Lincoln Zephyr/MKZ

displacedtexan

Agreed - they can use their advertising dollars much more effectively. The ad for the new Camry is very good IMO. What Ford needs to do is start showing the cars, not the executives behind them!

[Deleted User]

Not every buyer of near-luxury cars need RWD or gobs of HP.
That's why we have choices.

I didn't say the CTS was necessarily better. I said the BTS and Zephyr are more similar products. The CTS is bigger, RWD and offers a V8...like the lameduck LS does.

displacedtexan

Got ya. "Step up" meaning quantitative, not necessarily qualitative.

Choices are good. That's another thing that turned me off of Acura (I know - this isn't the Acura forum). I don't like their current move of "all or nothing." I could have, but didn't want to, spend as much $$ as the TL was asking. Perhaps if they had stuck to the "basic" model and saved the high output motor, the bluetooth-enabled radio, upgraded suspension, etc. for a Type-S variant, they might have had my business. Choices are good.

bigt

Anyone know of any good shops out there in the DC area doing customizations?

Also what do you guys think of this article:

Lincoln Zephyr Sales Surpass Targets, Win Back Import Buyers

(DEARBORN, MI) FusionUnleashed.com - Sales of the new Lincoln Zephyr are soaring.

"They're hotter than a firecracker," said John Moroni, owner of Westgate Lincoln Mercury of Lombard, Ill., near Chicago. "We can't keep them in stock. Every one we get is sold."

Zephyr sales are surpassing company expectations.

http://www.fusionunleashed.com/index.php?categoryid=9&p2_articleid=91

[Deleted User]

It is corporate BS. The Zephyr is surpassing some very conservative inside projections...but its actual numbers are low for a reasonably priced near-luxury sedan. The LS did way better right out of the box (outselling the ES300) and no one called that a firecracker. It's actually a production problem. They don't presently have the capacity to make more. When they do, sales might increase somewhat, but it is unlikely they will see it become a best seller.

ANT14

The Euro, Caddy BLS/BTS (whichever) can't be sold in N.A. Cadillac has publically stated that because of conversions, it wouldn't even break even no matter how hard they tried, and then cited consumer perception where many wouldn't accept a Ion based Caddy...

ANT14

a Saab 9-3 platform based vehicle

akirby

Insiders are reporting that the new 3.5L Duratec engine to be used in the 2007 MkZ and MkX/Edge will actually be rated at 265 hp, not the 250 previously reported. And yes, that's on 87 octane.

pmerk28

That's great that the 2007 "Zephyr/MKS" will get a new motor with enough horses to compete with the big boys in the segment.

What Ford won't do is produce the concept car body, stop making it in "dune pearl" for the geezers and stop dealers from installing landau tops on them.

Don't see any TL's with Landau tops in an old fogey brown color with pinstripes. Give up Lincoln. I was going to give you a shot but you're just too old in image at this point. Produce the concept exterior with 20 inch rims and I'll come right over.

bigt

Pulled up behind the first Zephr I saw since my purchase. It was the same color as mine. Folks were looking. Most people who see it like it a lot.

Here is a good review of the Zephr

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/04/09/003548.html

06zephyr

I have yet to see a zephyr with a "landau" top and have seen more younger people driving it than the "geezers" you speak about. The image is changing and the zephyr is a step in the right direction.
What will you be driving when YOU are a "geezer". Hopefully you will make it to the "geezer" part of the lifecycle. If you dont like the car or image that is fine, but dont degrade the people that do. The "geezers" you speak about are the reason that you can pick and choose as you do and enjoy life in the America

:mad:

[Deleted User]

Well, that was almost straight from Ford Media. Most new cars these days can be praised by themselves, as the standard of design and execution has advanced so much. That said (there's a lot of good machinery out there), the Zephyr unfortunately fails to be a standout, as it easily could have been with a bit more effort on Lincoln's part. This is not to slam those who buy it, as it is a good vehicle. But Lincoln needs a real winner, not hype about a reasonably good effort.

akirby

Define winner.

akirby

LINK

akirby

And I hate to say I told you so, but.....

#754 of 1052 HP by akirby United States of America Feb 09, 2006 (1:06 pm)
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Why are you guys assuming the final engine will only put out 250 hp? Remember the current 3.0L? It was rated at a wimpy 210 hp in the pre-production literature, but ended up at 221 hp by the time it hit production. Remember the Ford GT? Rated at 500 but actually hit 550 in production. The Mustang GT is advertised at 300 hp but tests are showing it's really putting out around 320. I think the 2007 models will actually be advertised at 320.

Actual output will be at least 260, maybe higher. On top of that it will be PZEV compliant which the competition can't match. It should also have a better torque curve.

When the final numbers are released and real world test results are available and it seems underpowered THEN you can gripe about it. Right now I think it's much ado about nothing.

scootertrash

While you're at it, don't forget dig out all of those messages from 6 months ago where you tried to beat me in post after post when I maintained the name Zephyr sucked and you thought it was great.
After all, those product planners know best, right?
BTW; I'm still waiting for that list of cars that have been renamed 6 months after introduction.

[Deleted User]

Well, that is subjective of course. But how about something that outsells the direct competition? In terms of Lincoln, the original Navigator seemed like a winner. Even the LS did very well in its first year. The old Mark coupes from the 70's, 80's and early 90's scored really well in sales.

I'll give you that the MTZ should do a lot better (if the production is there) with 265 hp and AWD option. But adding some knockout styling as well could make a huge difference. But that's not realistically possible for years.

Maybe the MKX will take off like the Navigator originally did. After all, the Nav wasn't that much different visually from its Ford counterpart. Lincoln needs a "winner" to get more people into its showrooms. One hot model can boost sales of other models sometimes.

exalteddragon1

EXCELLENT!

This is exactly what ford needs right now. Its cars needs this kind of power. Now the question is, will ford take the 3.5, and put it in the fusion/Milan with 250/260 or so horses?

This would be awesome. GM's 3.6 can apparently do up to 270, but 265 is not far off. Although toyota does still lead, its only with the lexuz 3.5 with 300hp. That's okay b/c at 265, I'm sure ford will sooner or later add Direct Injection and knock everyone out of the market.

This is a really good sign for Ford, and for the future of US Mfg in general. I truly hope ford keeps the qualit together and meybe America still has some fight left in her.

Next step, of course, is to shift production back to the US... but 1 step at a time.

ANT14

Most importantly...on regular fuel.

akirby

I still think Zephyr is a much better name than MkZ. After seeing all the various names listed together (MKS, MKZ, MKX) it looks pretty silly to me. I give them credit for trying to have a consistent theme and I know there's history behind the Mark name, but I think they need a little more differentiation in the names and they need to spell out Mark.

nvbanker

>What Ford needs to do is start showing the cars, not the executives behind them!<

That is SO true! Same on Websites. We buy the cars, not the assembly line workers or the CEOs. Iacocca started this trend back in the 80's, with his "I did it my way" ads,and they sold. But hell, you wouldn't WANT to show the K-cars, you're better off selling Iacocca, and he knew it.

akirby

how about something that outsells the direct competition?

I agree, but that doesn't happen overnight. The Zephyr has only been out for 6 months. It won't overtake the market leaders that quickly no matter what it looks like or how fast it goes. The Lexus ES350 is a 3rd or 4th generation car that's been around since 1992. Let's see what happens with the 2007 improvements before we pass judgement.

The good news is over 40% of Zephyr buyers are conquests and they're shifting flex assembly line production from Fusions/Milans to more Zephyrs to meet market demand.

akirby

Although toyota does still lead, its only with the lexuz 3.5 with 300hp.

That's 306 hp in the IS350 but only 277 lb/ft or torque, and that's a very expensive engine. The ES350 is only producing 272 hp in the standard version.

If you're willing to use expensive components, do a lot of expensive R&D and use premium fuel you can get a lot of hp out of any modern engine. Look at the M3/M5 engines. But the cost goes up exponentially.

brucelinc

Akirby, you have a Fusion so I know you can answer my question. If others have insight, please comment:

Exactly what does "L" do in these transmissions? Presumably it does different things at different speeds. Specifically, if I am driving down a mountain road at 45 MPH and want some engine braking, will "L" simply lock out overdrive or does it go lower? Does it keep downshifting if I slow down more? If I take off from a dead stop in "L" will it upshift at all - and to what gears? Does "L" upshift and downshift within the lower gear ranges - such as 1st through 5th - depending upon the speed and throttle position?

I reviewed the Zephyr manual and it didn't tell me much. Any idea where I can learn more about the functionality of the 6 speed automatic and it's D-L shifter? I will need to rent a Five-Hundred 6 speed and try it myself but any comments would be appreciated.

akirby

I haven't used it very much. It definitely provides engine braking but I'm not sure about the gear selection. The Fusion manual only mentions engine braking.

theman123

265hp, 250 lb/ft torque running on 87 octane. Damn, :surprise: that's a powerful V6

displacedtexan

That's something which catches my eye. Marketing needs to tout that. And production needs to move these into current vehicles ASAP. Conventional, even bland, styling can still sell if the output is behind it - witness Lexus.

theman123

Conventional, even bland, styling can still sell if the output is behind it - witness Lexus.

Conventional, even bland. Oh come on, Lexus is the greatest luxury car in the world. They've never been bland. I mean there cars have never looked like anybody else's car (Mercedes Benz). Lexus's designs have always been revolutionary I mean absolutely ground breaking in ever generation. How could you say that. OK, sarcasm off
PS
Just kidding
:P

nvbanker

"The Lincoln and Caddy conversation and points might need to be tailored in the sense of, they no longer compete with one another. Cadillac has moved up market, at least that's what the memo said 3 years ago... "

So, ANT, what does my former Navigator now compete with? The Denali? You're conceding that the Escalade is better?
Having had both, I still don't think so, other than the hp, which is not relevant to most of us - the Navigator has plenty of power even if the Caddy will outrun it.

scootertrash

That's exactly correct- In price and HP, the Denali is the Navigator's competition. The Escalade has left the Nav 103 hp and $10-15k below it.

chuck1959

I agree. If Lincoln keeps up with that MK crap another marque will go down the tubes!

ANT14

It would be the Denali. it's just, in essense, Cadillac is going upmarket. Whether it's worth the price of doing so, lies on the buyer.

bigt

The more I look at it the better I like how the concept looked. I still love my Zephyr but the concept had some sexy curves to it.

http://www.maximum-cars.com/Cars/CarPicDisplay.php?carnumber=632&pictureID=2&pic- index=1

scootertrash

That was a good looking car.

What's the thinking behind Ford showing off prototypes that look so good and then either never making them (Adrenaline, Lightning, Continental, Mark X) or finally producing a car that is a pale caricature of what they teased us with, which only disappoints anyone who was paying attention.

How is it that other manufacturers can actually deliver what they promise?

Has anyone in Dearborn ever heard of "under-promise and over-deliver"?

priggly

who moan on and on about the way the Zephyr/MKZ looks. I think it looks fine. The prototype was just that, a prototype. It's time you started commenting on what is right with the car which is one of the best executions out of Detroit in many years. With the upcoming high HP/torque V-6 which runs on regular gas the car will be a serious competitor for anything on the road. Stop damning it with faint praise.

displacedtexan

Hear, hear. The production car does look fine, and I don't think the departure from the prototype is that radical.

calidd

I've looked closely at the Zephyr and really like it. Trouble is, my '95 Lexus ES 300, with under 95K miles, is still in great shape and has classic styling. Unfortunately, car magazines compare new releases to other new releases, not to previous makes of other models, which would help in deciding whether to trade in. I know that the Zephyr has more safety features than the 95 ES offered, and it has the new THX sound system (and I know that I don't like the new ES), but what other advantages would the 06 Zephyr have over the 95 ES?

In short, I need a push to trade in my ES for the Z.

oldman26

Does anyone know when the 2007 MKZ will arrive and is it being shown at the New York Auto Show? Picture in Motor Trend looks like existing Zephyr although it is noted to have "new front end"

[Deleted User]

That is it. It doesn't look any different, even though they added a horizontal chrome strip to the existing grill and another chrome trim in the bumper and around the fog lights. To call it a new front end is a real stretch. Of course Lincoln needs all the "stretch" it can get right now!

akirby

What happened was the concept car was built with the hood too low for the production engine. The engineers told them but they built it anyway. When the hood and fenders were raised they had to modify the rest of the car to keep the proportions, including the rear end.

buckwheat

Other changes from the 2006 Zephyr to the 2007 MKZ include an updated "waterfall" grille - which shows seven "teeth" on either side of the central Lincoln emblem (the Zephyr has nine).

buckwheat

Allen, you imply by your post that the concept, which I saw at the 2004 NY Auto Show, did not have a production 3L Duratec. What engine did it have? The new Cyclone Duratec35, although with more HP & torque, reportedly has the same demensions as the as the current production Duratec30..

akirby

This came from one of the engineers and he didn't say which engine. It may not have even been a running concept - don't remember.

brucelinc

The media ford site has been updated to reflect the horsepower ratings. Maybe I missed it earlier but now they indicate the MKZ will have "higher spring rates, upsized anti-roll bars, and increased damping force."
It sounds like the MKZ might be tuned a bit more toward handling than the Zephyr.

exalteddragon1

Better than the concept, more straighforward and classic Lincoln style. The concept looked too mcuh like an old mans car. I won't get started on the interrior with the exeption that in the right colors it looks very modern.

There is nothing wrong with making a 1960's type of interrior scheme. I just think it worked better in the Navigator where they had more room to play with.

the 1995 Es Has nothing on the Zephyr/MKZ. If you wait for the MKZ you will be officially 2 light years ahead of your Lexus.

Even the production facility at which this car is built is more advanced that the 95 ES. The only 1 issue that i could see you have is quality. HOWEVER, the Zephyr of today probably has better quality than the Lexus of 12 years ago. I am sure this car is a good choice to replace your lexus. The sound system alone would be worth it.

akirby

they indicate the MKZ will have "higher spring rates, upsized anti-roll bars, and increased damping force."
It sounds like the MKZ might be tuned a bit more toward handling than the Zephyr.

That was one of the criticisms so it's a good sign they're reacting so quickly. Sounds like they're moving back to the Fusion suspension tuning - which has been praised in every review.

nvbanker

"I have said it time and time again. Ford has too many business men and not enough car guys. GM, conversly, has too many car guys and not enough business men."

Well, I agree with half of your statement - the Ford side of it. But GM has too many car guys? Who, Lutz, yes, and remember originally he worked for Ford before going to Chrysler. Waggoner? Maybe. That's two. If they have so many car guys, why are their cars so pathetic looking for the most part? Especially inside!

[Deleted User]

That is changing quickly. All of the GM models introduced in 2006 (either as 2006 or 2007 models) hve very respectable interior styling. Plus, they are issuing new models with much greater frequency than FoMoCo. Ford is spending lots of time converting plants to flexible manufacturing and Ford has yet another new recovery plan.

What I don't see is a plethora of new models coming on line in the next couple years, like Chrysler and GM have confirmed. The 500 needs a total re-skin, not just s new front end. The Fairlane needs to be here ASAP. Why show it, when its introduction was not imminent? Nothing at all is proposed for Mercury. Lincoln plans are nebulous. Where is the creativity? The Edge looks good now, but the redesigns of competing models makes it look awfully conservative. What the heck??? Move, guys, or you're done.

nvbanker

" All of the GM models introduced in 2006 (either as 2006 or 2007 models) have very respectable interior styling."

Well, evidently, you have a different yardstick than I do. Because I don't agree that the styling has improved that much. Do you seriously think the Lucerne has an interior worthy of the Buick Flagship? I don't. Do you think the new Impala has a quality look to their dash? Cause I sure don't. Don't even get me stared on Pontiac... a line that should just go away, IMO. Cadillac is so bad on the interior quality, black flat plastic all over the place, it's not in the league with other cars in that price bracket. Plood and satin nickle plastic in lieu of chrome (ah, the old days) don't cut it for me. The interiors are the major gripe I have against the General. But, some people like 'em. They actually do.

[Deleted User]

It is only opinion of course. I give credit to GM for beginning to move away from the awful Pontiac and Oldsmobile interiors of recent years. Is it enough? Perhaps not, but it is a step in the right direction. Like Ford with the 500 and Fusion interiors: better than before, but still plasticky compared to some of the competition in the same price ranges. BTW, I like the 2007 Escalade interior far more than the one in the 2007 Navigator.