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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    That may be true also, but you have to remember they'd been doing things the same way for years and years and probably took some time to adjust and/or make changes in their pricing structure. All of this is just speculation anyway. I'd really like to hear from someone that worked at MB or BMW from 1990-1995 or so.

    M
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    "Well actually the Q45 being the sportier of the two probably caused BMW to offer a V8 and the LS400 caused Mercedes to offer a V8. Maybe???"

    Well, it's hard to say anyway what caused what. It's not as if BMW or MB came out and said, "Yeah, we need to put a V8 in our cars because of the Q45 (or LS400)." It was probably a combination of both, but I think the Q had a greater impact in the "engine" department, from what I remember in the press.

    The LS, of course, was a much bigger success, but the Q45 was pretty successful as well in its first iteration, and received a lot of acclaim from the press. Too bad Infiniti messed it up with stupid advertising and trying to emulate Lexus (later for a bit) instead of sticking to their original "performance" image.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Yes, going from the 4.5 to 4.1L, 266hp V8 in a heavier car was probably one of the dumbest things Infiniti has done (and this is a company with a bad track record). Q41? Fortunately Infiniti and Acura seemed to have realized that Lexus is basically untouchable by them, and rather than trying to out lux the lux king, they should make sportier, more exciting and very competitively priced cars that now has Lexus taking notice and saying.. hey maybe we should up the sport ante a bit.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    The 2005 G35 sedan will get 277 hp / 270 torque, while the 2005 G35 Coupe 6MT Sport will get around 295 hp. I would not be surprised if the M35 gets a bit more than 300 hp of the RL, just so that Nissan can say that they have class leading hp. I'm sure the G35 sedan hp increase is a direct response to the 270 hp TL. In fact, almost every Nissan/Infiniti seems to have class leading horsepower.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    If the M35 hits 300hp+, that would mean that Nissan would have to increase the power of its 4.5L engine as well, as you cant have say an M35 with 310hp, and a M45 with 340. It would be nice to see Infiniti push the M45 to say 375hp, just to laugh in the face of E, 5, and A6.
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    The M35 is supposed to be a more refined car, no?

    Won't jacking up the HP on the M35 negatively affect NVH?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Not necessarily. The VQ is a great engine. True its a bit gruff and "brash" compared to the calm and quiet Toyota and Honda sixes, but the VQ flies in the face of "DOHC engines have no torque", something that Honda and Toyota cant claim. If Cadillac can get away with an OHV, I think the M35 will be fine.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    Toyota engines usually have more torque than horsepower. The 3.3L V6 is 225bhp but 240lb-ft of torque.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Thats true, I was thinking of their 3.0L Inline, as thats whats in the GS300.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Nissan/Infiniti is not really known for less NVH relative to Honda and Toyota anyway, and a few more horses probably won't make that much of a difference.

    I don't necessarily think that Nissan would make the M35 300+ hp, just that I won't be surprised if they do. The Altima redefined the midsize V6 family sedan class in 2002 in terms of power with the 240 hp Altima. After Honda matched with the 240 hp Accord in 2003, Nissan promptly raised the Altima to 245 hp in 2004.

    Same thing with the G35 and TL. The 2003 G35 had 260 hp, then Acura came out with the 2004 270hp TL, now Nissan is coming out with the 277hp 2005 G35 sedan.

    So it looks like Nissan is determined to stay at the top in the hp race, with Honda egging them on. The RL/M35 battle could be the same thing. So I wouldn't be surprised if the M35 was 304hp or something, just so that Nissan could have bragging rights.

    Another reason may be that the 2005 G35 Coupe Sport will have about 295 hp. Hence, it probably isn't that hard to squeeze out a few more horses, from basically the same engine. Also, Infiniti may not want a "lower-class" vehicle to have higher hp than a "higher-class" vehicle, even though one is a coupe and the other a sedan.

    In all likelihood I'm wrong, but it's just a thought.
  • pg48477pg48477 Member Posts: 309
    I have not seen any facts that 2005 G35 will get more HP, but if it's the case it will make already loud engine even more louder. I don't think it's an option for midsize luxury vehicle for around $50K to have noisy engine, do you?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The '05 G35 sedan has 277hp, and the G35 coupe gets 295.
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    jrock, I think all of your speculation is solid and right on.

    I'm sure Nissan could get over 300HP out of the VQ. It has the same displacement as the RL's 3.5L SOHC but the VQ is a DOHC so Nissan should be able to get more than 300HP, and they're not that far away with some of their other VQ offerings.

    pg4877 is repeating my basic point. The VQ is on the loud and gruff side regarding NVH, so to up the HP will make it probably even louder and gruffer, and cars in this price range typically have very low NVH.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The VQ's noise hasnt impacted sales of the Z, or G in the slightest. I dont think they are worried.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    That noise sounds darn right good in the G35 Coupe and 350Z. I doubt that Nissan will skimp on the refinement when it comes to the M35, they know (or should know) that it can't be loud and gruff in a upper-middle luxury sedan.

    M
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    I have a lot of respect for what Ghosn's done with Nissan so I don't think he'll screw up the M35 either.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Ghosn is genius. He took a company that maybe 5-6 years ago was written off for dead, and not just survived but came back with enough of a vengence to grab the #2 spot away from Honda. Apparently Renault is happy with him, as he is going to become chairman of the joint Renault\Nissan.
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    Moreover, he is a non-Japanese that took over a Japanese company and made it fluorish.

    There can't be too many people in this world, of any race or culture, that can go into another country without speaking the language and do what Ghosn did.

    It's too bad Ghosn's not in charge of GM.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    Nissan was nearly broke and desperate. They needed a savior and were receptive to all the money and new ideas.

    Japan, Inc. has a long history of working with outside car companies. Mazda has close ties to Ford and has for a long time. Isuzu, Subaru and Suzuki have close ties to GM. Heck, GM buys Honda V6s for the Saturn Vue! Mitsubishi has long-term close ties to Chrysler (which are coming apart). (And don't forget Ford started in Japan before WW II and was a key player until their assets were appropriated by the Japanese government during the war.)
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The reason there is no new SVT Focus is that Ford actually killed off its own Zetec 4s in favor of Mazda engines (big surprise there). Nobody in the world does 4 cylinders like Japan. Isuzu is a mess. They basically have one car, and its a rebadged Chevy Tahoe (as if the world needed yet ANOTHER one of those). GM has not been able to handle its foreign partners nearly as well as Ford has.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I'm seeing adds about Isuzu and they're giving like 7K off everything, but they say they aren't leaving the U.S. market. Yeah right!

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Supposedly they plan to add another model for the '07 year or something like that. I'm rather curious to see how the Saab SUV is received by the press. The Raineer has gotten a very tepid response (Tahoe + "quiet steel" = $10,000 more?), and since the Saab will essentially be another Raineer...
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    There is comparo in MT's Aug issue of the 545i and STS V8. The STS costs 63K, the same as the BMW. That is way too much for a Cadillac. That said, the STS was impressive and didn't get slaughtered by the BMW like the old STS would have.

    M
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,674
    I'm sure that the STS discounts/incentives will be along soon. At least that's what seemed to happen in the Boston area.

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Perhaps, but I still dont understand what all the fuss is over that car. The exterior is one of the most boring designs I've seen in years, its like a big-box CTS without the edgy. Its a big slab sided brick like the 300C, minus the character.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    In all fairness a lot of people feel the same way about that new GS. So different strokes for different folks.

    My problem with the STS (without having actually "seen" it) is the price. There is no way I'd pay that much for a Cadillac sedan.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I guess you have a point. Even though I would never buy the Cadillac myself, I'm happy for the competition. Having yet another qualified player on the field means that the companies I WOULD consider buying from will have to work that much harder to get their products to stand out. There are no more free rides in this industry.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    lexusguy... I'm always confused when people write things like you did:

    "Even though I would never buy the Cadillac myself... the companies I WOULD consider buying from...."

    So if Cadillac built the best car for the lowest price, you'd still pass? And if some other company built a worse car you'd buy it? Just because of what? Brand loyalty? Snob appeal?

    Never understood slavish devotion to a car marque. Do you think the car marque is so slavishly devoted to you?

    I say buy the best car that meets your needs and fits your budget, regardless of who makes it or where it is made!
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "if Cadillac built the best car for the lowest price, you'd still pass"

    Thats a hypothetical question that your saying I'm saying yes to. Cadillac doesnt build the best car, nor is it the lowest price, so it doesnt really apply does it? I'm not blindly devoted to one brand. Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura happen to be my favorite three auto makers, so their cars are the ones I would consider actually buying. Cadillac needs to work on their styling, interiors, and pricing before they would get my serious consideration.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    lexusguy... I can't understand your thought process. You write:

    "Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura happen to be my favorite three auto makers, so their cars are the ones I would consider actually buying."

    Actually, to be accurate, you should have written Toyota (Lexus), Nissan-Renault (Infiniti), and Honda (Acura). They are the manufacturers. Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura are just the marques, subsidiaries of the parent corporations. For example, an ES330 is essentially a Toyota Camry. An Infiniti I35 is essentially a Nissan Maxima. An Acura TSX is essentially a European Honda Accord.

    What does the auto maker have to do with the specific automobiles for sale? Do you like their corporate politics? Profit margins? Environment and social policies? Unionization stances? Logos? Letterhead? Web sites?

    If you love the auto maker but not the cars, would you still buy the cars?

    And we in America/NA have to buy specific cars from franchise dealers. The dealers aren't even owned or controlled by the manufacturers. What if you love the auto maker but hate the auto maker's dealers?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I'm well aware that Infiniti, Acura, and Lexus are the luxury marquees of their respective companies. Perhaps I should've phrased that response differently. What does the automaker have to do with the specific cars? Well for one, they kind of MAKE them. 20 years of embarrasing quality levels, uncompetitive engines and cheap Cadillac interiors are GM's decisions, not the dealers.

    When Volvo was telling the world how great seatbelts are, GM fought tooth and nail to not have to put them in their cars. Safer to be thrown (through the windshield) from the car, said GM. Several more Mercedes and Volvo innovations GM was either slow to adopt, or literally fought in the courts to have them NOT adopted. Lately, when the feds propose an increase for CAFE economy, Toyota and Honda are happy to comply. Who's there to fight it? Why good ole GM, wanting to keep CAFE as low as humanly possible so they can keep from having to modernize. Toyota and Honda I feel are responsible companies, trying to HELP a bad situation, not hurt it. These are part of the reasons why I would NOT buy Cadillac. I generally dont like GM. On top of that, I dont like any of Cadillacs products, so that makes the decision pretty easy.
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    It's Lexusguy's money. He can blow it on whatever he wants.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Lol. Um.. thanks?
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    lexusguy... Keeping in mind that GM owns Saab and Ford owns Volvo... Still not following the logic. We are comparing cars. Not corporations or history. You write:

    "20 years of embarrasing quality levels, uncompetitive engines and cheap Cadillac interiors are GM's decisions, not the dealers. When Volvo was telling the world how great seatbelts are, GM fought tooth and nail to not have to put them in their cars. Safer to be thrown (through the windshield) from the car, said GM. Several more Mercedes and Volvo innovations GM was either slow to adopt, or literally fought in the courts to have them NOT adopted."

    What does any of that have to do with the cars we are comparing today and buying today? GM owns Opel, Holden, and Saab, and has financial ownership interests in Isuzu, Daewoo, etc. Ford owns Volvo, Jaguar, Aston Martin, etc. and has ownership interests in Mazda.

    BMW (who now own Rolls Royce cars) used to be part of the [non-permissible content removed] war machine (the Allies hated BMW so much for their great jet engines that the Allies gave England's Bristol BMW's car designs and engineering) and built Isetta bubblecars in the 1950s. That was then. The past is long over and done. We are talking about buying today's cars. Not cars from the 1950s or 1970s.

    Once again, buy the best car that meets your needs and fits your budget. Don't worry about who builds them or where they are built or what that company used to do 25 or 50 years ago.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    You are entitled to the way you think about things, as am I. I am well aware of who owns who, and that there are essenstially 3 Americans, 3 Germans, and 3 Japanese (isnt that wierd?) who own everyone else. (Certain Italians and Citroen\Peugot not withstanding) At the time I was refering to though, Volvo was an independent company. Fuji heavy industries also had plenty to do with WWII, and we've forgiven them as well. The reason I brought up those things is because I feel that GM only cares about its bottom line, and things like safety take a back seat to that. Just recently GM began removing ABS as standard features on its cars to save themselves a few bucks. The CAFE thing is current events also. I've also noticed that GM issues another recall literally every few days.

    The best car that meets my needs, fits my budget, and is built by a company I actually respect is the LS430, which is why I own one.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    lexusguy... At least we agree that the comparison is between cars ["luxury performance sedans"], not car companies.

    The LS430 is a very nice LUXURY sedan. But the LS430 is NOT a nice luxury PERFORMANCE sedan. Is unfortunate that Toyota/Lexus won't create a decent Sport Pkg for the LS to give it some performance capability. LS400/430 is a magnificent sedate highway cruiser. Eats up miles of smooth, flat roads and coddles the driver and passengers. Almost narcotic-like. A car designed to separate driver and passenger from the road.

    LS400/430 is for those who love to ride, but not for those who love to drive.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I have to disagree there. The '04 LS with the 18" wheels and Euro sport suspension (yes I know its hard to find) is actually rather nimble and fun to drive for its size. Its no 745 in that department, but I think its as good as a non Sport package equiped Benz S or Jag XJ8.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    lexusguy... Does your LS430 have the Euro-suspension? Can't say I've read a review of an LS with this option. Are you aware of any published review with this option? Don't think any of the doctors and other professionals I know who have LSs have ones with this set up.
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    Didn't know the LS had a Eurosport suspension. Lexus and sport kind of don't go together in my mind.

    But I'm glad Lexus is around. Although I have no interest in anything they make, I think Lexus has scared the snot out of MB, BMW and other luxury brands and the competition will force all of them to make better cars at more affordable prices.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Mine's not an '04, this is a package that Lexus began offering just this year. Mine just has the air suspension. I'm not sure that there are any reviews of the Euro-suspension, C&D mentioned it in their comparison test, but their car was not equiped as such.
  • w210w210 Member Posts: 188
    I completely agree with riez' reasoning.

    It's far more meaningful to compare models by models instead of brand vs. brand.

    Yes I like Mercedes in general, but would I pick up a ML, probably not unless it is heavily discounted.

    While I appreciate BMWs' handling, would I get one? Not necessarily due to the latest models' poor ergonomics and design I cannot get used to. The X5 is nice, but not the 745i in my opinion.

    Lexus? Sure, not a bad choice if I were mainly only looking for a quiet ride and a super stereo. However, some Lexus models are pretty lame, look at the over priced LX and GX.

    Acura? They have a Civic dressed up model here which I think is the biggest scam.

    Cadillac? While I'm not a big fan or their SUVs, the convertible seems quite interesting. In fact, I may get it over the SC430.

    To judge a car objectively, one must see beyond the brand.

    Of course, some prefer to purchase based on blind loyalty, snob appeal or even nationalism!
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I sat in an XLR at the NYAS, I wasnt impressed. Everything felt cheap, the doors closed with a tinny, cheap-o sound instead of that bank vault "thunk" Im used to on my Lexus. Nothing felt like it was befitting a $75K+ convertible, of course nothing in the Corvette feels like like it should cost $10, let alone $50K.
  • w210w210 Member Posts: 188
    Talking about cheap interior, have you checked out the new 5 series?

    However, I'm not particularly impressed with certain Lexus interiors either.

    Somehow Lexus likes to put lots of wood everywhere (which I don't have a problem with); however, the wood is too 'red' and when clashed with the dark grey plastic buttons and the modern silver metallic radio trim pieces, the end result is a rather gaudy look.

    I would be far happier if they pick a different shade of wood. Yes, the Lexus may seem more expensive when compared to the new 5, but both are rather unattractive if you ask me.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    If your refering to the SC430, the wood is available in a few colors if you dont like the red.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    Problem with this whole board is whether you focus on performance or luxury. It is hard to combine both, successfully. I much prefer performance. The whole point of driving is to enjoy driving. If I wanted to enjoy a ride, guess I'd pay someone to drive me or buy a Camry.

    BMW is most successful combining performance and luxury, with MB & Audi a distant 2nd (tied). Other than the IS300 manual and SportCross, Lexus really doesn't have much in way of performance. The GS has mostly been a poseur. Infiniti at least has the G35 sedan and coupe with 6-speed manuals, but the M45 and Q45 have (rightly) been flops.

    Acura isn't even a player, since they are FWD and RWD is the minimum to play competitively in this league.

    Sad thing is that by the time you cross the $40,000 threshold, the emphasis is on luxury. You can't get a manual transmission in the 7 Series any more. You can't get a manual transmission in any performance-oriented MB over $50K, not even the AMGs sold in USA.

    The last successful combination of luxury and performance may be the 545i 6-speed manual. (The old M5 and 540i6 are classics). Followed by the Cadillac CTS-V with 6-speed manual.

    I will readily admit my biases. A true performance car needs manual transmission with clutch pedal (no ATs or SMGs), IRS, RWD, and near 50/50 balance. Farther you get from these criteria, less likely you have a performance car. For example, AWD adds weight, complexity, eats up space, reduces economy, adds price, etc.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    So a Ferrari with an F1 SMG is not a "true performance car" in your opinion? 911 Turbos, Diablo VTs and Skyline GT-Rs arent either because they are AWD?
  • shotgunshotgun Member Posts: 184
    "Right on" reply to Riez's contention as to what constitutes a "true performance" vehicle Lexusguy...to omit the vehicles you've alluded to from the aforementioned category is, to say the least, criminal...
  • bmwmrcbmwmrc Member Posts: 66
    You have to realize that riez thinks the "only" way to go is manual and RWD. I think he's dead wrong and agree with what you state in your previous post. But at least riez admits his biases.

    For some of us, (I own a 2003 5 series) automatics or I have manu-matic serve me just fine, thank you very much. I drove manuals for more than 25 years. It's fine if you live in Nebraska, where one has small towns and many open roads and highways. But try dealing with stop and go bumper to bumper traffic on a daily basis day-in and out in Southern California. I guarantee anyone, that your knees will NOT appreciate it.

    IMO, performance levels are in the eye of the beholder. The bottom line is that all of the cars we're discussing here are terrific and are a matter of personal taste. So, go out their and drive, cruise or corner. It's all good.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    If you like to drive, get a clutch pedal manual.

    If you like to be driven, buy an AT or SMG.

    A Ferrari without the lovely gated shifter and clutch pedal is like the Statue of Liberty without arms or Mona Lisa without a head. Yes, something beautiful, special, and interesting, but not quite up to its true potential.

    The market agrees with me. Just compare used car prices for automatic and manual transmission-equipped Ferrari built in the past 20 years. You'll take a pounding because no one wants to pay top dollar for an AT Ferrari.

    At least BMW's M held on for a long time. Too bad they, too, are going route of SMG. Will be interesting to see what collectors will pay for both in 20 years.

    Like I said, I admit my biases. RWD, IRS, manual transmission, near 50/50 weight balance, and naturally-aspirated engines (I6 or V8)
  • sharonfsharonf Member Posts: 120
    Totally agree with you on this one!! My mother is shopping for a new car and has ruled out the Lexus ES330...and a great part of ruling it out was based on the red wood in the interior....not a good move!
    She's now considering a 2003 GS300 which has a better color trim....and in our opinion...a more attractive body style.
    The other option is a 2005 Mercedes c230 Kompressor. Two totally different types of car....but both have things she likes about them.
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