Luxury Performance Sedans

merc1

"It doesn't mean that the cars they build will out accelerate, out-brake, or out-skid pad cars from Shelby, Lotus, Ferrari or fuel dragsters. But it does mean that their cars will be closer to their design intentions than anyone else's. They get it right more often and the cars stay right longer than any other brand in the history of the automobile business.

Pure bs, the fact is that Toyota has had some flops regardless of them being "right" when it comes to how they were produced. In the past when Lexus/Toyota set out to make a sports sedan they failed miserably. The previous GS, IS and several Toyotas have never gotten it "right" from any other view point other than reliability otherwise people would have bought them.

To sit here and even suggest that other brands don't get their cars close "to their design intentions" is a complete crock. Porsche, Ferrari, BMW, Mercedes, Honda, Nissan and Mazda all have at the very least one car in their lineup that hit their targets right on the nose. The only difference is they aren't the reliability champs that Toyota are and if that were the only criteria everyone across the world would drive Toyotas and clearly they don't. Total BS.

M

tiag_m5

I'm not sure which auto mags you've been reading, but here on planet earth the new 5 has been universally lauded for its performance. The only reason why it hasn't attained as much clout as the previous 5 is because of the controversial design, and of course everyone's favorite thing to hate, I-Drive.

Styling wise, the new 5 is a toss up; you either hate it or you love it. In my opinion, this is the only area that BMW screwed up. Most people admired the classic, traditional styling of the previous 5... Some found it classy, some found it sporty, and some found it a bit bland. Regardless of whatever people thought about the E39, it surely didn't piss on styles doorstep like the E60. BMW made a big faux pas with both the 5 and the 7 in this regard. Luckily, they toned down this trend with the new 3 and made it more traditional looking.

Anyway, back on topic. The E60 5 series is a worthy successor to the E39 5 series in most areas, foremost among those being performance. Styling is subjective and I-Drive is overly scrutinized. In the end, I think BMW not only made a podium finish, but once again swept the class. It might not be number one in every category like its predecessor, but to say it “loses BAD” is a bit of an exaggeration.

cybersol

is there a link for that automobile magazine article or do i have to pick up the paperback?

I am butting in only because I looked for the link and BW doesn't put their CURRENT Magazine on THE SITE.

This link worked for me: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_11/b3924006.htm

lexusguy

Did you think I just made that up or something? Look it up. In what I believe was the new 530i's first major comparison test, it came in 6th place. 6TH. Look it up. In the recent Motortrend test, BMW lost again, coming in midpack. Motortrend also cleary felt that the STS V8 was the better car when they put one against a 545i. I have yet to see the new 5 win anything. The old car, on the other hand, won so many tests its impossible to even count them all.

tiag_m5

Those things will add up close to 100 pounds. It's not as simple as adding a component. The amount of wiring that goes into adding these electronic gizmos is a LOT. In any case, 50 pounds, 100 pounds, doesn't matter.

Actually, BMW already pre-wires its cars for things like satellite radio and the CD changer. Of the items on your list, the navigation computer might come to a grand total of 5 pounds. Xenon headlights probably don't weigh any more than halogen lights. Premium sound requires replacing the existing amp and head unit for a net gain of zero pounds plus any insignificant weight increase of higher quality speakers. Heating coils in the seats might add 5 pounds and the CD changer might add 5 more pounds. Overall we're talking about maybe 20 lbs of additional weight. In any case, the weight increase from those options would be insignificant at most.

And I've already said that the weight balance of the RL is terrible.

Don't forget the Kia brakes, underwhelming acceleration and mediocre handling.

The 2006 530i may be able to match it with the manual, but not with the auto.

I beg to differ.

Of course, the 5 has several things that the M lacks. I just prefer the M's exclusive features to the 5's.

Bluetooth is hardly an exclusive feature. What about the navigation system makes the M so special anyway? As far as I'm concerned, both offer the same level functionality.

tiag_m5

Did you think I just made that up or something? Look it up. In what I believe was the new 530i's first major comparison test, it came in 6th place. 6TH. Look it up.

I would except you failed to mention which test and what publication.

In the recent Motortrend test, BMW lost again, coming in midpack.

It's been awhile since I read that review, but if I recall correctly, the BMW was rated as the best performer of the group. It only ranked midpack because of its controversial styling, which I already addressed. I also seem to recall that the editors didn't care for the active steering system, which is optional.

Motortrend also cleary felt that the STS V8 was the better car when they put one against a 545i.

"Clearly" is hardly appropriate. The 545i bested the STS from 0-60, 0-100, and in 1/4 mile. To add insult to injury the 545i spanked the STS in the slalom, skid pad, and figure eight test. In fact, MT never declared a winner but simply highlighted the different aspects of both cars: “It's difficult to call a clear winner here, because even though these two compete on size, price, features, and performance, they end up demonstrating differing approaches to the luxury/sport-sedan formula.” Given the test results and editorial comments it seems that they in fact preferred the BMW. Also keep in mind that this 5 was equipped with the optional active steering system, which no doubt received criticism... Fortunately there is a quick fix for that: Don't order it.

merc1

Well the 545i did just beat the STS V8 in an Autoweek comparo this week.

M

lexusguy

Road & Track. Right here: http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=31&article_id=1337&page_number=4

For what its worth, it did manage to beat out a Volvo S80 ::applause::

From Motortrend: "The STS, on the other hand, goes down easier. It comes close to the harder-edged 545i in most areas of performance, while managing superior ride quality, stopping distances, and ease of use."

Skidpad results and 1\4 mile times dont win comparison tests. The M45 Sport OBLITERATED the RL and GS430 in Edmunds Japan $50K test, yet it came in 3rd place. Maybe if it was Camaro vs. Mustang that might matter more, but a luxury\sport sedan needs to deliver a lot more than that, and the BMW doesnt measure up to the class leaders.

jlbl

This is not a reply but a following commentary.

Bosch, which makes a lot of car electronics, bought the Patent to FIAT some years ago (what a good deal for Bosch!). None of them are Japanese. Nothing against Japanese makers, but it must be given to Caesar which belongs to Caesar. I would buy a Sony TV set rather than a Grundig (which is not in the market nowadays, by the way), though I would give to Phillips, Loewe or Bang-Olufsen the same credit than I give to Sony.

On the other hand, any of these brands "belongs" to a country, or are designed and made by only nationals of a given country. Here, there and everywhere, is the whole process that matter.

Regards,

José

markcincinnati

I think the magazine article that was being asked about was the April 2005 Automobile magazine, which is NOT on line. The article is a discussion about the German cars that have "lost their luster" -- apparently only Porsche has NOT lost its luster. Although in fairness the article suggests that the German automakers are working to improve quality.

The BW article -- March 14, 2005, IS on line. The overall article about Audi and quality etc and the supplimental article that I was interviewed for are both on-line.

Automobile Magazine does not, at least so far, put the current issue on line.

rich545

Oh now that's just a ridiculous statement. Did you even READ the articles you mentioned? The previous 5 doesn't beat the current 5 in anyway except if you happen to prefer how it looks. The fact is that the new 5 handles better and is faster than the previous model. Comparing the 545 I have to the 540 they are about even in terms of 0-60 acceration, but after that the new 5 is significantly faster. But hey, I own one and drive it everyday so why would I know more about it than someone that read about it (and didn't appparently pay attention to what he read) in a magazine.

ksccts

Don't worry about rich545. He is fairly militant about the new style 5 series. I think he must have been on the design team!

rich545

Two things I'd like to comment on here. One, what the 5 looks like. Again, in real-world experience with the car it's almost ridiculous how many people DO think it's a great looking car. I agree that in pictures it doesn't look it's best, but in person it is much better looking. Another thing I find interesting is that the people I know that seem to love it the most are also the one's that seem to be on the cutting edge of style in terms of how they dress and such. Much more so than I am at least. The people I know that seem to hate it the most are the old school conservative types (not talking about paolitical affiliation here) that don't readily accept any kind of change. Let me make this clear so no one confuses what I am saying here. I'm NOT saying either side is correct because whether or not they like how the car looks is completely subjective. I'm just saying that within the group of people I know, that's how it seems to work out.

Anyway, I do agree with what tiag_m5 said about iDrive. I use it everyday, and it is simple to use and very funtional. Wait, I should say I don't use it much everyday because you really don't have to use it much if you choose not to. One thing to remember here is that most car reviewers are pretty conservative (again I'm not talking about political affilation here) when it comes to car designs. Just like any other type of critic (movies, food) the only one that really matters to me is me. If they can't figure out iDrive then that says a lot more about them than it does about the system itself. Maybe BWM should come out with a book called "An Idiot's Guide to iDrive". Seriously though, it's not everyone'e cup of tea and that's fine. But I find it to be easy to use and not distracting at all. Again real-world experience with the system for 9600 miles vs. an afternoon test drive by someone that probably got into the car hating the system BEFORE they even touched it.

rich545

That article is based on so much that is completely subjective it's laughable. The funny thing is, I seem to remember reading a lot of whining here about a comparison test Edmunds did on several Japanese cars. So when it comes to tests like this people tend to like the one's that confirm how they already feel, and discredit the one's that don't. Fact is, if you make your car buying decisions based on comparision tests that's your choice. I go and do my own comparison test in person. As far is what is objective though about this review, a lot of that will change when the 530 gets it's new engine. I'm curious though, have you ever driven the new 5?

richcream

tiag,
Read my post. I'm not saying that the M is the epitome of beauty or that the 5 is ugly. I like both.

As far as idrive, your guess would be wrong. I have tested the 530 a couple times and I pretty much got the hang of the system. That said, it really seems to be more trouble than it's worth, especially compared to the more simplified version Audi is producing. That's all.

The interior of the 5 series, IMO, is lacking. IMO. You might like it, but again, IMO, compared to the E, M, GS, and A6, it is sorely lacking in both beauty (IMO) and function in terms of simple things like center compartment space. For 50k+, I think you should be getting a lot more on the inside. Handles great, looks great (IMO), but the interior, for the price, just doesn't do it (for me anyway.)

jjacura

Actually Cybersol was right. He found the link to the BW article with you in it, whereas I could not. Oh well 5 bux for the magazine was worth it. I like hard copies (Being an old newspaper ad man). Which reminds me... my wife still isn't comfortable with me storing digital photo albums on a website yet. Even though we have them stored on discs. There is nothing like a hard copy! We run to Walmart and have slicks pulled from these discs all the time so she can mail them off to all. My on-line slide shows aren't good enough! :-)

jrock65

20 pounds, 50 pounds, 100 pounds for additional equipment. Doesn't really matter. The difference between an RL and a comparably equipped 530 is nowhere near 600 pounds as you claimed

Regarding, idrive, it's not a matter of whether one can learn how to use it. Almost anyone can. The issue is that when you're driving, you want the system to be as simple and intuitive as possible. Other cars in this class simply provide a more user friendly interface than the idrive.

The new 5 is a superior vehicle to the old 5 in many ways. It is more a matter of other cars in this class catching up and surpassing the new 5 in many respects. Sporty handling is the only area that the 5 can truly hang its hat on.

warthog

tiag_m5 wrote: "I'm not sure I would feel very safe behind the wheel of the M. It doesn't even offer rear side airbags of all things... "

Neither does the BMW 5.

lexusguy

Yes I did. Believe it or not I liked the 540i quite a bit, and even though I dont like the exterior OR interior design of the new car, I gave a 545i sport a chance anyway. Didnt like it at all. The fact that the sport package puts on AS, and then the M division removes it, shows how backwards BMWs priorities are right now. The 540i was about driving, and the 545i seems to be about how many computer systems can we shove in a car?

Ultimately my sedan is required to get me to work EVERYDAY, without fail. I can afford for my XK to not work, but not my sedan, thus I wouldnt be buying a 5 any time soon anyway. Much like the '97 5 series, early adopters are being punished. Thats why I stick with Japan.

hpowders

Yes. Unfortunately, this is the trend with many luxury cars.
Make us dizzy with computer chips, too much technology and owner's manuals as thick as encyclopedia volumes-translated of course into quaint English to further confuse us.

rich545

If backward priorities lead to better sales as they clearly are with BMW (if you'd like me to post the link to those figures I will) then I'd have to wonder what you think a car company's priorities should be. What does the fact that Lexus doesn't even have an M division equivalent say about their priorities? We're being punished? Really? Hmmm, my car hasn't been to the shop once yet for problems. So you drove the 545 and you're honestly telling me that you think that the comperable Lexus, the 2005 GS430, measures up to it? Granted, the new 2006 GS sounds like it will be closer, but then the 545 will become the 550 soon as well. Face it, what you really don't like is iDrive. I find that interesting because my mother-in-law has the LS430 and you'd be really hard pressed to squeeze more computer systems into it. The 540 was about driving huh? Well, the 545 beats it in nearly every "driving" category.

lexusguy

Wow, your brand new car hasnt been to the shop for repairs yet? Gollie gee, that must be amazing! When your 5 series reaches year 6, let me know if it still has a perfect record. BOTH of my LS's have them. Where did I ever say that a '05 GS is the equal of the 5 series? I dont remember that, so if you could point me to it. The '06 Infiniti M45 comes to within 98% of the BMW's sporting capabilities, is a lot more user friendly, a lot more attractive, a lot more reliabile, and a lot cheaper. Thats why its going to win against the new Bimmer every time.

lovemyclk

Your points are dead-on correct. Superb engineering capabilities married to an arrogant production philosophy yields ML's. May MB get the next-gen ML right, or they will slide further down the slippery slope (I've owned 2 and still have a 2002 ML in addition to my 2003 530 SP).

Porsche (I believe?) has partnered with Toyota to implement TPS processes, which have underscored their quality and profitability achievements. I don't question the engineering excellence of BMW, MB, Audi, etc. - just the lack of attention to the "small stuff" that Toyota (and Japan, Inc. in general) has figured out. TPS and TMS are culturally adopted so that any workforce can succeed, whether in the US, Japan or elsewhere.

I still find BMW to be the most desireable car to have in MY garage, but certainly see why people consider Infiniti and Lexus. Would guess the next 18-24 months will be telling for the German automotive sector.

rich545

Way to backtrack! Did you or did you not say this: "Much like the '97 5 series, early adopters are being punished. Thats why I stick with Japan." So what were you refering to if not that you felt the 545 is unreliable? If that's not what you were saying then how are we "early adopters" being punished exactly? Sorry, I just assumed that you would think the the 05 GS ranked right up there since Lexus is so superior in so many other ways. My bust. The '06 M45? What about the '05? I just looked at performance figures for both and it loses in just about every category. You can't compare the '06 M45 to the 05 545 fairly anyway. What about the '06 545. I'm not exactly sure when the 550 is coming out but I believe it is during the '06 year. It's funny, on the one hand you say that just because my new car has been reliable it doesn't prove anything, but then you go on to mention the relaibiliy of the '06 M45 which just came out. It also won't win against the new 5 every time because there are plently of people like myself that would never buy and Infinity over a BMW. I guess it's a useless argument. You dislike BMW's and I dislike Infinity and Lexus. Not much is going to change how either of us feel in all likelihood.

richcream

"I guess it's a useless argument. You dislike BMW's and I dislike Infinity and Lexus. Not much is going to change how either of us feel in all likelihood."

amen.

warthog

Have we decided whose daddy can beat up everyone else's (anyone else's) daddy yet? This discussion is 90% about blind brand loyalty and not much else.

hpowders

The ardent BMW loyalist reviewer of Canadian Automotive Network, Trevor Hofmann, who never found a BMW he didn't love, sure did love the 2006 GS 430. Yup. Check it out! He says the GS 430 is the equal to the 5 series and he added, the GS is also much better looking too!

lexusguy

Its basically what I've been saying for quite awhile. Back in the previous generation of cars, where it was just E, 5, A6, and GS, the 5 series dominated. The A6 wasnt much of a contender, and the GS wasnt one at all. The BMW might not have been the best value, or had the best stereo, or have been the simplest to use. But it didnt matter. It was so far ahead of the other cars in terms of driving dynamics that it won every contest. This time Audi and Japan have caught up. The 5 still isnt a good value, still doesnt have a great stereo, still isnt intuitive to use. The difference this time is that the competition has caught up so much in terms of performance that the Bimmer's flaws stick out a lot more than they used to, which lead to midpack finishes.

hpowders

Uh excuse me, I can't talk right now, zooming along in my BMW 545; I have to lean way over to the right, streeeetch, yes there it is. Now open the glove compartment carefully now, watch the road....take out the CD..... replace it with another CD.....oops! that was close! Almost hit that LS 330 in the other lane. Maybe one day some company will invent a lane-wandering warning system so when I am changing a CD in the conveniently located glove compartment, I won't risk KILLING MYSELF!

sergeym

Lane departure warning feature is a part of M45 tech package.

lexusguy

Heh. Just a FYI, Infiniti is working on a system that not only notifies you that you are leaving your lane, but attempts to actually correct the problem.

hpowders

I am well aware of the M's departure warning system! My previous post was supposed to be a parody!
It was supposed to imply that BMW was a little slow not having this technology.
Did you really think I was typing that stuff as I was driving?
Come on folks, lighten up!

lexusguy

Another cool system is one that Volvo is working on where Cameras monitor your head and eye movements and if it thinks you are falling asleep at the wheel, attempts to wake you up. That could definitely save some lives.

hpowders

Is that for real?

lexusguy

Totally. I saw a thing about it on TV. The cameras are mounted in the dash, and if your eyes start leaving the road for long periods of time or your head starts to droop, it triggers an alarm. No idea when its going to start showing up in production Volvos though.

hpowders

What will they think of next?

jrock65

The following is from a Lexus dealer rep who's been reliable in the past.

In October 2005:
'06 IS250 and IS350. The IS250 will have a 6 speed manual tranny OR a automatic V6 engine. The IS250 will have 220 horsepower. The IS350 is a V6 automatic ONLY, but will have guarranteed minimum of 325 horsies. The IS350 will have an available "Sport Package" with "18 wheels. Pricing will remain competitive and the IS will start around $32k-$33k, same as what we have now, but a top of the line will be about $45k.

In March 2006:
'07 ES350 will have a 3.5 liter engine with a completely new body style. The only thing they are keeping the same on the ES will be the headlight design.

In April 2006:
'07 RX350 will have the same updated engine as the ES

In May 2006:
GS450Hybrid will have a V6 hybrid engine, but be faster than the GS430.

In September 2006:
LS460Hybrid with 2 body styles, one 6 inches longer, will be added to the regular LS. Both will have 4.6 V8 engines.

In September 2006:
'07GS350 will have the updated engine, but same body style.

In September 2006:
'07 GS460 will have an updated engine.

In 2-3 more years the IS convertible with retractable hard top is coming for cetain. And other car ideas that are being tossed around also are the "Super LS" that will cost more than $100k and the "SuperCoupe" that will go 200 MPH.

------------------

So it seems that Toyota is going to use the 3.5 GR V6 in much the same fashion that Nissan uses the 3.5 VQ V6, meaning that a lot Toyotas/Lexuses will have it. No doubt the next Camry, Solara, Sienna, and Highlander will carry the 3.5 GR as well.

------------------

The GS300 is for one year only. The GS350 is coming next year.

merc1

I'm confused here. I thought you didn't want more electronics in cars? I personally think the lane departure system is enough, but for the car to actually try to correct this it just too much, imo.

M

tiag_m5

Neither does the BMW 5.

Wrong. Check out the "Options and Packages" section on the BMW website. Notice how the 5 not only offers rear side airbags, but rear seatbelt tensioners as well.

tiag_m5

I am well aware of the M's departure warning system! My previous post was supposed to be a parody!
It was supposed to imply that BMW was a little slow not having this technology.

Let's not forget about the countless, more important technologies that Infiniti has been slow to adopt.

rboyd4

Please educate me. Exactly what "more important technologies" was Infiniti slow to adopt?

PS Please cite "modern" examples- I don't care about tech gaps of 5 or so years ago. Also, having no idea of what technologies you are talking about, please be mindful of price differences so that your comments have a logical apples to apple basis.

lexusguy

So whats the deal with this new 3.0L? It seems like everything from Camry to GS is getting the new 3.5L. What was the point of this engine?

tiag_m5

Well you pretty much nixed everything with your 5 year limit. But then again, nothing really major has been introduced within the last 5 years. If you're willing to budge one or two years I can think of head protection airbags and stability control just off the top of my head. Infiniti has never been quick on uptake the uptake of new stuff...

On another note, does anyone know when C/D or Motor Trend plan to publish their next roundup of luxury-sport sedans? It will be interesting to see who comes out on top.

tiag_m5

For what its worth, it did manage to beat out a Volvo S80 ::applause::

I read the article and the only major gripes the editors had with the 5 were styling, I-Drive, and Active Steering. Styling is subjective, I-Drive is over-hyped, and active steering is optional.

From Motortrend: "The STS, on the other hand, goes down easier. It comes close to the harder-edged 545i in most areas of performance, while managing superior ride quality, stopping distances, and ease of use."

Comes close in most areas of performance? Yeah I guess if by "close" they mean "lost in every test except braking."

From Motortrend: "For aficionados who appreciate fine machinery and top-grade materials and revel in the details of how the car is put together, there's no substitute for the Bimmer."

Also: "It's difficult to call a clear winner here, because even though these two compete on size, price, features, and performance, they end up demonstrating differing approaches to the luxury/sport-sedan formula."

Maybe if it was Camaro vs. Mustang that might matter more, but a luxury\sport sedan needs to deliver a lot more than that, and the BMW doesnt measure up to the class leaders.

How exactly does it fail to "measure up" to the class leaders? It measures up just fine performance wise. In fact, the only negative comment regarding performance was the active steering... which again is optional. The question is, in what ways does the 5 not measure up? And please don't pull out the value or reliability cards... The last 5 wasn't the least expensive or the most reliable either yet it was obviously the best pick in its class as you've already said yourself. Styling is subjective, so arguing about the merits of design is ultimately a moot point. Active steering is optional... save yourself $1200 and don't order it.

What's left to hate?

jrock65

Beats me.

hpowders

The luxury sports sedan segment is just screaming for comparos from the major autorags.

cohenfive

"Totally. I saw a thing about it on TV. The cameras are mounted in the dash, and if your eyes start leaving the road for long periods of time or your head starts to droop, it triggers an alarm. No idea when its going to start showing up in production Volvos though."

actually it doesn't sound an alarm but instead pours a hot cup of coffee!!

richcream

Exactly how long have you worked for BMW?

cohenfive

this debate has been pretty entertaining. i consider myself pretty knowledgeable about 5 series bmw's having owned two 540 6 speeds (97 and 99) as well as my current ride which is an 01 m5. i'm one of the guys disappointed in some of the directions bmw has gone (idrive, styling, active steering) but as some have pointed out their sales have continued to rise, although in large degree due to the diversification of their model line away from the 3,5 and 7 series. also they have huge growth in asia and imo that is one of the major reasons you are seeing more radical styling departures for bmw--their high growth target segment is no longer in the good old u.s.a....

i've driven the e60 and didn't like it very much, and won't be able to afford the new m5 so at some point will take a serious look at cars like the m45 sport when i want to replace the m5. oh, and for what it's worth my kids hate the styling of the e60 (teenagers, not conservative old farts like their dad).....

moxie

Why not? These are two critical factors in the decision making process - and the reason for BMW's decline; even in the eyes of us previously fanatic owners/believers !