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Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • ideleidele Posts: 200
    That's what I want, a money green colored car. None of those silver coin colored cars.
  • erickplerickpl Posts: 2,735
    on BMW's.

    We have the Oxford Green with natural brown leather on our 325xi.

    -Paul
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    In my opinion, the GS's failures are entirely the fault of the GS. The fact that it ultimately failed in its mission to be a serious BMW 5 fighter is not the fault of the ES.

    Here's the problem with the RWD\AWD, V6 powered "baby LS" you are proposing - no Toyotas are built that way. Without a Toyota platform to utilize, you can factor in a $10K price increase, in otherwords, GS300 money. The ES isnt supposed to compete with the A6, E, and 5. Its supposed to come in around $35K, and dominate its competition, cars like the Lucerne, and Lincoln "MKZ". You'll notice that Acura shied away from trying to compete directly with ES, and Infiniti gave up entirely. There's no reason to mess with a product that works. What needs work, are the GS300 and 430.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Simple. GS300, GS300 AWD, GS430, GS450h. The bigger engines shouldnt change the number of models.
  • garyh1garyh1 Posts: 386
    Here's the problem with the RWD\AWD, V6 powered "baby LS" you are proposing - no Toyotas are built that way.

    Now it's coming back to me. This came up about a month ago in the HELM forum, and you were the one who mentioned the Japanese Toyota called the Crown Majesta and posted some interesting pics of it. You even said it came in 6 and 8 cyl models, and at least the 8 had AWD. For those LPSers who are interested in that car, start here and read through the next 8 messages.

    Crown Majesta discussion

    Anyway, I agree with you that the GS needs work.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I just don't think the typical Lexus buyer is looking for sport when shopping for a car, especially one the size of the GS, mid-size. A loaded GS430 has always been to close to a base LS430 imo. When a buyer walks in a sees the tight/cramped GS and then drives it finds that it really isn't that sporty like say a M45 or 550i, I can see them saying "may as well get the LS430". Now this may change once the LS460 goes on sale especially if the move the base price over 60K. This is why I think the GS300 has always outsold the GS430 by like 2 or 3 to one over the years. I think if they price the LS460 where a flagship should be priced (over 60K) the GS and particularly the upcoming GS460 will have some breathing room. Then they need to make it sportier for buyers to deal with the cramped demisions and smallish trunk. IMO.

    The middle level segment already has a luxury leader in the E-Class and a sporty leader in the form of the 5-Series with the A6 and M chasing them respectively. The RL,GS and S-Type are the odd ones out to me.

    M
  • . . .perhaps if one is seeking a bit more sport, a price that while hardly low probably represents "bang for the buck," and, like an increasing number of folks, one wants the added performance and confidence of AWD, dare I suggest a nice long test drive of an A6 4.2 V8 S-Line?

    In S-Line clad, at least at one of our two Audi franchises here in River City, it is pretty easy to locate this car with the 3.2 FSI V6, a bit more rare -- but not impossible -- to find with the throaty (at full cry) 4.2 V8.

    Moreover, if you are, indeed, looking for a bit larger car (larger than the GS, i.e.) the A6 has both a real back seat and a real trunk.

    I test drove the A6 4.2 with sport package (it was a 2005, pre S-Line i.e.) and, I assume, the suspension and the sportiness. of the S-Line are probably for all intents and purposes identical. Hard to imagine a car this big being "nimble," but it was.

    Even if you just can't see yourself in a German car, let alone an Audi, I can promise you that a test drive of a 2006 A6 4.2 S-Line will be very entertaining and fun.

    Just a thought. :shades:
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Posts: 1,938
    ... They intend to bring out a less loaded, de-contented version of the RL in the fall that may list for $7,000-$10,000 less. ...

    I think they should keep the current standard equipment list and just drop the price to just a few grand ($3K - $5K?) more than a maxed-out TL.
  • I like the Cambridge Green. However, there are no Audi dealers within 200 miles. I wish the RL or M had that choice. I also like the Carbon Grey Pearl that Acura offers on the RL.

    Len
  • I think they should keep the current standard equipment list and just drop the price to just a few grand ($3K - $5K?) more than a maxed-out TL.

    I agree. The RL with the Tech package starts at $53K while an M with Journey and Tech is only $49K.

    However, for my zip Edmunds shows TMV of $47K so people around me are buying them. Last weekend my closest Acura dealer only had two on the lot. The salesman said they are moving quickly.

    Len
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Mark - Color is as subjective as it gets, but I will say that, IMO, some cars look so much better in certain colors than others.

    Statistics, however, show SILVER continues to be the number one national seller, by far. Probably because it looks decent enough, it's easy on the dirt, and it's not a solar panel.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Gosh, isn't it just too easy for Toyota to just reach into the Toyota model line-up, change the trim, and call it a Lexus?

    Latest reports show Toyota really stretching. The new RAV4 may become the next Toyota/Lexus by as early as '08.

    The distinction between Toyota and Lexus is fuzzy enough. But this?

    Very different than Acura's recent announcement that there will no longer be model sharing. All new Acuras of the future will be unique and specifically "Acura".

    Different approaches here. Also, the Lexus brand is receiving a cool reception in Japan.

    IMO, the distinction between Toyota and Lexus may be getting a little compromised, world-wide.

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Well, for the moment at least, nearly every Acura product owes its existence to a Honda product, the Civic, Accord, or the Accord Euro. Do they even have a SINGLE product that is in no way based on anything Honda?
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Well... there arent any US market Toyotas built that way anyway. Is the market really clamoring for a RWD ES? Considering the way the car drives and its target audience, I dont think ES drivers would notice any improvement over FWD.
  • I participated in that Car and Driver "editor for a day" event this past summer.

    Despite the fact that it, in my opinion, was rigged in some way to make Cadillac win, we did test a Cadillac STS and CTS (and yes I know we don't have these under our LPS rubric, but the STS at least IS, after all, an LPS car) and a BMW 5 and a Lexus ES (the only FWD of the four.)

    Over the exact same course the ES behaved as you might imagine I would behave should I try a ballet move standing on my toes -- my toes would curl under me, I would fall due to lack of support from my toes. The Little Lexus was so close to being useless it was pitiful.

    Was this because of FWD? Beats me.

    Was this because it was a Lexus and just wasn't engineered to "carve" through the course, any course?

    Beats me.

    The point here is if someone drives an ES and then drives almost anything else, they will notice a difference -- the handling is, shaky.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    for the moment at least, nearly every Acura product owes its existence to a Honda product, the Civic, Accord, or the Accord Euro

    I think Acura has good foresight to change this approach. As I understand Acura's recent press release, Acura has stated that the RDX will be the first "genuine" Acura, and then every Acura thereafter will also be genuine Acura.

    This is different from what so far appears to be Toyota's increasing blurring of the lines between Toyota and Lexus. Time will tell where they go with this. I generally respect Toyota's brilliant marketing, but I have to say that I just don't like the all-to-common practice of "cross-dressing" models. (no pun intended, ha, ha!)
    Like some of the Ford/Lincoln/Mercury models or Chevy/Pontiac/GMC models.

    :)

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I dont think it has anything to do FWD, considering pretty much all of the "tuner" class is made up of FWD compacts with excellent handling. FWD has inherent problems, you certainly wouldnt want to make a FWD super car, but there's nothing about FWD that automatically means terrible handling.

    The ES is simply a boring car, with a pillow soft suspension. Its competition is made up of Buicks and Lincolns. The Catera would be considered ES competition, not the CTS. Lexus has the IS350 for that.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    ...but the RDX is just a gussied up CR-V, no different than what Lexus is planning. Its being built on Honda's new global light truck platform just like the next CR-V. Its not an "Acura only" architecture.

    The next RSX is also supposed to continue to be based on the Civic. Considering Acura sells at price points below Infiniti and Lexus, I just dont see how they can use "exclusive" platforms and be profitable.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    think Acura has good foresight to change this approach. As I understand Acura's recent press release, Acura has stated that the RDX will be the first "genuine" Acura, and then every Acura thereafter will also be genuine Acura.

    Tagman,

    I find this new Acura approach praiseworthy. But are you sure Acura was not referring to the future generation of the TL and RL?

    And what exactly do they mean by "genuine Acura"? Are they referring to non-shared platforms? Or do they mean genuine Acuras in terms of offering new technologies and features that are not offered in Hondas.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I find this new Acura approach praiseworthy. But are you sure Acuara was not referring to the future generation of the TL and RL?

    dewey - When I get the chance, I'll retrieve the press statement and read it word by word to make sure I haven't misunderstood it. Then I'll let you know. Unless you find it and read it before I can get to it. I believe the timing of it was towards the end of '05. (?) But, I'll get back to you on it and see if it was in reference to the TL and RL. I'm pretty sure it was in reference to the RDX as well as all future new models.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Are they referring to non-shared platforms? Or do they mean genuine Acuras in terms of offering new technologies and features that are not offered in Hondas

    What I have found so far, which isn't enough yet, is the announcement of the new Torrance, California, Acura Design Studio that will be for the purpose of exclusive Acura designs and to further the separation of the Acura and Honda brands.

    Also, the upcoming RDX does in fact utilize the new global light truck platform, as lexusguy pointed out.

    I think I need to do some more digging to determine just what will be unique to Acura, but it sounds like the intentions of Honda Corporate are to separate the two lines as much as possible through the use of independent and dedicated designs. This would more likely result in an increase in exclusive Acura parts (technology and features), but not necessarily exclusive platforms.

    The degree to which the upcoming Acura and Honda models have similarities will be revealed, but there is an internal corporate effort underway to further distinguish and separate the two brands from one another.

    I cannot precisely determine the extent to which this is different than Toyota's approach with Lexus, but it seems, at least on the surface, that Toyota is blurring the lines as time passes, as opposed to Honda's more deliberate attempt to separate Acura.

    Do they have similar stategies . . . or different strategies?

    :confuse:

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    If you haven't heard about this yet, I've got a treat for some of you.

    Sweet?

    link title

    :D

    TagMan
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    I was hoping that Acura will have an exclusive platform. I think it is inexcusable that Acura does not yet have a RWD platform.

    Infiniti, Lexus and Audi have platforms that are differnet from what is available fromt their parent companies. Why not Acura?
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Sweet indeed.

    I asked my sales rep about the upcoming biturbo and was told that they will only be available in the forms of a 3 series coupe/convertible :(

    I want a sedan version since I have a family to transport. Expect to see the biturbos this summer!
  • Is certainly not a performance sedan but it is an entry level luxury sedan. It is not meant to compete with true performance sedans. It is what it is and Lexus certainly has no reason to apologize for one of the most successful autos ever made.

    Even though it is not a performance sedan, it can drive rings around a BMW or Mercedes...in the snow and ice!! You are much more likely to run into a little snow and ice on your daily rounds than a slalom course.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Even though it (Lexus ES) is not a performance sedan, it can drive rings around a BMW . . .

    OK, grandaddy, let me get this straight . . . are you truly saying that the Lexus ES can drive rings around a BMW?

    Final answer?

    TagMan
  • I think I not only understand but generally agree. FWD cars can, overall, go most of the time, second only to AWD in compromised traction situations.

    The rigged test I took had us push a sport package equipped STS against a standard 530i 225HP and a sport equipped CTS against a standard ES -- the Cadillacs were more capable than the competition.

    It was only when we were ushered out of the test facility through an air conditioned tent that was literally a Cadillac showroom did I realize it wasn't a fair fight.

    I must admit, I did come away with a new appreciation for the Cadillacs even though they were the high sport models compared with the high comfort model competition.

    The Lexus was a super nice Camry. And, I would say, at that time, better than a Buick and better than an Avalon.

    But the new Lucerne may offer a viable alternative to the ES (at the price, at the price).

    The LPS crowd, seems to me to be following a path and that path is being emulated by the entry level LPS cars, and that is "go for, emphasize, the luxury, not the performance" -- the market has spoken. :surprise:
  • Final answer would be a YES. You obviously have very little experience driving in snow and ice.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    "Final answer would be a YES. You obviously have very little experience driving in snow and ice."

    Ummm, I think I feel a retort coming on...

    Here it comes: Hey Grandaddy, you obviously have very little experience driving a late model BMW in the snow and ice.

    I've been driving in the snow and ice for over thirty years and in that time I've pretty much driven every kind of driven wheel setup on the road. While I'll give AWD the nod in acceleration, call it a wash in handling and give the nod to RWD for braking, I won't even bother including FWD in any of those performance metrics. Why? Because in the snow and ice, it's the worst of the three across the board. For my money I'll take a snow tire shod RWD car over any of the competition. Mark of course will take an AWD car for his winter mount, both are good choices, the ES is not.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • Shipo, I think that I can prove (to your satisfaction) that on an all around performance basis the ES is superior to the BMW, no matter how equipped. If I am wrong will you buy me a beer sometime?
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