Hemi vs. Hybrid! Japan goes Tech, US goes ICE! Who's really winning??

seminole_kev

Yes and if you were the only type of consumer out there, that would be true. However there are plenty of other consumers with other ideas about what their car should do. I would consider getting more power and the same (or slightly better gas mileage) while having LOWERED emissions without hardly any increase in price a great thing.

I seldom venture into the hybrid topics, but this one is more open ended with the topic title. Normally avoid them because there is a lot of fanatical pro-hybrid at all costs behavior that just escapes me.

ateixeira

I disagree, both are not required.

Last time I checked, Ford sold about ten billion times the F150s vs. all hybrids combined. Approximately. ;-)

You might say desireable, even then I'd add the caveat that performance remain at acceptable levels.

-juice

drfill

WhAT MAKERS try to do is come up with a basis where they can add power (significantly), make the car roomier (but still improve power-to-weight), reduce emissions one level, AND increase economy (enough to stay ahead of the CAFE curve!)

   The two features a buyer wants most is reliability and good acceleration. These will easily lead all other buying factors. Unless you live in the south, and buying a Ford or GM pickup is your ONLY option in life!

   I'm not gonna buy a Corolla because it's ZEV over PZEV. Or it gets 33 MPG over 30 MPG.

   Also remember Ford's sales figures are HIGHLY distorted by Fleet sales, OK?

   DrFill

seminole_kev

grew up in the South and consider myself a Southerner, yet I've never owned, nor wanted, a pickup truck....

stevedebi

Speaking for this state, they REALLY like their pick-um-up trucks (as they are called down there). Part of it is there are so many ranches and farms, it is a utility vehicle and a necessity. However, that doesn't explain the urban drivers...

john1701a

> Yes and if you were the only type of consumer out there,
> that would be true.

You are implying the word "reduce" means "as much as possible". That is not actually the case. Varying degrees are perfectly acceptable.

 
> I disagree, both are not requied.

Then you explain why.

Both SMOG and the DEPENDENCE on imported oil should be a concern.

JOHN

seminole_kev

but Texans are not Southerners. I visit some of my family there (and living in Oklahoma right now, it's the same people) but it is a different culture. Not Southerners. More of a Southwestern thing.

Don't even drink sweet tea and their BBQ is beef not pork. Bunch of savages I tell ya! ;-)

Steve - yeah they love Pickup trucks and Suburbans this way. Ugh. Now if they could get the cylinder shutdown thing perfected (maybe already have with the Chrysler 300C?) with the amount of highway travel out here, there could be a real gas savings on pickup trucks and the big SUVS out here.

usbseawolf2000

mirth,
"See what I mean? (usbsea excepted)"

What do you mean?

ateixeira,
"And I certainly won't ignore the HP and torque improvements."

15% increase in displacement only gives 10% and 11% increase in torque and horsepower respectively. It is not good enough. I wonder what happened to the rest of power that SHOULD of been there. For your reference, RSX 2.0L engine can make 141Lbs-ft and 160HP. Focus engine is still underpower comparing to comparable displacement Japanese engines.

seminole_kev,
"Maybe someday I will be more enthusiastic about hybrids, but now just isn't that time."

Doesn't mean you don't have to learn about revolutionary concepts that different hybrid designs are bringing.

Dennis

seminole_kev

Doesn't mean I'm not interested in learning about it, just don't like having to drink the special Koolade at the end of the sermon if you catch my drift. Little too fanatical. I love learning about technology, just don't need the extra "zeal" if you will.

drfill

I think you may have missed the point when I MADE this topic.

   The basis premise here is how the Japanese are using new technologies, smaller, more efficient and cleaner engines to improve their offerings, while the American's just throw a V8 (or a larger V8) into everything as a cure-all.
  
   By changing the name of the topic, you have (incorrectly) changed the topic itself! I made a somewhat successful topic here, and would like it to remain wholesome and pure (and successful).

   Putting the original name back would be the right thing to do.

   Whether you do the right thing is another story.

   DrFill

usbseawolf2000

Japanese hybrids are using new technologies, smaller, more efficient and cleaner engines to improve their offerings. We even have Prius 1.5L 76HP engine HSD comparing to Focus 2.3L ~150HP.

Next gen Focus might offer bigger, cleaner(?) and less efficient 2.6L or 3.0L engine, etc, while Japanese will offer more efficient hybrids to increase MPG and decrease emission.

Who knows, maybe next gen Focus might use HSD technology and follow Toyota's lead.

Dennis

stevedebi

So you mean the Texans climbing the cliff at Seminary ridge on day 3 of Gettysburg weren't Southerners? Don't say that around Dallas or Houston - or Tyler, for that matter!

I'll have you know that the true test of a Texas restaurant is if they ask if you want "sweet" or "unsweetened" tea...

Pig BBQ? What's that???

seminole_kev

I knew it! That pork BBQ get's 'em every time. Look, I'm tellin' you guys, you just ain't Southerners...you're Southwesters! Sorry. ;-)

Back (somewhat) on topic. Now get those Suburbans and Full size picktrucks running on half the cylinders out on the highway to save some gas. Although I had a car once that ran on about half the cylinders, no one thought that was a feature though ;-)

stevedebi

Oklahoma. Wow, what an insult...

I recall that my uncle had one of those Caddys in the 1980's that went on 4 cylinders when needed. As I recall it didn't work very well. But that was before real computer controls in cars.

seminole_kev

Oklahoma, Texas - six one way, half a dozen another. Same people.

On those 4-6-8 Caddy motors, Most people just disabled that feature before it went on the fritz.

xcel

Hi Nippononly:

Speed limits:

___In the Corolla, I usually travel just above the limits … let’s say 56 - 58 mph. In the MDX, I usually travel a little bit above that at let’s say 58 - 63 mph. In the Insight, it is dead set 55 with a few bouts where I might touch 60 but very very few. With all of these, I use the Drive w/ load technique so my speed droops as much as 12 mph when traffic is clear as I climb and I pick it back up or more on any given descent.

Traffic:

___I find myself in some of the best and some of the worst traffic you might imagine. I travel from the Wisconsin border to south of Joliet on the Illinois Tollway and Interstate system almost exclusively. I work a rotating shift, rotating days off schedule so sometimes I am coming home on a Sunday morning and there is for all intents and purposes, no traffic to speak of. At other times I am coming home on Friday afternoon and I am stuck in the worst god forsaken nightmare’s you could imagine … I was stuck in a 5 hour - 10 minute Blizzard nightmare a few years back and simply crawled home. The rest of Chicago crawled home that night w/ 4 and 5 hour commutes being the norm as well!

Weather:

___As for meteorological data, I use weather.com. I have shortcuts set up for my home town, O’Hare Airport in Chicago (I pass right by it on I294), Chicago’s Midway Airport (I pass by within ~ 5 miles of that one), and my destination in Braidwood, IL. If you look at the hourly reports, they have expected temperatures, wind speeds, and directions … I also have access to detailed weather plots of temperatures, wind speeds, and directions at multiple heights AGL at work that I use as well. The MDX and Corolla include temperature gauges and are both within 1 degree of ambient at both high and low temperatures. In the Insight, I have to rely on the web based information and work data. Finally, I have any number of flags, cooling tower stacks, and even (2) waste gas burn off towers that I pass in my daily commute that I watch for knowing ~ what direction the wind is truly coming from and its ~ magnitude at any given point in time. I have a PDA based GPS at all times showing my true heading as well as elevation at every step along any trip or segment as well …

Powerful Green machines:

___As for the PZEV Focus, what can I say? I have the 2.3 L in the Ranger XLT and it is one powerful ICE for being as small as it is … It is even on top of the Green vehicle Guide’s list for small P/U’s albeit only a LEV :-( I also like Ford’s current chairman (he is a Ford after all) given his green ideas and instincts. I hope you get the chance to read up on the Ford Escape HEV someday. There is quite a bit of information about Ford’s greener idea’s and projects besides just the Ford Escape HEV to read about over there as well.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

carguy1234

Can you further explain drive w/ load?

You and misterme are the kings of MPG!

xcel

Hi All:

___Another interesting article posted over on a Green site albeit it was the Detroit Free Press so the Bias will show through …

http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=communique&newsid=503- 5

___Personally, I think the $2,500 more expensive Silverado is really ridiculous given the pitiful increase in mileage for (4) 120 V outlets and the ability to use the truck as a generator but that is just me … The EPA says it is basically a LEV… Clenaer then a std. gas generator you would buy form your local farm supply house or Honda dealer I guess but not nearly as clean as the power produced from even a US emission controlled and regulated coal plant or similar …

http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/E-CHEVROLET-Silverado15Hybrid-04- .htm

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

xcel

Hi Usbseawolf2000:

Focus engine is still underpower comparing to comparable displacement Japanese engines.

___You seem to be missing the fact that the PZEV based Focus is just as clean, much faster, and much more fun to drive then the Prius by a long shot.

___I did see another one of the embellished statements coming from the resident Prius expert in regards to the Focus and I know he has seen the actual pricing of one if he has read these threads as I know he does …

3-16-2004: Easy being green? Reading the Focus ZTW article just published by "Car and Driver" was enlightening. They talked about how pleasing the power was, despite the special engineering needed to meet the strict emissions requirements. And they did it all for only a 3 percent price increase. Overall, it looked like a definite feather in Ford's cap for having accomplished that. Then I turned to page two. That revealed the base price listed for the manual transmission was actually $200 more than Prius and their observed efficiency was 15 MPG less than Prius... grinding all arguments about financial saving to an abrupt halt... especially when you consider that the base package for Prius also a Digital Speedometer, Multi-Display, LED Brake Lights... The job for that car to compete with Prius is considerably harder to be green than some think. Not me though. I always knew Prius made it made it easy.

___Maybe he forgot the following?

___The Ford Focus is not only much faster, it is a lot more fun to drive given the excellent PZEV rated 2.3 L’s HP, torque, suspension, and brake HW matched making it the lively automobile that it is. In the 5 Dr. format, it is larger then the 04 Prius of course. The ZX5 5-Door Focus PZEV - Premium in particular can be purchased for as little as $4,500 - $10,000 less in terms of initial costs (not only w/ the available rebates but if you have access to the X-Plan for another $1,000 off ;-)) while extremely well equipped including all of the following as either std. or option(s) vs. the 04 Prius. Here are a few of the more basic yet included std. amenities first:

* A/C
* Cruise
* Powered windows w/ one-touch down
* Powered locks
* Powered mirrors
* Intermittent wipers
* Full range of analog gauges including tach
* Leather wrapped steering wheel
* Tilt and Telescopic steering wheel
* Height adjustable front seats
* Keyless entry w/ lock/unlock and panic
* Passive security coded keys
* 16” 5-spoke Aluminum wheels
* Powered Sunroof
* A number of electrical schemes for battery rundown protection and power to accessories and amenities for a given period after key shut off
* 60 W AM/FM/CD w/ MP3 player
* Solar Tinted Glass
* 5 mph bumpers F and R
* Std. Floor mats
* Fog lamps

___And the non-standard options some might be interested in …

* Leather seating surfaces
* Heated front seats
* Heated mirrors
* Perimeter Alarm
* ABS
* Auto
* Side Air Bags

___All of the above including the non-std. options in the second list for a touch under $16,000 w/ the X-Plan. A touch under $17,000 without. So how does his paraphrasing of a Car and Driver article w/ costing more then a Prius match reality anyway? Especially when C&D received just 15 mpg less in the PZEV based Focus then the 04 Prius in there own review! It appears more of the normal FUD spreading again … Especially when the primary goal of the Prius was to reduce emissions according to some? To bad Toyota forgot the performance side of the equation and didn’t price it to match that of the Ford?

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

seminole_kev

does anyone have the torque specs of the main motors? (not SVT or Si motors, just a mill you'd fine in a regular sedan or whatever) As far as torque goes, I'd guess off the top of my head that the Focus PZEV and Sentra 2.5 would lead the class in torque. Something that Americans always forget about. What's the old phrase? "Americans buy horsepower and drive torque". That Focus duratec PZEV has a nice punch to it for a small car.

john1701a

I never imagined a hybrid owner would campaign so hard against hybrids... especially with such a weak argument and disregarding any possibility of production costs ever dropping.

PZEV isn't available in any other Ford vehicle, nor have I ever seen any non-hybrid plans for them to offer that in the future. So unless you want a Focus, you're screwed.

MPG is completely ignored too, placing no value whatsoever on its importance.

That's really sad.

JOHN

usbseawolf2000

xcel,

"You seem to be missing the fact that the PZEV based Focus is just as clean, much faster, and much more fun to drive then the Prius by a long shot."

Fun is very subjective. There are Prius owners that traded in their Corvette and Mercedes.

"To bad Toyota forgot the performance side of the equation and didn’t price it to match that of the Ford?"

Currently, Focus is the one with heavy $4,000 - $5,000 discounts of MSRP. Which didn't price it right again?

Dennis

misterme

carguy1234:
"You and misterme are the kings of MPG!"

Thank you for the compliment, I really enjoy my car.
Although xcel and I can respectfully disagree on some points,
I have to hand it to him for sharing his tips.

Seminole:
Lived in Savannah for 5 years, Atlanta area for 18.
Can't speak for Oaklahoma, but the "good ol' boys sure love ther pick-em-up trucks here in the East too!

Can't speak for Florida, though.
Some think it broke off of Maine and drifted down here sometime in the 1970's!

Thanks
Steve & family

seminole_kev

yeah I've lived all over the south, including Georgia. Florida's about the same until you start down past Orlando, starts changing to another world.

Could you mail me a vat of Brunswick Stew and some Varsity onion rings please? Man I miss that stuff!

By the way, I spent the first chunk of my life living in the Tucker area of Atlanta. Went back to Atlanta on buisness about 4 years ago but didn't get to see the old areas I knew. I imagined it has changed a lot.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I've seen the new Chrysler 300C RWD V8 version quoted at 27 MPG highway. If so, that's actually pretty impressive for a vehicle that size and with that power....but I might be remembering that wrong.

mirth

I meant that you at least acknowledged that the Focus being PZEV was a good thing.

Been seeing more Prius' out there lately. Well, okay, only 3, but that's three more than I saw of the previous version.

john1701a

> but that's three more than I saw of the previous version.

I have spotted hundreds and hundreds of them over the years.

Where the heck do you live?

JOHN

usbseawolf2000

Yup, anything technology that reduces emission is good. The difference is how they approach it. Focus approach is to cover/fix up the symptom. This approach costs less now but as engine gets bigger, the more it will cost, the more performance hit and the less it will make sense.

HSD approach is to attack the fundamental cause of the pollution. The price will just go down to produce HSD and there is gain in MPG as a side benefit.

If you have a infected wound, would you just use band-aid to cover it up or use alcohol to kill the bacteria and protect it with a band-aid?

Dennis

ateixeira

John: required, no. Desired, yes.

Dennis: the RSX is not a PZEV, I don't even think it's an SULEV. Plus it's much more expensive and does not compete with the Focus.

IMO we should not put down the Focus. Any and all attempts to reduce emissions should be heralded, not criticized.

I love the Prius, don't get me wrong. Read my review in the Town Hall Test Drive Team thread. It'll make me consider a hybrid next time I'm car shopping, I was so impressed.

However, let's not take away from what Ford has accomplished with this PZEV 2.3l engine. Like 0-60 in 7.9 seconds, which is fantastic. And they had a very roomy wagon model with plenty of space for the family.

Considering the high teens price to acquire one, plentiful supply, and painless swap of a 2.0l Zetec that wasn't very impressive for a slightly more efficient 2.3l with more power and torque, it's a no-brainer, if you're a Ford fan shopping for roomy little wagons.

Prius is a success, and that's a good thing. But I don't think a move towards more efficient and cleaner cars has to exclude PZEV cars like the Focus.

-juice

mirth

I live in Detroit, which should be all the explanation you need. ;-) I imagine in terms of Prius population, California and Detroit are the two ends of the spectrum.

ateixeira

I see lots of Prii in Washington, DC, old and new. There's one in our garage at work. They tend to stand out so I notice them.

-juice

logic1

Your analogy may make sense (depending upon how the hydrogen is extracted) if you were describing a fuel cell or some other engine that uses no fossil fuel.

It does not make sense describing a hybrid engine which of course uses an ICE. If a non-hybrid gets near the real world mpgs as a hybrid and pollutes the same or less, it is just as good from any environmental perspective.

None of the hybrid proponents have discussed at all to my satisfaction the pollution generated making the hybrid vehicles and the pollution generated by the ships that transport them. Hybrids still drive on roads and require garages and other unfriendly modifications to the environment as well.

The real solution is to use mass transit in most circumstances. Cars should be for recreational purposes. Anything else, including hybrids and alternative fueled vehicles is only a band aid.

varmint

"Anything else, including hybrids and alternative fueled vehicles is only a band aid."

What does that make the V8 ICE?

Juice - Washington DC registrations in 2003 totaled 1,585 for the Prius and 2,393 for the HCH. There's your Cliff Clavin factoid for the day. For other cities, scroll to the bottom of this link.

http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0403/29/a01-106310.htm

tempusvn

Edit: I see someone beat me to the link ^ Thats what I get for not hitting the button fast enough, hehe.

I saw an infobit the other day listing the top 10 hybrid markets in the US based on sales in 2003. They had a top 10 for the Prius and another for the HCH.

LA was #1 for the Prius and DC was #1 for the HCH.

Funny thing was that the top 5 for both were the same, though not in the same order.

LA/DC/NY/SF/Seattle

logic1

It would make it that much smaller a band aid, depending upon its pollution control abilities.

The attempt to suggest a hybrid car is some how going to save the environment reminds of the old joke where A asks B if they would do something disreptuable for a million dollars. B says sure. When A asks B if B would do the same thing for $100.00, B gets mad and asks what sort of person do you think I am? A replies, we already established that, now we are negotiating a price.

Hybrids pollute and use fossil fuel less than some other pure ICE options. But they still pollute and they still use fossil fuel. They still need roads. They still enable - arguably more than ever - their owners to live in unsustainably sparse single family home commuties that require far more fossil fuel and lead to far more pollution in this country than automobiles.

varmint

Logic - I didn't mean to pick on you. I was just bringing the discussion back to focus. The context for this discussion is "hybrid vs hemi", not "hybrid vs perfect solution". You just happened to supply a good quote for my effort to get things back on track.

nippononly

see lots and lots of Prius here in the San Francisco area.

The new Camry and Accord PZEVs both have less smog-forming emissions than the current HCH and Prius. But both have combined fuel economy only in the high 20s.

So I wonder aloud: how quickly can VCM-type technologies advance? Is it available for any 4-cylinder engines yet, or only for V-6s and bigger? Could we achieve a 40-mpg-combined 4-cyl ICE-only car in the next five years? Because the emissions part is pretty much licked, and I am sure SULEV-performing cars will only multiply as federal emissions standards close the gap to conform with California's present standard in the next three years.

On the flip side, how fast can battery technology advance, to provide hybrids with more and more electric-only range? Because that is crucial for improved fuel economy, and only if it is NOT at the expense of massive added weight. Of all the advanced features of the current Prius, I find the least impressive to be the regenerative capability from coasting and braking. Which is to say, I wish it could recapture a much higher percentage of the energy.

logic1

environmentally dangerous components?

ateixeira

I must've seen all 4000 or so of those hybrids. )

logic: let's fix one thing at a time. To focus on the boats bringing hybrids over here is to overlook the benefit of having an efficient fleet. You have to start somewhere.

I wonder, is the Hemi even made in the US? What about the Magnum it's going into? Dodge used to build the LH cars in Canada IIRC.

-juice

wimsey1

They compared the Prius with four other midsize sedans of similar power and price. The Prius just edged out the 4cyl. 'Bu and the 2 of them walked away from the Galant, Verona, & Stratus.
The Prius delivered very similar acceleration to all but the Galant but beat the next best gas mileage by 20mpg (44 vs. 24 observed).
The point here is that the Prius is a competitive midsize sedan is performance, price and accomodations with nearly twice the fuel mileage of the others. While some have noted that it doesn't come close to it's EPA rating it is beating the ICE competitors handily in real world MPG. I think that is worth noting.
I realize that the real world price differences in retail price (Prius $22052 vs. Malibu $20930 in test) will be greater than shown in the test (Malibu gets 1750 incentives, Prius 0 or maybe a markup), but that is a factor in most GM Toyota comparisons.
It was interesting to see the Prius compared head to head as a CAR not a social experiment.

svevar

The HEMI engine is made in Mexico, and the Dodge Magnum and Chrysler 300 are made in Canada like their LH predecessors. The transmissions are made in the U.S., though—in Indiana, I think.

 -- Mark

logic1

From a clean the air and reduce fossil fuel perspective, the problem with fixing cars first is that they are no where near the number one culprit in the US.

Even if someone waived a magic wand and turned all personal vehicles into bio-derived hydrogen burning affairs, the US would still be by far the number one energy consumer.

Single family homes, air conditioning in homes and commercial spaces, shipping, electrical production, street lighting, manufacturing, etc. in the US all burn large quantities of fossil fuels and pollute far more than automobiles.

It is a big joke to see these Hollywood celebrities driving around in a Prius claiming they are green when you know they own multiple 12k sq. feet properties.

Hybrids are the equivalent of hitting a mosquito on your leg and ignoring that you are bleeding out from the jugular.

mirth

Amen, amen.

john1701a

That's a sad excuse for not even trying.

The fix won't come from waving a magic wand. You have to start somewhere. And small steps have proven to be more effective, time after time.

JOHN

logic1

If you could provide even one example as to how using hybrid cars will alleviate urban sprawl, heat pools caused by too much pavement, and using fossil fuel for almost all of our energy needs, I would accept your criticism. You cannot and I do not.

Hybrids continue the fossil fuel spiral just a little slower. Add the envrionmental risk from making and disposing the batteries, and they are arguably less green than ICE only cars that can be melted down and recycled.

The research Toyota, GM and Daimler are doing with hydrogen fuel may be a step in the right direction.

Hybrids only go the wrong direction somewhat slower than most (not all) ICE onlys. That would not be a bad thing necessarily, were it not that so many are deluding themselves into thinking using hybrids can somehow bring us back to the Garden of Eden. Cars are not green. Deal with it.

varmint

Battery evolution make take different forms. Although expensive, some have worked with a greater emphasis on an ultracapacitor rather than direct battery power. The benefits being smaller packaging and faster power delivery.

john1701a

> If you could provide even one example

That's easy. I live in the land of ethanol, where E85 is commonly available and well proven. It is a significant step away from fossil fuels. A hybrid could run on E85.

Another is the fact that Prius offers an EV mode and the capability to recharge via the grid, which later will very likely be exploited.

 
> envrionmental risk

What risk? NiMH is benign & recycleable.

 
> Cars are not green. Deal with it.

Again, that is a sad excuse to not even try.

What will your children think?

JOHN

john1701a

> ultracapacitor

Hybrid Hybrids are in the works, joining batteries with ultracapacitors to take advantage of the strength each offers.

JOHN

logic1

Ask yourself how much energy it takes to grow the ethanol and where the energy comes from. Also ask yourself about using nitrogen fertilizer and what it is doing to the soil.

I think the real question your children will be asking is why their parents kidded themselves about the benefits of hybrid cars when they should have been looking at ways to make more dense living conditions and the accordant benefits of mass transit palatable.

You are kidding yourself about recycling the hybrid batteries. Most likely, making batteries from scratch will be cheaper than recycling. the returned hybrid batteries will be contracted out to the same Chinese outfits that are denuding parts of China recycling other developed nation electrical products. I guess you will tell your children they should not care about pollution so long as it happens to someone else's children.

john1701a

> Ask yourself how much energy it takes to grow the ethanol

No need. The studies are plentiful. The amount of energy needed has been reduced to minimal, after decades of refinement. It truly is becoming a practical solution.

And the fact that hybrids use fuel more efficiently in the first place is all that was needed to bump ethanol into the realistic zone.

By the way, my Prius runs on E10.

JOHN

nippononly

going a bit far here...I am with you on every point logic, and you are right, dead on in fact. But I still own a car, and I will bet you do too? And that we both commute to work in them? In my case I have chosen to rent an apartment very close to my office (about 2 miles) so as to reduce pollution and energy consumption (and wasted time), rather than buy a home an hour from here, with all the waste that would entail. It is a lower standard of living (a trade-off to make more of my time my own) that might produce some small environmental benefit.

Cars have to go in the end, it is true, and it will be interesting to see how they solve the consequent personal transportation problem five generations from now, or ten.

But here, we are debating based on the PREMISE that cars exist and people are driving them, a very reasonable premise, I think.

I wish we could add "Europe goes diesel!" to the title, because that is a very important thrust of automobile propulsion evolution too, and also holds promise of its own.