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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    I don't think the possible pronunciations nor the connotations are somewhere we need to go ...
  • marleybarrmarleybarr Posts: 334
    Hwy.50 from Fallon, Nevada 250 desolate miles to Ely, Nevada with only 2 "towns" in between, Austin, pop.375 and Eureka, pop.655., sounds like some high-speed driving could be done for limited periods of time.
  • jjacurajjacura Posts: 808
    "Hwy.50 from Fallon, Nevada 250 desolate miles to Ely, Nevada"

    I remember this strech better known as "Loneliest Road"...drove it in April '66...brings a little smile tho' when I think about it. I was driving a '66 VW Beetle....not exactly the kind of machine you'd bury the throttle on! Ha Ha! Fond memories of a 24 year old having a ball driving to California to look up old army buddies.
  • liferulesliferules Posts: 531
    Not surprisingly, Lexus won, again.

    Surprising were the results of marked improvement in BMW, and the fact that Audi beat out Acura and Infiniti, contrary to people's opinions that Audi's aren't as reliable as those 2 makes (M owners, don't get all in a tiff, I know the initial reliability for the M's isn't yet in the mix...). Interesting nonetheless.

    http://www.jdpower.com/pdf/2005069.pdf
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,207
    A couple of the N-S state highways within NV make US 50 look busy by comparison.

    From Tonopah up through Austin on 376, then 305 up to Battle Mtn, then picking up 120 North of Winnemucca on NW into Oregon provides lots of solitary driving.

    But, it's all good.
  • cmybimmergocmybimmergo Posts: 265
    "The dumb part was that he got away but decided to repeat the same run in the opposite direction!"

    You realize that if stupidity were a crime, 98% of the world would be locked up.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    The IQS study is about quality and less about reliability. I believe you can really only measure reliability over a longer term than the first 90 days of ownership, which is what the IQS measures.

    take a look at the 5-year dependability studies. These studies reveal how reliable cars are.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I agree with Max that the IQS study really doesnt mean too much except for cars that literally fail right off the lot. For example M-B did very well, but we wont know until these '05 cars reach the 3 year study level if Mercedes really has improved quality that much over the awful '03 and '04 cars. While Audi did well, VW apparently still has A LOT of work to do. I'll bet the Cayenne\Toureg dragged down any improvements they've made.

    cmybimmergo, what a great world that would be.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,207
    I'm with you all the way.

    I'm about to begin my sixth year with my most recent car, and this is when the fun can begin. My last car was pretty decent through four years, after which it stranded me twice.

    I get a chuckle (at a minimum) from people who boast about the "reliability" of the car they've had six months, or weeks. Tell me about 150 - 200K miles and/or 10 years.

    By the bye, where are these "5-year dependability studies" found? They're going to tell me what I need to know. Hmmm. . .I'm guessing we're going to have to wait about six years to get anything worthwhile regarding most of the cars that are most discussed here, and I'm probably going to get an itchy trigger finger in 2-3 years.

    Oh well. . .
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    You realize that if stupidity were a crime, 98% of the world would be locked up.

    This is very true. The funny part is that the police here couldn't believe what their radar was telling them. They actually went to a Honda dealer to confirm that the particular bike he was riding could actually do 160mph. They didn't have a clue.

    He got a 1 year suspension of his license and 30 days in jail for that little stunt. I'll try see if I can find the story.

    Lexusguy,

    I agree that the IQS really doesn't speak much about long-term reliability/durability, but still I'm shocked to see Acura barely clear the average. It must be those stories on other forums about the RL's awd system locking up. Mercedes' improvement here should, and I say should equal some improvement in 2008 when the 2005 cars are looked at in the dependability study. Fingers crossed.

    M
  • bartalk3bartalk3 Posts: 692
    Why does the media make such a fuss about J.D. Power reliability surveys? Ninety days, indeed. Ridiculous. Absurd. The best reliability data come from Consumers Union annual survey of tens of thousands of car owners across the country. Both in terms of sophisticated statistical analysis and sheer comprehensiveness, they have no equal.

    (P.S. about The RL. If you read that problems board, you'll see that there have been innumerable electronics glitches and gremlins that have plagued the car since its launch).
  • cmybimmergocmybimmergo Posts: 265
    Wouldn't it though? Just think of all those EMPTY roads to drive...sigh. LOL

    merc1, what these guys don't realize is that stupidity is not macho; it's just stupid. (But it makes for great press.)
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    "Why does the media make such a fuss about J.D. Power reliability surveys? Ninety days, indeed. Ridiculous. Absurd. The best reliability data come from Consumers Union annual survey of tens of thousands of car owners across the country"

    You do realize that JD Powers surveys and Consumer Reports surveys come to similar conclusions on a consistent basis?
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Yeah it is strange, it appears that Acura is slipping lately. CR obviously has no data on the '05 RL yet, but the '04 Acura TL's ratings aren't that great. The RL is significantly more complicated electronically than the TL, and then there's that whole untested AWD system thrown into the mix. It doesnt bode well for the RL's reliability.
  • turnbowmturnbowm Posts: 76
    bartalk3,

    The first 90 days of ownership applies to the J. D. Power Initial Quality Survey, NOT the Reliability Survey. Agree with you on the Consumers Union (Consumers Report) reliability data.

    Martin
  • cybersolcybersol Posts: 91
    The Initial Quality Survey (IQS) is mostly about fit and finish. Is everything put together right, aligned, and rattle free initially? There are occasional complaints in the first 90 days about more serious issues, but its mostly about fit and finish.

    The Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS) on the other hand is about the reliability of 3 year old vehicles. This is about how well vehicles hold up over the course of a typical lease.

    Both surveys give good information that rivals CR, but if you confuse the two surveys all you get is garbage. Some people should not use information without adult supervision.

    Enjoy, cybersol
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Some people should not use information without adult supervision.

    Some people should not use this information at all.

    Lies, damn lies, and statistics.
  • cstilescstiles Posts: 465
    Okay, let's break this down a bit....

    First of all, JD Power (and CR) deserve credit for bringing quality to the forefront. No question about that. But JD Power is also a profit center, pure and simple. Although it pretends to be an independent group of researchers in white lab coats, their revenue comes from selling its logo and rankings to companies who choose to use it in their marketing/advertising. Their methodology can change yearly to fit their agenda to sell their name and present themselves as quality "experts." McGraw Hill's recent acquisition of JD Power was purely designed to maximize M-H's bottom line revenues.

    CR is slightly more pure since they accept no advertising or sell their name. But they certainly have their political and profit-driven agenda. IMO, neither is a true non-profit, and both are driven to maximize revenues. Thre's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but you have to filter their results with those realities in mind.

    Interesting that JDP's #1 ranking entry luxury car is the long-in-the-tooth IS300/Sportcross. Sales for the 2005 IS300 are down -50%, and this entry level model currently represents only 4% of total Lexus sales for 2005. It's been bit of a dog for Lexus, and the new model is at least 2 years late. The Lexus website still shows the Sportcross, but I think it's next to impossible to find one today, since they have basically bombed in the marketplace. I don't deny their stellar quality, but it's interesting to me to see JD Power wave a huge quality award for a car that has basically been ignored by the market for 1-2 years, and is on its deathbed. Makes you also wonder if their quality rankings are truly apples to apples, given the huge differences in sales volume within the models listed. Their # 2 ranking car is the X-Type, and volumes have already been written about this car's problems. Makes me question JD Powers' credibility and methodology.

    I also think it's loopy to rank factories based on these quality ratings. To slam a factory for poor quality, because they happen to build a poorly designed car, is disingenous and puts the blame in the wrong place. Is it really relevant to give factory A a gold medal, factory B a silver, etc., based on problems reported in the first 90 days of ownership by people who bothered to participate in a survey, or attend an evening focus group in exchange for a free dinner?

    These rankings always have some element of "garbage in, garbage out."
  • bartalk3bartalk3 Posts: 692
    I agree completely with you on JD Power. They are a marketing organization, and their surveys are not completely disinterested and independent. I seem to recall that at one point, anyway, they only listed those models that ranked "above average" and omitted those ranked in the lower half. The reason: not to offend anybody. That compromises their integrity, in my view.

    CR, on the other hand, IS truly independent. They are not dependent on pleasing any manufacturers. Their revenue comes from reader subscriptions, not from the companies whose products they test. They do make money (which pays their employees, pays for their research facilities, and finances their publications), but they are as non-profit as you can get, i.e., their primary purpose is not to make money but to evaluate products and report their results to the public. They've been doing that since 1936. Their politcal agenda, if they have one, is consumer protection. In a world of advertising hype and rampant conflicts of interest, they are about as trustworthy as you can get.
  • cstilescstiles Posts: 465
    Yes, I agree that CR is independent, but because of their overt alliance with "consumer protection" issues, they are in bed with many political action, lobbying, consumer interest organizations, and industry organizations, both formally and informally. CR subscribers also tend to fit certain demographics (age, education, income, political affiliation), and CR is careful to continue to maximize their revenues with this captive group.

    I'm not criticizing them....they are what they are. They are best when they are testing and ranking washing machines. But lately they have flexed their muscle into political issues that run the risk of diluting their strengths. It's the old paradigm of wanting to get larger, more influential, and more successful, but there's a price to be paid in going there.

    And, they ranked the BMW 5-series so highly, so they MUST be a little bit nuts (just kidding).....
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