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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • janssenjanssen Posts: 74
    These aren't really in the same price category.

    And obviously you do care about other items besides road feel, control and balance. How else would you explain the radio, which would distract from the concentration needed to drive at the limit, or the A/C, which would certainly steal from the power of the car, and alter the handling because of the extra weight?
  • rich545rich545 Posts: 386
    Well put and I think it's something we miss too often. It benefits all of us to have better cars in the class in which we choose to shop. No question that the competition in the segment is much more intense, and I couldn't be more happy about it. It will only drive BMW and all of the others to do even better. The way I see it, BMW and MB created this segment and they have both continued to make fine additions to it. Now they both faced much more pressure to put out quality products. People have been hard on the E60, but it was one of the first to get redesigned and many of the other cars in the class that were redesigned after it incorporated the good things about it (specifically the M). So BMW will face-lift it in 2007, and I would guess completely redesign for 2010? I'm sure they will consider everything people have said and everything their competition has done over the lifecycle of the E60. So what I'm saying is that the next generation 5, and even the present E60 will benefit from increased competition.
  • mnjoemnjoe Posts: 36
    Mark: Been too busy yet to post it, but I'll give you a review of my new STS AWD shortly. Have had the car 10 days/1000 miles. Love it so far. Went through the analysis of all of these cars and more. Agree with your comment about affording the AWD STS. I had eliminated it early but found the employee pricing and subsidized lease made this $66k car comparable with these other 50-55k cars. Like you I had made a down payment on a M35x (you may recall those posts from earlier). Full report to follow.
  • janssenjanssen Posts: 74
    No matter how many times you repeat that motto, you can't make it so.

    Perhaps BMW could change it to:

    The "Ultimate Driving Machine". In our price category. Well, not actually, but if you would like to give us 10 to 14 thousand more dollars, then we ARE the ultimate driving machine. As long as you also eliminate all those sports cars more expensive than us, like that OTHER German manufacturer, or that Italian fella. Then in that window, more money than our class, but less than the other cars that are better performers that cost more, we are really, REALLY, the ultimate driving machine. So let's just say we are the ultimate driving machine that has the BMW nameplate, and after the less expensive and more expensive driving machines have been eliminated.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    In this particular price category I found that the ultimate driving machine is the 545i.
    Pure driving pleasure. No doubt about it.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    As you indicated, the BMW slogan is a marketing ploy but within the price framework, for many of us, it is dead-on accurate.
  • rich545rich545 Posts: 386
    I guess that all I can say is that my experience with the two BMW dealers (one in suburban NY and one in suburban IL; both large volume) was been different (better) than your's was. So given that fact alone it is obviously more a dealer-by-dealer situation. I'm sure there are "bad" Infiniti dealers as well. Face it, car dealers in general aren't know for being fun to deal with. That's why when one exceeds our low expectations even by a little bit we laud them like the second coming of Christ. It is pretty unbelievable that they didn't let you take the 545 out on the highway. That's where it really would have shown you what it's all about. But I was in a Mercedes dealership to get my wife's ML appraised for trade-in and I was asking about a car on the showroom floor (CLK55 AMG convertible). Now, the salesperson knows what I drive and I was practically begging him to try to sell it to me. He just told me what it cost and left it at that. If I was him I certainly would have gotten one driven around front for a test drive. Hell, the car is so hot it practically sells itself. I could already picture the "discussions" I would have had with my wife trying to justify trading in my 1 year old 545 for it. But he dropped the ball. Oh well, maybe he REALLY thought the car would sell itself sitting on the showroom floor. I doubt it for $80K, but that's just me. Anyway, no I don't think anyone that has a attitude about their car, be it BMW, Mercedes or Infiniti, is justified and certainly not "better" than anyone else. In fact they are worse. I would just say that there are many forms or attitude and they certainly aren't limited here or elsewhere to BMW or Mercedes drivers.
  • hihomikehihomike Posts: 111
    "We must be in the golden age of LPS cars -- there are, practically speaking, no bad cars in this bunch"...

    Interesting assessment - never really thought about it that way, but I guess you are right. Considering all the competition for luxury performance vehicles, there are really no such things as "bad cars" out there. Thinking back when I was a kid, there were lots of bad cars out there, but we were too ignorant back then to realize how unsafe and how gas-guzzling cars used to be. Quality build was a car that was built at the factory on Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday, never on Friday or Monday because of the workers' lack of technology and precision. Now-a-days, robots and computers have standardized the build quality for most of the cars in this market segment (I still question the poor build quality on american cars since I've had my fill of them and their planned obsolescence).

    The only real disagreement I would have with your statement above is that Mercedes Benz IS NOT building the quality car they used to build.

    But, I guess you're right - there are really no BAD CARS out there in this luxury performance category when compared to what used to be out there.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Its just a marketing slogan. GM is much more guilty of slogans that were frankly outright false. Perhaps they mean ultimate driving LPS? You could give them that one... until the Panamera comes out anyway.

    "Ultimate driving" is frankly very subjective. "Ultimate" doesnt necessarily mean the fastest car, or the most expensive. One could argue that a Lotus Elise is more Ultimate driving than any cushy Porsche.
  • janssenjanssen Posts: 74
    Which price category would that be?
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    You know what? They can even take out the bloody radio and I would still take the 545i.
    Just leave me the ac(must have in Tampa) and the hard-wired Valentine One.
  • rich545rich545 Posts: 386
    Aren't we taking this slogan issue just a little too far? I mean, it really doesn't mean anything to me. BMW could choose to call their cars The Greatest Things Since Sliced Bread, and I wouldn't even pay attention to it. All the car companies come up with catchy marketing slogans for their cars. It's not really surprising that all of them think their cars are the best is it?
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 27,643
    This discussion is about the specific cars listed at the top..

    If you want to discuss the luxury marques in general, there is a discussion for that specifically (which I no longer subscribe to.... to avoid long-winded diatribes about non-specific generalities.. not that I'm naming any names here.. )

    So, anyone got anything to say about the cars listed above?

    regards,
    kyfdx
    (not the host)

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • rich545rich545 Posts: 386
    I have to say that for all of the MB bashing, I think they are actually getting much better. The new ML is a great truck; much better than the previous version in every way. I honestly think they are getting past their reliability problems. They've spent millions upgrading their factories to address quality issues. Sure, it's bad that they got so complacent, but at least they're dealing with it now. I have to say that I like a good number of their offerings now whereas I didn't 5 years ago. The CLS is hot, the entire AMG line-up is awesome and the ML500 is a truly impressive truck. Seems to me they are headed in the right direction.
  • janssenjanssen Posts: 74
    I OWN a late model 5 series. It is a great driving car.

    Funny thing is, it is not perfect, and the ownership experience has been far from perfect. I wish all the beemer owners here a very different experience, hope that all have a great time! But facts are facts-the segment has become quite competitive, and just repeating the mantra over and over and over gets boring.

    We are here to share our opinions. I have learned a lot here, albeit not from those who just repeat the slogan, and I guess I just don't want to hear some guy bragging how he has the best car ever, bar none (expect those that are better!), and flaming those who bring up valid points to discuss. There are many intelligent posters here, from whom I have learned a lot.

    I bought a new M45 Sport, almost $60K of my own money, knowing it wasn't a perfect car. I am happy to list the pros and cons (I did), but don't particularly like some flamer saying something based on a marketing slogan that should replace all my research and test-driving. I hope my input can help some other person in a small way when they are deciding what to try and buy.

    And the BMW ain't perfect. No car is.

    I agree with you, that there are different needs and priorities. The Elise did very well in a recent track competition against Porsche and Mercedes and the Viper and the Corvette, but it is not an everyday car. The Corvette actually ended up on top.

    So I just don't like the mindless, "Forget everything-The Ultimate Driving Machine-The Ultimate Driving Machine-The Ultimate Driving Machine-The Ultimate Driving Machine-The Ultimate Driving Machine-The Ultimate Driving Machine..." ad infinitum. I guess that is a lot easier to say than to address the facts.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Some criticisms of my new 545i after one day:

    BMW needs to take a serious course in cup-holders.

    I do prefer the window switches on the center console. Reaching over with my left hand is awkward for me.

    When you open the trunk, you can get a concussion. That thing springs open with a lot of force and unfortunately, needs a lot of force to close it.

    The automatic rain-sensing wiper switch turns off when shutting the car down and must be re-set each time you start the car again. Not a lot of effort but annoying all the same.
    Same thing with that obnoxious parking sensor which can beep you into a severe migraine. I can
    turn it off but when the ignition is turned back on the next time, there it is, almost giving me a heart attack. It's almost like somebody is shouting "MayDay! MayDay!"

    One good thing is I can disable the parking sensor through iDrive permanantly.

    Not a perfect vehicle. None of them are. Nor are any of them bad choices.
    Anyone having an A6, GS, M or 5 in their garage has made a good choice.
    It is only human nature that we tend to defend the brand we went with.
  • msu79gt82msu79gt82 Posts: 541
    You know what? They can even take out the bloody radio and I would still take the 545i.

    Those twisty mountain turns that look like a blast to drive on that all car companies (not just MB) use for advertising are so far from reality to be worthless for most of us. Sadly most of us drive our cars to work and back, to the mall, to a movie/play, etc in the flat drab asphalt jungle of suburbia :( The closest most of get to those fun roads is a vacation once a year. I believe that to most folks (maybe not on this board) its the L in LPS (not the P) that matters the most. An LPS w/o a great radio :surprise: - thats a mandatory necessity in the daily rush hour traffic of the real world. :blush:
  • lexi300lexi300 Posts: 36
    Thanks for the kind comments, but don't worry about losing me. I like a good, spirited discussion. Any chick who plunked down all this money for a car JUST based on looks would be loco in my book too.

    But, for most of us all, looks do count for something.

    You know, when I went looking around Memorial Day, I did NOT check out the Audi. I have a friend who drives an Audi, but it's not a brand new one, and the interior didn't phase me much. I didn't see it among the cars I wanted to check out. After reading the forum, now, I surely will check out Audi in another 5 years or so when I'm in the market again for a new car.

    But, for that matter, I also didn't check out the Infiniti. I've never been much of a Nissan fan. My Toyotas (a Celica and two 4Runners) have had a radiator and an oxygen sensor between them in about 15 years. Reliability matters a LOT to me. I'm not saying that Audi or Nissan couldn't match this -- I'm sure many of their cars do -- but for me I wanted to stick with a known quantity. I checked out Mercedes, BMW, and Acura because I was new to the LPS segment and wanted to see how some of the other brands were. I was almost going to get the RL until I really spent some time with the GS. Now I wish I had looked at Inifinity and Audi too, but I'm very satisfied with my choice.

    (I bought my GS300 with cash. I gather I'm in the minority. I don't trade my cars in every 3 years, instead, for me it's more like every 5 years, when they're pushing about 90,000-100,000 miles.)

    On the GS and performance, I'm sure Lexus' upcoming engines in the GS will make me envious. And the GS300 surely isn't for towing or repetitive mountain driving. But it gets me quickly around obsticles, and most of the time I find myself fighting to slow down to 9 miles over the limit so I won't get a ticket. I'm almost never running over 2800 rpm. So, practically for me, more hp just wouldn't matter. The AWD was much more important.

    Enjoy!
  • msu79gt82msu79gt82 Posts: 541
    So, anyone got anything to say about the cars listed above?

    I want one :shades:
  • janssenjanssen Posts: 74
    "These road tests mean SOMETHING"

    Yes, they do. Then leave the editorializing about subjective matters out of the equation. Most people who drive the "Ultimate Driving Machine" understand it's about road feel, control and balance and luxury second. It's this same road feel and control which helps it win at the track -- even though the competition might post better numbers in other performance measurements.


    As soon as you ask us to leave out the 'subjective editorializing', you talk about "road feel, control and balance". So which is it? Do you have numbers to measure these?

    You are contradicting yourself. If the BMW can't beat the others with numbers, you use subjective terms. Then you ask us not to do the same.

    And you can drive yours at the track. Most of us don't do that. When I go to the track I will drive my Carrera 4S. Wanna race?
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