What type of hybrid should I buy?

backy

"This was a totally Ford-designed system"
-- Bill Ford, Jr.

Well, there goes any thought I'd ever have of buying an Escape hybrid, at least in its first few years of existence. What sticks in my mind is Ford's last two efforts in passenger car design for the U.S.: The Contique/Mystour and the Focus. Do you recall how many times each of those vehicles was recalled in their early years? I do. I owned a '95 Mystique that spent much of its first year in the dealer's service bay. I added up the recalls on the Focus in its first couple of years and lost count at 13. And the hybrid system in the Escape is far more complex than anything in the Mystique or Focus. If I were Mr. Ford, I think I might try building buyer confidence by referring to the proven technology they have licensed from Toyota rather than saying "it's a totally Ford-designed system."

djasonw

...and now the '05 Focus is being introduced. Ford finally got it right with their last model year of the Focus (initial reliability). The really pulled a fast one and omitted stability control (stupid move). I hope the '05 has less recalls than the first gen Focus. That's all Ford needs now is MORE negative publicity.

mirth

...in addition to the compacts (Insight, Civic, Prius - which is still a compact IMHO), we've now got an SUV hybrid - the Escape. Although it's 4 cylinders, it offers equivalent power to the 6 cylinder ICE model. However, the price is $3K more than the 6 cylinder ICE, and with the incentives it's probably more than that. So I, the typical consumer who's not so worried about global warming, still don't have a compelling reason to buy a hybrid. The money you save in gas can pretty much never make up for the extra you paid up front, and there's basically no other tangible benefit (again IMHO).

Maybe the upcoming Highlander or RX400H will be able to justify their price premium with better power, but I doubt it.

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mirth

Okay, so USA Today reports in on the '05 Honda Accord Hybrid. So what does it offer me, the consumer who wants better fuel economy but is not so worried about emissions.

Good:
1. 15 more HP than the ICE Accord V6.
2. Fuel economy rated at 30/37 (ICE is 21/30).

Bad.
1. Costs $3400 more than the equivalent ICE V6. Assuming 15-20K of driving a year, and even assuming that the EPA rating is accurate, it'll take 6-8 years to recoup this cost.
2. Only offered in totally loaded form for a bit more than $30K.
3. Gimmicky, odd-feeling electric steering rather than hydraulics to save fuel.

The added horsepower is a step in the right direction, but I still see nothing to spend an additional $3400 on. So for Joe Average, still no go. Gives Prius owners something to trade up to I guess.

falconone

I doubt Prius owners would consider it a step up. Interesting article but no mention of skid control. BIG MINUS! Otherwise sounds really cool!

rfruth

A list of current and upcoming hybrids from fueleconomy.gov

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/hybrid_news.shtml

electrictroy

"what type of hybrid should I buy?"

First ask yourself, what is the MAIN purpose of my car? The answer is: Drive to work. Cars spend 99% of their time going to work or back home.

So that means you need a car that can carry one person (yourself) to the job & back. That car is:

The Honda Insight (70 miles per gallon)

troy

backy

Unless of course you have a family of more than two, or some friends, and sometimes need to haul more than two people. Then it doesn't matter if the main purpose of the car is commuting. Not everyone can afford to or wants to buy more than one car.

Kirstie_H

While this may be true for you, not everyone has the same needs. I sure don't spend 99% of my vehicle time going to/from work - it's more like 99% of my vehicle time hauling teenagers from point A to point C, before they remember they actually need to be at point B (an hour ago).

Folding my 3 teenagers into the back of an Insight would be interesting work, indeed.

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

gagrice

Folding my 3 teenagers into the back of an Insight would be interesting work, indeed.

You need a Suburban. I do think the Insight is the best commuter car on the market today. I would say it is safe to say that 90% of the cars on the road are solo, especially during the rush hours. If you have two vehicles and you commute to work you will do all of us a service driving the Insight. On the rare occasion I am on the road during rush hour in my Suburban I will not run over any Insights that are blocking the left lane.:-)

backy

You were kidding about the Suburban, right? There are lots of high-mpg cars and smaller SUVs that can handle three teenagers in the back seat. Of current hybrids, the Prius has a lot of leg room for its size. The HAH, when available, would be a better choice because it's wider than the Prius.

Kirstie_H

I'm just waiting for that hybrid minivan!

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

backy

I've seen reports mentioning a future Sienna hybrid, which would be in keeping with Toyota's plans to have hybrids across its lineup. But you may have to wait awhile, they're still working on getting the Highlander hybrid and RX400h out the door.

Kirstie_H

Yeah, I know... and by the time it hits the streets (and is available in MY price range), I'll be ready for the Insight

electrictroy

"Unless of course you have a family of more than two, or some friends, and sometimes need to haul more than two people"

.

The key word is "sometimes". Can't you take TWO cars for that small 1% of the time you are not alone? That's what my friends do.

I'm sorry, but when I drive down interstate 95, I don't see cars with 3 or 4 or 5 people. 99% of the cars I see have just 1-2 persons going to work & empty rear seats. What a gigantic waste of precious gasoline.

Like I said before, the Insight is ideal for that 1-person commute.

Or else compromise:
Car #1 = 70 mpg Insight for the sole commuter
Car #2 = a 5-seat car for family trips

Troy

backy

I guess you didn't see the rest of my post--I said some people can't afford or don't want two cars.

I own two 5-seat compact cars. I need them for several reasons, including:

* There are many times when both cars are in use with more than two people, e.g. my DW has two of my kids (who go to the same school) and I have the other car with my older son and one or more of his buddies.

* My wife has one car with the 3 kids and I am taking customers or visiting executives someplace.

* One car is in for service and we need all 5 seats on the other car.

Also, I almost never use my cars for commuting to work. I work out of my home most days when I am not flying someplace. When I do go to the office it's usually by bus. I put 7-8000 miles per year on one car, 10,000 on the other. So I agree the Insight is good for someone with a single-person long-distance commute (if public transportation isn't an option), but not the answer for everyone.

backy

Kirstie, there will be another hybrid option pretty soon for a family with 3 teenagers. I read a report in today's local paper about the 2007 Altima hybrid, which is due out in the summer of 2006. The report said the hybrid is based on the 4-cylinder Altima, which already has good power, plus will have a 100 kw electric motor (vs. 50 kw in the Prius), so power should be very good, and Nissan's engineers are claiming 40 mpg for the car. Since it's based on the 4-cylinder model, which starts under $20k, the price should be reasonable (unless they fluff it up with mandatory options).

Kirstie_H

I'm the opposite of you, backy - I put about 19K miles on my minivan last year. With 3 kids, it's a lot cheaper for us to drive places on vacation than to buy plane tickets. Our family & friends are spread out, so we take long car trips often. It's not unusual for us to take 12+ hour trips.

Unfortunately, even an Altima won't be comfortable for those trips, so I'm still holding out for a minivan (or 3-row vehicle). However, I quite like the Altima, and would be interested in a hybrid version circa 2007/8.

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

gagrice

The last 4 posts all make good sense. If you commute solo and can afford two vehicles the Insight is an excellent choice. If you always seem to have 1 or more passengers running errands the mid size sedan is ideal. If you take frequent trips with children a mini-van or medium size SUV is excellent. An Altima hybrid that gets 40 mpg would be a good alternative to the Prius. I think the Accord Hybrid is a big mistake.

I put very few miles on my 3 vehicles. I pick the one that fits the errand. If I was a commuter none of them would be practical. The 1990 Mazda 626 is lucky to get 20 mpg around town. The 1999 Suburban gets 13-14 mpg on short drives. I would like a mid size PU for most of my trips to Home Depot or shopping. Until they get one that gets decent mileage I'll just use what I have. Remember a big share of the pollution is in the manufacturing of a vehicle.

electrictroy

"I guess you didn't see the rest of my post--I said some people can't afford or don't want two cars."

I hear this argument a lot, but I look around and every one of my neighbors/coworkers has 2 cars: 1 for the husband/1 for the wife, because they work in 2 different locations.

The number of people who don't have 2 cars is an insignifigant amount. The argument has no validity for the majority of Americans.

Sylvia

I'm with Kirstie - only with a smaller version of the kids. I would LOVE a hybrid minivan. You cannot fit 3 Britex car seats in the back of an Altima, a Prius and certainly not an Insight. (I know, I tried the neighbors').

During the triathlon season, there are weekends where 3 car seats, my bike and gear all get loaded into the minivan and off we go (no airports for us - too expensive). I'd love a hybrid version.

gagrice

I would imagine there will be at least 3 hybrid SUVs on the market before they build a mini-van hybrid. Another option will be the Honda Odyssey V6 with VCM. It should get close to 30 mpg.

electrictroy

Toyota has sold the Estima minivan in Japan for about 2 years now. I don't understand why they won't bring it over to the USA.

mirth

They could bring it as the Scion xD. ;-)

backy

The argument has no validity for the majority of Americans.

I don't know about the majority, but in large cities (in the Northeast especially) it's a pricey proposition to own (and park and insure) two cars. And they have good public transportation in cities like New York and Chicago, so you can get by with only one car. The train uses a lot less gas than even an Insight.

gagrice

Not many cities have great rapid transit. In Southern CA the average commute is 32.4 miles round trip. Over 90% are solo drivers. I would bet no one leaves there wife at home without a car to drive. Even the poorest families in CA have at least two vehicles. most have more than that. I consider San Diego way over crowded, I cannot imagine living in NYC or Chicago..

backy

I was specifically talking about the Northeast, not those car-crazy people in CA. I've visited a lot in CA (have a sister there) and I know how many cars per capita there are. Yet some cities like San Francisco do have decent transit systems.

gagrice

I have a farm in Long Prairie MN. I don't recall the transit system being great in Minneapolis. I only used the airport never spent any real time there. All those farmers had 2 or 3 vehicles. I need to go back and visit one of these days I guess.

PS
Most Californians do not consider San Francisco part of the state.

backy

I have lived in the Twin Cities most of my life, and it has a pretty decent bus system and, as you may have heard, an emerging LRT system. Next time you fly in, hop the train to downtown. I can walk outside my front door and hop an express bus to downtown. Did you know the Twin Cities at one time (about 60 years ago) had the largest LRT system (streetcars) in the world? Anyway, Minneapolis is not in the Northeast.

How about those hybrids, eh?

daysailer

but, unfortunately, not of today.
The concept makes imminent sense and we definitely need to become a more energy efficient society. But the hybrid examples available to date still do not make economic sense and are not equal in performance and utility to their conventional counterparts.

I have three cars for two drivers and although I admire the Insights technology and fuel economy and presently drive a 2-seat car daily, the Insight could not substitute for my Miata, in spite of its larger cargo volume since it does not provide comparable dynamic capabilities.

railroadjames

Ahh yes DYNAMIC CAPABILITIES....What the heck does that mean ol'chap? I DO understand your enjoyment of the Miata but lets face it. The Miata hardly meets normal capabilities. (like 4 or 5 adults) or (decent storage).
As for your statment..."hybrids do not make economic sense and are not equal in performance" well, you'd have a hard time proving that to Nissan, Ford, Honda, and Toyota since they are selling in access of 450,000 hybrids and growing. As for performance well, look out Miata here comes more than three hybrids from Toyota, Nissan, and Honda that will give you a run for performance.(and more to come)
Last point is for you personally. Test drive a Prius or Accord hybrid and get back to this site. Then lets see what you've got to say about the cars of the future.
Culliganman (seeing is believing)

pjyoung

Hybrids don't make economic sense? Look at the Toyota Prius - seats 4 adults in comfort (a fifth in a pinch), has 16 cubic feet of cargo space (as much as the 300M I traded in), will keep up with traffic on the highway (road trip to Manhattan KS to watch the KSU Wildcats lose) had me in traffic running at 80 mph with no complaint from the engine compartment and got 44mpg in the process. My "conventional counterpart" was a Chrysler 300M, and the Prius is a far better built and capable vehicle than that car ever was. I've got over 450 miles on this tank of gas (around town and the aforementioned 260 mile road trip) and the "low fuel" light STILL hasn't come on. When I fill it...it MIGHT take 10 gallons. Comfort....capacity...and tremendous fuel economy....and it's "not equal"? Gimme a break. It's miles ahead.

texasmom

My 6th grade son said that Friday afternoon as school was letting out (11/19) he and his friends saw eight identical (except for different colors) "weird looking cars" driving around in the neighborhood. When they were going past the school they had to slow down and he asked a driver what they were doing. They said they were demonstrating a new hybrid vehicle. He said it's name started with an "I" but he wasn't able to catch it.
It's got me curious. Anybody know of a recently released hybrid vehicle starting with letter "I"--he's not sure about the name at all, for what it's worth.

backy

The only hybrid vehicle available for sale now or in the near future that starts with an "I" is the Honda Insight. It is weird-looking, but it's been around for several years so it's hardly new.

texasmom

My 6th grade son said that Friday afternoon as school was letting out (11/19) he and his friends saw eight identical (except for different colors) "weird looking cars" driving around in the neighborhood. When they were going past the school they had to slow down and he asked a driver what they were doing. They said they were demonstrating a new hybrid vehicle. He said it's name started with an "I" but he wasn't able to catch it.
It's got me curious. Anybody know of a recently released hybrid vehicle starting with letter "I"--he's not sure about the name at all, for what it's worth.

Sylvia

Get back on topic - this discussion is about "which type [or which] hybrid should I buy?"

It isn't about whether or not hybrid is the right answer, but if it is for the individual, then which ONE should they purchase.

rfruth

How are insurance rates for hybrids - Civic hybrid just another Civic, is the Prius insurance premium like that of a Camry ?

backy

The January '05 issue of Kiplinger's Personal Finance is their annual new car issue, and it has insurance figures for most new cars based on annual premiums for $300k liability and $500 deductibles on collision and comprehensive coverages for a 40-year-old couple in CA with spotless driving records. They don't show figures for the HCH, but it's $829 for the Prius vs. $789 for the Camry LE V6.

gagrice

CA is mandating the purchase of HEV or CNG type vehicles. With the CNG limited range the Prius & HCH are the only two left.

By January 1, 2005, the Department of General Services, CEC and ARB are directed to develop and adopt specifications and standards for all passenger cars and light-duty trucks that are purchased or leased by the state including, but not limited to, the following:

1) Minimum air pollution emission specifications that meet or exceed the state's Ultra-Low Emission Vehicle II (ULEV II) standards for exhaust emissions,

2) Procurement policies enabling evaluation of emissions and fuel economy and maximizing procurement of hybrid electric vehicles (HEVs) or substantially fuel efficient vehicles and vehicle that meet or exceed SULEV standards, and

http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/progs/search_state.cgi?afdc|CA

bjrich

Hi plyoung
Just found this article. Let us know how that tank ended up after the 450 miles. trip and around town.....Sorry Kansas lost.
I am going to see the Rams this sunday, and I have never been to a football game...they are probably going to lose..
Keep writing about the Prius. bjrich.

motownusa

I think the primary purpose of a hybrid is to save gas. But unfortunately, more and more automakers are making muscle hybrid cars that, while more fuel efficient than their gasoline counterpart, just cannot be considered very fuel efficient. I guess one such example is the upcoming Lexus RX400H. Vehicles such as this really doesn't benefit the environment when you consider that the manufacturing process of the batteries itself creates pollution and burns gas.

pjyoung

Those are pretty much my thoughts...It seems like the Hybrid concept is going to become "how much horsepower will this give me". The funny part is....where in the United States does anyone have a need for 350 of 400 hp? Not many of the SUV's I am seeing with that much horsepower are ever towing anything....most of the "sports cars" that have that much horsepower are going the same speed I am in my Prius, and my Prius is quite capable of getting me a speeding ticket....even on the interstates of western Kansas - where the tendency to push the speedo up a notch or two is strong (flat scenery will do that to you)

So it seems that 0-60 times are what matter most. And to be honest with you, I outgrew the boy racer phase before my 20th birthday...and these horsepower laden cars are affordable only to guys who are entering a midlife crisis and trying to recapture the glory days of their high school years. My Prius is rated a 0-60 in something like 10 seconds...nope, I won't be winning any stoplight challenges, but on the other hand, I haven't had any problems getting on freeways, I can make a right turn on red without impeding the flow of oncoming traffic, and I have power on tap to pass with confidence. And I find it to be a bit upsetting that the technology to deliver higher economy is being hijacked in the name of needless horsepower.

gagrice

So it seems that 0-60 times are what matter most.

I agree. Anyone that says they are trying to be environmentally conscientious, then buys a performance car whether it is a Ferrari or a Honda Accord Hybrid. I don't give them much credibility. If you are compelled to worry about 0-60 times. You cannot be worried about saving fossil fuel. The two are not synonomous. I believe those driving the current hybrids are wanting to do their part for the environment. The hybrid cars and SUVs on the horizon are more to salve the conscience of people that don't want to give up high performance to save the planet.

backy

The hybrid cars and SUVs on the horizon are more to salve the conscience of people that don't want to give up high performance to save the planet.

Fact: Many are going to buy V6-powered cars and SUVs, like Accords, Camrys, Altimas, Highlanders, and RX400h's. Isn't it better that people can buy vehicles of that size and power that get 30-40 mpg rather than 20-25? The current hybrids--Insight, Civic, Prius, and Escape--don't meet everyone's needs.

xcel

Hi Backy:

Isn't it better that people can buy vehicles of that size and power that get 30-40 mpg rather than 20-25? The current hybrids--Insight, Civic, Prius, and Escape--don't meet everyone's needs.

___So what would be wrong with the current Accord or Camry I4’s being VCM’ed and possibly IMA’ed/HSD’ed to receive 40 - 45 mpg combined, having V6 like performance, and still maintaining the I4 based PZEV emissions std.’s. Oh, and cost ~ the same as the V6 ;-)

___Or how about the Euro Accord’s iCDTi in an American sized Accord or CRV receiving 40 - 50 mpg combined for less then the V6 today? Maybe VCM them for 50 - 60 mpg combined? Maybe install the future Honda designed 1.5 - 1.7 L iCDTi w/ both IMA and VCM that would be good for 70 - 75 + mpg combined in the true midsized Accord sedan or CRV SUV? All of these mid-sized cars and SUV’s would have 0 - 60 times in under 10 seconds.

___We have plenty to look forward too but it isn’t quite here yet … although it could have been :-(

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

pjyoung

That's right, they don't. But... where is the need for 300 horsepower in any car or SUV? Please don't site trailer towing as a reason...there are far far more SUV's running around with just a sole occupant 99% of the time that the "need" for 300 horses to tow a trailer just isn't there. And the "soccer mom" who needs the capacity to take everything to the soccer match....my kids soccer coach drives a Honda Civic. He brings a bag full of balls, cones, and other needs, along with his wife and two daughters to each game. He apparently doesn't need 300 horses under the hood to haul them all. The only thing he can't do is beat the 350 horsepower Durango from 0 to 60.

I guess to summarize, I change your wording from "The current hybrids don't meet everyones needs" to "The current hybrids don't meet everyones wants".

gagrice

Fact: Many are going to buy V6-powered cars and SUVs, like Accords, Camrys, Altimas, Highlanders, and RX400h's.

That is what free choice is all about. They can buy a Ferrari if they can afford it. The connotation that goes along with hybrid is saving the planet. We have shown many times that the manufacturing of a hybrid is much more polluting than a conventional ICE. Then when you add the fact of very little or no improvement in mileage over the more economical vehicles of the genre. I don't see where we are going ahead with this kind of charade. A 4 cylinder Accord will equal the mileage of the Accord hybrid with less overall damage to the environment. Same goes for the Ford Escape Hybrid. Edmund's with their Escape Hybrid are doing 25.5 mpg overall much worse than EPA. The only gains I am seeing is in the price.

backy

How do you know the Camry hybrid will be a V6? Do you have some details on that, I haven't seen any yet? The Altima hybrid will be a 4-cylinder, and the prototype is delivering V6-like performance and 40+ mpg fuel economy. Who knows, maybe Honda has plans to offer the HAH in a 4-cylinder model--they are notoriously tight-lipped about their product plans. For now, someone who would buy a V6 Accord could by the HAH instead and save gas.

backy

But... where is the need for 300 horsepower in any car or SUV? Please don't site trailer towing as a reason...

Why not? Some people need to tow trailers, don't they? How about a little empathy for people who can't get by without a large vehicle? I don't need a large vehicle myself, but I recognize that some people need them, e.g. the horse rancher that needs to tow a horse trailer might very well need that 300 hp SUV or pickup. I know for sure a HCH or Prius couldn't do it. As for soccer moms, I know many moms (and dads) that regularly need to haul more than five people. So a minivan or SUV might work best for them. Again, I think we need to respect other people's needs and not assume that what is right for us is right for everyone, and look down our noses at others because they don't drive the most fuel efficient vehicles on the planet.