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What type of hybrid should I buy?

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  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    SlickWill - Exactly my point - I painted a scenario that the "wait two years" people would cause to happen if we all "waited two years."

    THAT scenario is the unrealistic one. My point exactly, which leads to my major point:

    Don't wait to buy a hybrid because it's NEW - that's a faulty position to take.
  • otis1otis1 Posts: 142
    Bottom line is people will buy anything.

    Yeah, look at you- you bought a prius :P

    I'm just kidding- I'm not bashing you or the prius- i actually really like the prius. But what's an appropriate amount of time to wait? if 5 years is better than 2 years- does this mean 10 years is better than 5 as well? by your logic, you should have waited another 5 years to see if there was any truth to this "battery issue." I'd say if you like what you see, the price is right, you've done your homework, and you think the company has a proven track record rolling out new technology, then go for it. Waiting 1, 2, or 10 years wont hedge your bet in terms of reliability.
  • mirthmirth Posts: 1,212
    Buying a car is 1/3 intellect and 2/3 emotion. That's why people still buy cars in their first model year.
  • Hey guys, sorry , I guess I didn't make myself clear. I think there are two things that are getting confused. With a conventional car that has been completely redesigned for a new year, the first year always brings some unexpected problems. Minor things usually. So it is best to wait a year or two until those bugs are worked out. I am not saying longer is better, but just let them fix the problems. Not a big deal. So if you want the newest thing then buy the car, many people do, there is nothing wrong with that.

    OK, now new technology. I am a conservative guy. When I first heard about Hybrid technology I realized how brilliant it was. Obviously electric wasn't going to work until there was a breakthrough in battery technology. When new technology comes out, the large car companies don't expect to sell a large number of them, they have other agendas. They will subsidize all the testing and put the cars through its paces. Do you really think they let the public find all the problems? Some people will buy the new technology, just like they bought the EV1. People will buy the car when it is ready, just like Prius is ready and Civic is ready. Look at the sales.

    You can't tell the public "buy new technology", and expect them to do it. Some people will buy it early, some people will buy it later. When the car is ready, that is when I will buy it, and most of America agrees with me. Look at the sales.

    I will tell you what, when that first hydrogen car rolls off the assembly line, you run and buy it, support them all you want. I don't have the money to blow on a hunk of @#$@%&.
  • "SlickWill - Exactly my point - I painted a scenario that the "wait two years" people would cause to happen if we all "waited two years."

    larsb - THAT scenario is the unrealistic one. My point exactly, which leads to my major point:

    larsb - Don't wait to buy a hybrid because it's NEW - that's a faulty position to take."

    Do you realize how that sounds? You don't understand what I mean by an unrealistic scenario? What I mean is a scenario that is not within the realm of possibility. You are the one that came up with the scenario saying that this could happen, now you agree with me that it is not possible? Think about what you are saying before you say it.

    I never said don't buy a hybrid because it's new. I say wait to buy new technology until it is ready. That is a free economy, sellers have to prove their products to us.
  • "Buying a car is 1/3 intellect and 2/3 emotion. That's why people still buy cars in their first model year. "

    well put mirth. exactly.
  • I almosty agree with your assessment 1/3 intellect & 2/3 emotion....BUT...I would figure it more like this....1/3 emotion ...1/3 intellect...and 1/3 budget. Nuff Said.

    P.S. I couldn't afford my 1st (used) Corvette till I was in my 40's. It had special meaning cuzz I did alot of dreaming of the day when I'd be in the driver's seat.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    I think we are just debating semantics now, but the scenario I proposed was what would happen if the "wait two years until the kinks are worked out before buying a new car model" people GOT WHAT THEY WANTED.

    It's NOT what I want.....The "unrealistic scenario" was the one which I pointed out to THEM is what would happen if they got their way.....It was not "me" presenting an unrealistic scenario which I then agreed with - not at all.

    I pointed out that the ridiculous "wait until a car has been on the road two years before buying it" crowd is doing a disservice to us all, and how, if they got their way, things would THEN become unrealistic.

    Does everyone else understand what I was doing? ;)

    As far as the SlickWill's statement "I never said don't buy a hybrid because it's new. I say wait to buy new technology until it is ready." -

    To that I say, "when it reaches the car lot it is REAL WORLD ROAD ready." If not, the carmaker would not put it on the road. Any new car is driven hundreds of thousands of miles in the R&D phase, and put through tremendous testing phases. That does not mean that they are PERFECT when they hit the showroom floor for the first time, but car makers do EVERYTHING POSSIBLE to make sure the car is safe, reliable, and road tested before Joe Consumer ever test drives it......The Hybrid technology in cars on the road today is all at least second generation stuff which has been on the road for millions of miles by now....The first Prius cars were tested on the road in Japan about 1994, and developed earlier than that....

    This technology is NOT new by any stretch, unless you are comparing it to the lifetime of the Earth or something !! ;)
  • mirthmirth Posts: 1,212
    BUT...I would figure it more like this....1/3 emotion ...1/3 intellect...and 1/3 budget. Nuff Said.

    Given the increasing number of people who are upside-down on their rides, and are financing for 84 (+) months, I'd say budgets are getting thrown right outside the window, lol.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,812
    "You mean like those redesigned small SUVs that had a major problem with oil filters, causing fires? Which SUVs were those, again?"

    Since your are uninformed on the 2nd Generation CR-V, I will enlighten you.

    There was nothing wrong with the 2nd Gen CR-V. In the second year of that model, someone changed the manufacturor of the oil filter gaskets. These gaskets stuck to the engine block pretty easily. If the oil change was done correctly by the dealer (the service rep has to visually check for the filter gasket coming off with the filter), there was no problem. If the service rep didn't check, it was possible to have the new filter double gasketed, causing an oil leak and possible fire.

    However, it wasn't the 2nd gen, it was the filter. It is a little known fact that many newer model cars put the catalytic converter as close as possible to the engine to increase the heat. Hence the possibility of having oil leak onto hot parts.

    I hope this clarifies the situation for you. I can't imagine where you got the idea it was a 2nd generation CR-V problem.

    I'm on my 5th oil change without problems. But then I have a really good dealer service department.

    Sorry to get a bit off of the topic, but I hate having bad facts just left standing there in a forum.

    I should also note that the NHTSB has no reports of CR-Vs stalling at highway speeds.
  • martianmartian Posts: 220
    Just yesterday, in watertown, MA. I thought these cars were all destroyed! Anyway, being a pure electric-what kind of range did drivers get with these cars in the frigid NE winters?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,747
    Thanks for the clarification. I supposed that means if a part comes from a supplier other than the auto manufacturer itself, then it is not considered a problem with that car. For example, if a hybrid had a problem with its battery pack, it would not be considered a problem with the hybrid car. Also, if there is any part in a hybrid related to the stalling problem you mentioned that was not manufactured by the automaker, then that too is not a problem with the car.

    That is good that there have been no NHTSB reports of CR-Vs stalling at highway speeds. Any reports of them catching fire at highway speeds, or did that always happen when they are sitting in the driveway or a garage?
  • falcononefalconone Posts: 1,726
    They're pretty reliable unless they catch fire. That is RARE!! I read that thing about the gasket too. Remember when it was in the papers? The press JUMPED on it!!
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,812
    "That is good that there have been no NHTSB reports of CR-Vs stalling at highway speeds. Any reports of them catching fire at highway speeds, or did that always happen when they are sitting in the driveway or a garage?"

    Oddly enough, the reports were at lower speeds, in the city, as I recall. I don't remember any at higher speeds. But a loose oil filter doesn't care what the speed is. The total number was around two dozen or so, out of the 175,000 or so sold since 2002...

    However, the issue is known, and is a human error with a definitive solution, unlike the potential Prius software stalling issues. Toyota has identified (and fixed) a problem with the 2004 Prius models, but that doesn't explain the 2005 problems. Hopefully it will turn out to be something other than software, but whatever it is, I'm sure they will eventually find and fix the problem (if it exists).
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,747
    So a hardware problem (like a defective oil filter, or transmission perhaps) is better than having a software problem? Personally I'd rather have a software problem. The fix, once found, is easy--load the new software. You can't load new software and do anything about the rattling of the Liberty's diesel engine.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,812
    "So a hardware problem (like a defective oil filter, or transmission perhaps) is better than having a software problem? Personally I'd rather have a software problem."

    There are two reasons that hardware problems are easier to fix:

    1. They are easier to find. Software code runs to hundreds of thousands of lines (sometimes millions), and it could be just one or two of those lines causing the problem.

    2. When one fixes a software problem, sometimes one introduces another problem. There was a wide-scale power outage many years ago that was traced to a couple of lines of software code in a generating plant. The change caused problems all across the grid. The problem went away when they but back the same code. They still don't know why that code had to be there (but I suspect is it still there today). This is just an example of the stuff that can go wrong with a "simple" software code change.

    The interconnectivity of software code is the reason we started this discussion. The Prius has to coordinate more code than other cars due to it's dual propulsion system.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,747
    Actually the reason we started this discussion is because someone asked for opinions on whether to get a Liberty diesel or Escape hybrid.

    Software is complex. I am in the software business so I know that. It is more difficult to redesign a piece of hardware (like a transmission for example) and apply the change to all affected cars if there is a design flaw. Also, both hybrid and non-hybrid cars cars have lots of software these days. So avoiding hybrids is no guarantee that you will avoid problems with software. Ask all the people having problems with automatic transmissions that act up and need to be "re-flashed", or that have problems with ESC programs, or with engine control computers, and on and on.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,046
    The first Prius cars were tested on the road in Japan about 1994, and developed earlier than that

    I'm not sure where that got started. My understanding is the first Prius was sold in Japan December 1997. They did not have a concept car until late 1995. The whole thing got started as a result of the Clinton Administration's PNGV in 1993. The US makers were included and Toyota was left out. Toyota started on their own in 1994 to develop a hybrid. Chrysler had a hybrid ready in 1997 that got 70 MPG. They felt no one would pay the additional $7k and pulled the plug. It was not till August of 2000 that the Classic Prius was offered in the USA. The Current Prius was not offered until MY 2004 with sales beginning in October 2003. So the current Prius, that has been very successful, has not been out for two years yet. The Classic Prius has been in the USA for 5 years this month.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,046
    You can't load new software and do anything about the rattling of the Liberty's diesel engine.

    One thing I have noticed with all the problems in the Liberty CRD and the Toyota Prius. The owners still love their car. I don't recall any of them complaining about the noise level in the Liberty. It has it's growing pains for sure. If you want an SUV that you can beat around the back country with I would say it is as good as any of them. What other SUV can you get 27 MPG on the highway and crawl over rocks and through deep mud without having it break? Then tow a 5000 boat to the lake.
  • falcononefalconone Posts: 1,726
    It appears that the problem with the Liberty is MUCH more serious than the problem with the Prius. At least they know how to solve the issue with the Prius. If you look at the Liberty Diesel forum virtually all the recent posts have to do with owners having tons of different problems. Most of them can't even tow because of the overheating issue. I had high hopes for the diesel Liberty and I do hope they solve the problems. Gary is right though, owners do love their diesels. A few folks even had DC take them back because of the numerous issues.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote gagrice-"I'm not sure where that got started. My understanding is the first Prius was sold in Japan December 1997. They did not have a concept car until late 1995."-end quote

    Gary, they were "road testing" the car in late 1994, and did not have a "auto show ready" concept car to show off until October 27th 1995. And way long before they can put something like a hybrid drivetrain actually into a car, they spend thousands of "lab hours" developing and testing the hardware.

    More details:

    http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/100302.html
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,046
    The point is the current Prius that is by all I have read much improved over the Classic, is less than two years old. The only hybrid that has more than 5 years on the road in the US is the Honda Insight, that went on sale in 1999. The Classic owners are already seeing some big repair bills associated with the hybrid system. The stalling issues did not surface until the 2004 MY.

    How much should a person pay to be an early adopter of a new technology? When I considered the Prius back in 2000, the biggest selling point for me was the 8 year 100k mile B to B warranty. I am not sure how long they offered that. That included ALL service for that warranty period. They did not want any other shops working on the car. The price was $20k plus TTL.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 5,913
    If you wish to discuss specific vehicles like the Prius or Liberty or whatever, please use the Browse by Vehicle search tool in the left siderbar to find the specific discussions for those vehicles.

    Let's keep this one restricted to more general points and helping folks decide what type of vehicle to buy.

    Thanks!

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  • Why the Prius?...Toyota quality and above average dealer service (at least mine was). The car really sells itself. Roomy seating and fairly comfortable seats. The Hybrid technology is superb once you get to a level of understanding it all. The milage goes without saying(47-55 mpg's) average. Hey!! It's a good looking car to boot. I like a hatchback for several reasons. Very versitile flip down seats. Storage everywhere. The CVT tranny is a blast...no shifting of gears. The transition from ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) to Stealth (Electric) is uncommonly smooth. When stuck in traffic I smile at the gas guzzlers eating fuel while I'm in electric mode burning nada gas. Going nearly 500 miles to a tank of gas is great!! Lastly, I enjoy my bumper stickers....(A Picture of a metal screw then O.P.E.C.) or Happiness is owning a Hybrid. My plate read 55 MPG. Nuff Said!
    Railroadjames( Want World Peace...Use Yer Turn-Signal) :)
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