go on vacations with my family of four.

    It would appear that you would prefer that I change my needs to suit the size of the Prius. Sorry, can't be done. Nice commuter, but too small for the primary family car.
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