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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • frisconickfrisconick Posts: 1,275
    German cars are clearly inferior to Toyota's no doubt, and even more inferior to Lexus, Acura and Ifiniti. :P Why spend a fortune on car when it's always in the shop. :cry:
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Aw cmon. Enough with the generalizations. I was recently at Toyota and in the service bay was a new Avalon with leaky water and smell problems. Try telling that owner of a new $38K car it's a superior vehicle. :) You ought to spend a few hours in a Toyota or Lexus dealership listening to the service advisors, it might open your eyes. :cry:
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    I think you've fooled yourself into believing people see no intrinsic value in German cars other than to spend to money.

    Au contraire, I do see German cars as different from Japanese (and Lexus in particular), and certainly recognize that some people prefer more sportiness, or different styling, from what Lexus offers. And that's all that matters to some people...prestige has nothing to do with their choices. But such people imho are in the minority. I think that status/image matters to at least some degree to most luxury buyers, including lps buyers. And to some, it is of primary concern.

    So I recognize that sportiness, styling, etc are real factors, and that prestige isn't everything.

    You, however, seem in denial that status and prestige have anything at all to do with the sales performance of BMW and MB vs say Infiniti.
  • frisconickfrisconick Posts: 1,275
    You ought to talk to MB mechanics, my brother is one, they have horrible reliability problems and cost far more than any Japanese car, same with BMW although BMW is better, and these cars cost thousands more than Japanese cars.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    You're going to tell me a person buys a 745 for $70K buys it for the image, but a person buys a $70K Lexus, buys it for what. The image of course. But in this case, the subtext is: "I have a $70K car, but pleae don't notice".

    So if I'm in denial that status has nothing to do with MB/BMW sales, you've convinced yourself it has everything to do with it.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    I'm not specifically talking about MB, although Toyota did just issue a recall for 345,000 vehicles or some such huge number. Yes, I agree the mags say MB has an issue, but BMW fares quite well.

    I would not say BMW has reliability problems, just as I would not say Toyota produces the perfect car.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    German cars are clearly inferior to Toyota's no doubt, and even more inferior to Lexus, Acura and Ifiniti. Why spend a fortune on car when it's always in the shop.

    You clearly left out a word here..."reliability". The German cars are inferior to the Japanese in that respect sure, but as the sales numbers prove not everyone cares about this as much as you do. There are other things about a car than what CR says about it. For CR to put an Avalon over all those other cars says volumes about what they look for in a vehicle.

    When Toyota and Lexus discovers the things that make these unreliable cars appeal to so many people then they'll have something, until then they aren't worth mentioning, especially Toyotas. They aren't luxury cars anyway and have nothing to do with this board.

    Infiniti on the other hand is very, very close to doing just that, something that eludes Lexus when it comes to feel/styling/sportiness. We'll see if the new IS changes that for them.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    "Maybe it's also true that people buy Lexus products because they believe no one will notice they just spend a bundle of money on a rebadged Toyota that has ho-hum styling with interiors that drive me up a wall."

    While you are certainly entitled to your opinion of Lexus interior design, lets try not to drag up the old "rebadged Toyota" argument, ok? I know its an easy, cheap shot to take at Lexus, but it makes you lose a bit of credibility. Toyota has just as much of a right to make a car that costs $50K, or $70K, as M-B. Until very recently, they've been doing just that in Japan. Lexus exists because Toyota knows that the North American market is extremely badge concious, and that we wont buy cars that cost $40K or more from a company that also sells econo-compacts. (See: VW Phaeton). No NA market Toyota offers the 4.3L V8, and no NA market Toyota has access to the LS or GS platform, just as GM wont let Chevy use Cadillac's Sigma stuff. Sure, one can make the argument about the ES and RX, but one could make the very same argument about Maybach and the S class.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Sure, one can make the argument about the ES and RX, but one could make the very same argument about Maybach and the S class.

    How so? They don't share a platform.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I was talking more about the identical switchgear, vents, etc that are shared between the two.
  • begbiebegbie Posts: 5
    You are dead on! When I first started looking in this segment, my first thought was the Bimmer 5 series. When I sat inside for the first time I was so disappointed, really bad interior and everything about it seemed overrated. After driving the Audi, Lexus & Infiniti....my gut said to go with the Infiniti DESPITE the fact the bimmer badge is the most "prestigious." I'm glad I did my M35 rocks and, living in L.A it seems 1 out of every 3 cars is a Bimmer 5 or 3 series (every assistant in my building has a leased base 325).
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Oh, got it. I think that and the unspectacular styling has been the reason why the Maybach hasn't gone over well. The Rolls is much more "bespoke" as they say.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I thought sales of the new BMW Rolls werent so hot either
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    In looking at the sales for this segment for this year vs last year I have to wonder where all these buyers are coming from? I mean the segment doubled for this month compared to last year as you said. That is what I can product igniting the market for sure.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I thought sales of the new BMW Rolls werent so hot either

    Well they aren't but they're better than the Maybach in the U.S. and most foreign markets. Both companies were on something to think they'd move 1000 units each at 300K+ prices.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Enjoy your M. I know the feeling about BMWs, they are all over my neighborhood as well. Thats one of the things I like about my XK, theres only 3 or 4 that I can remember seeing in town. One of them is a Silverstone that belongs to a Jag-crazy friend of mine.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    You're going to tell me a person buys a 745 for $70K buys it for the image, but a person buys a $70K Lexus, buys it for what. The image of course. But in this case, the subtext is: "I have a $70K car, but pleae don't notice".

    So if I'm in denial that status has nothing to do with MB/BMW sales, you've convinced yourself it has everything to do with it.


    Please show me where I suggested that status is the only reason that every MB/BMW owner has bought their car? I think I have stated repeatedly that imho status is one of the reasons for most buyers.

    Please show me where I suggested that Lexus owners don't care about status? Well I can speak from personal experience...status does matter to me, and that's one reason we bought an LX not a TLC, and one reason the LX probably won't be replaced by a Sienna.

    Whereas you have trouble admitting that status is a factor with at least some MB/BMW buyers.
  • Considering how high up the order the Avalon finished, I guess I must owe a beer -- now who gets it again???

    It does seem odd to compare the cars compared.

    Maybe now someone will undertake a test of the Cadillac STS AWD with the Chrysler 300C AWD. :shades:
  • Thankfully we haven't drummed lexi300 out of the forum here -- I was worried for a moment when we started down the path of noting the comments were all about style and less so about performance.

    Let's keep the group as broad as possible, espeically since this forum seems to be one of THE most active of all the forums.

    Anyway lexi300, of course your impressions are 100% correct -- they are your impressions, after all. I can only pick one little nit -- your comment about the interior leads me to believe you did not spend any time looking at the new A6 which also has a fabulous interior (and some will argue "best in class" interior.)

    I was very impressed with the Lexus, too (and I did NOT drive it, but I did spend time in one at the auto show -- it was beautiful.)

    When it came down to it, though, my choices were the M35X and the A6 3.2. Although I eventually came to get the A6, I had originally put my money down on the M35X -- another car with a terrific interior.

    Glad to read that you like the performance -- overall, most of the guys (not gender specific) who write about the Lexus give it positive points for everything but performance claiming that it is too isolating and bland.

    The exterior styling is a huge improvement -- boost the power about 10% and I would think Lexus would be able to fear less from the M.

    Keep participating. You are a breath of fresh air. :shades:
  • rrobrrob Posts: 51
    Very similar experience - I shopped and drove the BMW 5, Acura RL, Audi A6, Infiniti M35/45 and VW Passat (the dealer, I learned, stopped selling Phaetons). My, very subjective, impressions. Best interior: Audi; most practical: Acura; best driving: Infiniti M45.

    I went with the M45. I have noticed my friends certainly have checked out the car pretty thoroughly - quality of materials in the interior as much as anything else (well, of course, I only let them be passengers!) The Infiniti is doing well, so far, but does not have the immediate cachet of the German brands. So what? I like it and also like have a less common car.
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