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Lincoln Zephyr/MKZ

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Comments

  • fbcjrfbcjr Posts: 19
    I've been looking to replace my 1998 Mercury Mystique for some time, and like many on this board, was captivated by the Zephyr concept. Also like many, I'm not as captivated by the production look, but it's not a dealbreaker for me. My primary concern is with the powerplant. :( I bought the Mystique in '98 because, at the time, its 170 hp was about is good as it got in the non-lux sedan market. I'm a hp guy, and now that I'm ready to move upscale, I want more power (and RWD, but that's not a switch the Zephyr will be making, I'm sure). ANT14, if you know (and are at liberty to say), is Lincoln considering a higher-output motor for this car? If so, when would it be available? Depending on the price Lincoln charges for this car, it would be hard for me to pass up an Acura TL with 270 hp for the Zephyr. Given the stout, low-price competition (i.e., TL, G35), the Zephyr could be a hard sell in what is already a crowded market unless Lincoln brings it in at about 30k fully-loaded (including the fancy stereo). The TL comes with everything but the kitchen sink for not much more and has more horsepower and the Acura nameplate to boot (think resale).
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,281
    I think you've put your finger on why it's been two weeks since there was a post on this board & why there have been only 8 over the past 2.5 months.
  • fbcjrfbcjr Posts: 19
    It's kind of sad, actually, that "American" manufacturers are having so much trouble making good cars at competitive prices. Until this year, I've never owned anything but an "American" car (Ford or Chrysler products). But, when I looked at mini-vans this year, I had to go with the Honda Odyssey because it clearly was the best vehicle for the money. I sympathize with GM's and Ford's (to a lesser extent) legacy costs, but despite that sympathy, I simply can't justify putting Union workers' kids through college at the expense of my own. I guess this rant might be a little off topic, but it still comes back to the Zephyr: I will buy it if Lincoln can make it competitive with the Japanese manufacturers' cars, but I've lost confidence that American makers can still do that and meet their legacy costs.
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    Yes, the Duratec35 will see duty in the vehicle later after introduction, as well as AWD.
  • chris65amgchris65amg Posts: 372
    Are there any guesses as to its horsepower and torque numbers? If they aren't above 250, then I doubt if many will bite.
  • martin3martin3 Posts: 17
    I hope that the horsepower for the car will be close or better than 2005 Toyota Avalon or Lexus ES. If not the price better be much lower if made in Mexico! I agree with Chris65amg that the old 3.0 liter V6 is a sad outdated power plant.">
  • fbcjrfbcjr Posts: 19
    Thanks ANT14! That is good news. 250+ hp (with VVT) and AWD would be enough for me (and I think enough to make the car generally competitive). I'll wait for that car. Is the hold-up on availability of the 3.5 due to supply constraints (because the 500 needs it first)?
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    Personally, I think no Lincoln should have less than a V8 engine. I'm wondering why though, the 3.0 is panned as being so outdated? IMO, it's too small for the application, but lt's thoroughly up to date, and a hellovalot more advanced than 90 percent of GMs engines are.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    GM's 2.8 (really the only similarly sized powerplant to the 3.0L from Ford) is a better engine, IMO.

    ~alpha
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    Ok, I'll play - in what way is GM's 2.8 better, or more technologically advanced?
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    Well, for starters, it uses variable valve timing, which is more advanced than the non-variable valve timing used in the Five Hundred for example. So, while smaller in displacement than that engine, it produces 7 greater horsepower at peak. Yes, peak power of the 2.8L is high on the RPM range, at 6500, but indicates that this engine wont get winded. And its not lacking for torque either, with the peak of 195lb ft occuring at a low 3300 RPM. The Duratec is able to trump that by a dozen, but needs an additional 1200 RPM to get there.

    I have not driven the 2.8L CTS. But I have driven several Duratec motors and they arent bad engines at all... but they never seemed eager, and sound and feel less refined that similarly sized engines from Toyota and Honda, for example.

    ~alpha
  • fbcjrfbcjr Posts: 19
    The 2.8L in the CTS is derived from the same 60 degree V6 block that has been around since 1980, so it is actually older than the 3.0L Duratech. The addition of VVT to the 2.8L is recent, and Lincoln is supposed to get VVT for the Zephyr. The age of the 3.0L Duratech is not really the problem -- the problem is horsepower and perhaps more acutely, torque, given the target market. You can increase the 3.0L's horsepower (and perhaps to a lesser extent, torque) in various ways, but it is typically more user-friendly to increase displacement, which is why giving the Zephyr a 3.5L option is very appealing to me.

    Here is a link with the history of GM's 2.8L 60-degree V6: http://60degreev6.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&arti- d=17&page=1
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    Please note that I never said the CTS's 2.8L was a newer engine than the Duratec.

    ~alpha
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    for the mutual civility demonstrated here. All valid points made.
  • fbcjrfbcjr Posts: 19
    I'm glad Alpha01 corrected me -- I wasn't trying to start a flame war and after rereading Alpha's post, I see that my post wasn't really responsive. Ultimately, my point was that a block is a block is a block. At least to some extent. Obviously some things can't be changed without changing the whole block -- it's either a 60 degree block or it's not. But, you can upgrade an older block design in many ways, as GM has done with the 2.8 by adding, among other things, VVT. That said, Alpha01 is right that the CTS version of the 2.8 does have more advanced features than the 3.0 in the 500. I don't think that is surprising given that the CTS is a Cadillac and the 500 is a Ford. I expect Lincoln will upgrade the 3.0 for use in the Zephyr.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    There is no doubt, the Zephyr needs that new 3.5L engine too, frankly, IMO, it needs a V-8. Me personal opinion, no Cadillac or Lincoln should have a 6 in it, they should be performance machines, but that's just me..... What do I know...
  • fbcjrfbcjr Posts: 19
    I've been looking at this car a lot lately, and while it's not the concept, it's still a good looking car. I like it better than the G35, the A4, the CTS, and the 3's, and I like it just as much as the TL. All concept cars get watered down. Those flared fenders on the concept -- how would you like them when you scrape 'em on a parking garage wall or even a high curb? Bottom line: this car is attractive enough. Give it the 3.5 with AWD and price it no higher than a TL and I'll take it home.
  • buckwheatbuckwheat Posts: 396
    I think post 276 by [ferguson] is informative and I believe he wanted to share a link in that post that contains significant information on the production model :

    http://www.autospectator.com/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=66&page=0
  • theman123theman123 Posts: 170
    Well this should livin up the board just a little bit.
    I think the Lincoln Zephyr is a sharp looking sedan and it should do well for Lincoln. The Zephyr isn't hardly perfect, I dunno why in the world Lincoln has this love affair with Auto trannies but if they made a manual 5 or 6 speed available with the Zephyr it would make it a pretty sporty package. That's one of the biggest complaints that I hear about the Ford Fusion. Ford doesn't offer a manual on V6 only a 6-speed auto. However, I feel It's going to struggle for a little bit but once they (Ford) drop in the 3.5 V6 and make it AWD it should do better. Also, I think that people should hold off on judgment on the appearance of this car. It looks allot better in person than it does on the pics that you see floating around the internet. especially when it's in black. :shades:

    Also, if they drop in the AWD 3.5 V6 does anybody know if it's going to have a Manual tranny ?

    Well anyway, here's the question for now. which one would you take a 2006 Lincoln Zephyr or a 2006 Aruca TSX ??

    Zephyr in Black Pic #1

    Zephyr in Black Pic #2

    Zephyr in Black Pic #3

    Zephyr Interior
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,281
    The Lincoln dealer cabal would sooner be shot than have to deal with a car with a manual transmission.

    They'll point to the short-lived LS manual experiment, during which a tiny fraction (<2%) were delivered as manuals. Of course, the dealers wouldn't stock them for test drives, and many actively discouraged those who wanted to special order one (virtually the only way to get one).

    The low number of manuals was a self-fulfilling prophecy for Lincoln, and it sounds like a similar, though not quite so dramatic, situation exists in CTS-land.

    The North American public (that no one ever went broke underestimating) does not embrace expensive cars with manual transmissions.

    Which leaves me in a bit of a bind, given that I don't care for the Teutonic reliability situation. So far (80K miles) the LS is holding up okay though, so it's not an immediate need.
  • buckwheatbuckwheat Posts: 396
    About 40 photos related to the production model: http://tinyurl.com/7sofq

    Compare it to the concept: http://tinyurl.com/b72c4

    Steve, you're right , and I don't think any thought has been given to it, chances of a standard in the Zephyr will be quite slim.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    I saw it at the auto show and it looks much better in person, although I think I like the Fusion and Milan a little better.

    If you view it as an entry level luxury car to compete with the Lexus ES330 I think it's quite competent. People buying these types of cars don't care about hp or manuals.

    Ford seems to be playing it safe lately with new Lincolns. Neither the Zephyr or the Mark LT pickup truck offer much above and beyond their Ford and/or Mercury counterparts other than styling. My guess is they'll wait and see if it sells reasonably well and then add the differentiating features (more power, better suspensions, more gadgets) in year 2 or 3. Probably smart from a business standpoint but frustrating for customers who want one now.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,281
    Allen,

    You choose to call it "playing it safe," but I'm inclined to think it has more to do with what they can do for $1.85 or less.

    Otherwise known as playing it cheap.
  • buckwheatbuckwheat Posts: 396
    Allen, I saw the concept in person at the NY auto show a couple of years back but have not seen the production model in person, when you say you say "I saw it at the auto show" are you referring to the production model? I still see what appears to be distinquishing differences aside of the obvious.
  • buckwheatbuckwheat Posts: 396
    Steve, while the "LS" is not in this class I sure hope Lincoln learned from the presentation of that car with it's multiple foibles most all of which appear to have been resolved so that the Zephyr hopefully will not endure a repeat. Mechanically/electronically it will be mostly the same as Milan/Fusion so whatever affects one will undoubtedly affect all, playing it cheap when it comes to three models is certainly not good for Ford's longevity.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    I did mean playing it safe from a financial investment standpoint. If they put a lot of R&D into a new model like the Mark LT or the Zephyr and it doesn't sell, then they've wasted it. OTOH if they can test the market first and get enough sales then that will justify the additional R&D to add features. That's exactly what they did with the Navigator when it first came out.

    I'm sure some of that logic was borne out of a very small budget to start with, however. So cheap probably applies as well.
  • chris65amgchris65amg Posts: 372
    I saw my first Mark LT in the parking lot outside of a store today. I walked up to it and looked at it, and I was strangely unimpressed. It looked just like an F-150!!!! It didn't even have a good luxury aura. I was disappointed. :(

    If Ford can make this more than a Fusion re-skin, it will sell. If not, it won't.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    Yes, the production model was at this year's auto shows. I saw it in Atlanta in April. It was not available to sit in - it was on a podium as was the Fusion and Milan.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    I was hoping for a nicer interior (not that the F150 isn't already nice) and a few added features, but it appears that it's just a reskinned F150 with a nice grille and wheels. Not that it's bad, mind you, but that's quite a premium ($4K IIRC) for the styling and slightly better warranty.
  • mitchfloridamitchflorida Posts: 419
    Apparently the Lincoln Zephyr will be manufactured in Hermosillo, Mexico while the Acura TL will be made in Marysville, Pennsylvania.

    I want to buy "American" , so which car should I get??
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