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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Agree but the turbodiesel MBs of today are very durable cars that are built to last.(certainly longer than most if not all cars powered by gasoline).

    I am not talking about JD Power Quality results on the first 90 days of ownership. I am talking about quality results on the first few decades of ownership.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    At least in L.A.-- a clearly green and liberal town, it's cool to drive a hybrid. Don't let the Hollywood liberals fool you, many los angelenos like myself are about image and not substance. So do we really care if we're saving gas? Maybe not. At least we're driving a hybrid. How's that for trendiness?

    Now how can I disagree with that? :P

    In fact many urbanites worldwide fit the above description(including Torontorians). Hollywood is not the sole inventor of "image without substance" ;)
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    The batteries are a huge deal to me. I don't want to give up the space they need, nor do I like the enormous weight they add to the car, and screw up the handling, braking, etc. Also, when I get involved in a collision, will I be burned, electrocuted or smashed by these batteries? Who knows? We don't have enough experience with that yet.

    I have no interest in the hybrid scam - and that's what I feel it is, a scam.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I have no interest in the hybrid scam - and that's what I feel it is, a scam.

    Your admitted lack of knowledge on the subject is actually fairly typical. Most folks really don't understand it.

    Yes, there were fears at first, but now it is known that you will not get electrocuted. And the extra weight you speak of is much less significant than your passengers, and do you not allow passengers in your car because you think they will screw up the handling and braking?

    While understandable, your remarks are knee-jerk over-reactions based upon fear and a lack of information.

    I guess Toyota and Honda and others are going to pull a fast one on the whole world . . . and get away with it.

    Chill out and enjoy some of the technological advancements and benefits of modern times.

    :)

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Its not as if Toyota said "lets throw in some batteries and see what happens". These cars have obviously been tested to death. Considering the Prius and Insight have been around since '99, and not a single person has been killed by flying batteries, I think you'll be safe.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Despite the fact that the hybrid driving population is not yet extinct from electrocution does not mean that hybrids make economic or rational sense.

    Light and powerful lithium ion batteries and cheaper mass produced hybrid technology will make hybrids economically sensible in the future. But we will have to wait until that day arrives.

    Oh yes this is a LPS forum, what sense is there to talk about rational justifications when every single LPS bought is not a rationally justifiable purchase? Let's face it the only justification for driving a LPS is strictly emotional and not at all rational. So based on that logic maybe a GS450H does make sense.

    My own irrational preferences for a LPS are not at all ruled by green considerations(if that was the case I would give up any idea of luxury and performance and just buy the upcoming low priced hybrid Honda Fit--that would be the most rational thing to do)
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Dewey,
    How many of us drive two, three, four, or more vehicles? MANY of us do, particularly those on this forum and the HELMs forum. So why not park a HELM or LPS, a truck, a hybrid, and an SUV in the same garage? Maybe throw in a sports car, while you're at it. Wouldn't that be a nice variety to choose from that would meet most of our needs and whims as well?
    You know I totally love the idea!
    TagMan
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    I won't be electrocuted or scarred for life from the batteries. And hopefully they'll be Duracells.....

    Still waiting to see however, if the price premium paid, can return to me the savings in gasoline cost within 200,000 miles. That's why I think it's a feel-good scam...at least at this point.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    It's one test so far that got 22 mpg for the GS450h. We should wait for a few more real world tests to determine what the mpg will be.

    I'd take an M45 over the GS450h as well, but I'd take a GS450h over a GS430. That's why the GS450h is a significant vehicle. It's the first hybrid that is the same price as its non-hybrid counterpart, yet is faster and of course more fuel efficient.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    nvbanker,
    There's a really interesting forum called "hybrids in the news" that I visit and post to sometimes, because I actually like the hybrid technology. No, I don't think it is the perfect solution, but I do think it is at least a step in the right direction, and we've been through a lot of years without any major progress, so I love the idea of improving and changing technologies. At least it's progress instead of S.O.S., if you know what I mean. Don't be surprised that there are many folks that share your views on that forum, and it is an appropriate place to discuss the hybrid topic.

    TagMan
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    Thanks, Tag...I'll mosey on over. Check out those folks who may be buying an Oldsmobile Diesel!! :P
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,111
    I can find little that supports any other conclusion than your "feel-good" scam comment with the "at this point" qualifier.

    I would be all in favor of this, or I think I would be, if there weren't alternatives that don't have battery weight and replacement costs to contend with.

    Maybe I should pull my head out of the sand though -- maybe this is where we were a few years ago with sat nav. Who, I thought, would pay $3500 (or more) for sat nav when you can get a map for a lot less?

    Of course, now that my wife and I have had 6 cars with sat nav, it seems almost "who wouldn't" get sat nav (plus the price has dropped 50%.)

    You see, I became spoiled when after 3 visits to Germany where I had taken the Audi winter driving school (actually in Seefeld, Austria), Audi gave us new 2.5L Turbo diesel A4 quattros with 6 speed manuals to drive for three days.

    While "only" offering some 180HP compared with the gasoline versions 220 or so (this was in early 2002), the torque and smoothness of the diesels (coupled with their fuel sipping ways) won me over.

    Then I see the Audi A8L with a really torquey 4.2TD get over 40MPG's, well I began to dream of a car about the size of an A6, equipped pretty much as we have come to expect from LPS cars with that same 4.2TD engine in it, beating the pants off the other guys and getting MPG's in the low to mid 30's even with my lead foot.

    Then batteries happened. :confuse:

    Now, finally, maybe US consumers will see the hybrids are "an" alternative, but perhaps not one that has as much merit as a seemingly old and friendly technology that moves our goods -- diesel. And a little bit of "hep" from Audi may be just what the public needs to whack it upside the head -- IF the diesel can win, place or show.

    "One of the most dominant manufacturers in sportscar racing in the last few years, Audi, heads this weekend to America's most storied sportscar race, the 12 Hours of Sebring. Promoting diesel technology with the debut of the new TDI-powered Audi R10 and with serious competition from rivals like Porsche, the 12-hour endurance race promises to be legendary."

    "The new Audi R10 TDI has written a piece of motorsport history making its début at Sebring (USA): For the first time ever, a diesel powered car has claimed pole position in a sportscar race. In Thursday’s qualifying session, Scotland’s Allan McNish broke the track record by over two seconds, impressively underlining the performance of the modern Audi TDI technology."

    I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Posts: 767
    Still waiting to see however, if the price premium paid, can return to me the savings in gasoline cost within 200,000 miles. That's why I think it's a feel-good scam...at least at this point

    I have not researched thoroughly on the technology, but I do look at the hybrid technology differently. As long as the premium for it is not huge, you might stand a good chance to recover some or most that additional cost at the time of reselling your vehicle. Combine the fuel saving, and feeling good at the gas pumps, I think it's may just worth my hard earned $.
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Posts: 767
    I'd take an M45 over the GS450h as well, but I'd take a GS450h over a GS430. That's why the GS450h is a significant vehicle. It's the first hybrid that is the same price as its non-hybrid counterpart, yet is faster and of course more fuel efficient.

    I would not touch anything Infiniti. I hated their sales people in my car shopping experience, so regardless of how nice their vehicles are, I would never go back to their stores. OTOH, I am very happy with the GS. I don't need the room of an LS but I like Lexus's definition of sport/luxury.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 6,067
    Just the opposite is true regarding resale value because of the battery replacement issue down the road. For example, would you pay a premium for a 5 year old hybrid only to be faced with paying another $6,000. to replace the batteries in 2 or 3 years?

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Posts: 767
    Geez, you don't need to get all snippy
    My apology.

    I think the Z4 is perfect for weekend flings with the girl friends. The GS450h is perfect to go out with the wife and occasionally with her parents. The Subaru wagon is perfect for trips to Home Depots... Therefore, each car has it own merits. ;)
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    So, you have several girl friends, a wife and a local Home depot. Geez, you've got lots of cars. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Posts: 767
    Is that a fact? as I have said, I have not got all the info on Lexus Hybrid, but I doubt a company like Toyota, known for good values/reliability, would sell a product that, in your view, goes against all that. It would be a big gamble that I don't see Lexus would want to be known for.
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Posts: 767
    LOL, I only have 2 right now, GS and Subi and no girl friends.
    By the way, thanks for the reply on the turbo question.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    No problem. ;-)
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,111
    Let's just say the batteries are $6,000 which is down from the numbers I have seen published in the Car Enthusiasts magazines. Let's just say that the batteries in your chosen used car have a predicted life of X years and the original owner kept the car for 65% of those years.

    The price, USED, of this car NO MATTER HOW NICE with only 35% of its battery life left and an estimated cost of $6,000 to replace them would be (you choose) "higher" or "lower?" Hmm. I'd bet the price will drop like a stone on a planet with high gravity and no atmosphere, so to speak.

    On another issue, there are those "would you" games we played in school -- you may remember them, they were meant to be oh so telling and philosophical and thought provoking.

    "Would you do the wrong thing but for the right reason?" kind of Deep Thoughts.

    It is my perhaps Homer Simpson Bold Opinion that this hybrid brouhaha is a perfect example of "doing the wrong thing (in so many ways) for the right reason."

    Diesels, forced induction and all clean and pretty smelling, are able to do the right thing for the right reason.

    Prediction: Hybrids "seemed like a good idea at the time" but are/were for all practical purposes based on what we know now and where we are today a "blunder" up there with Piech's Folly, the Phaeton. We just can't own up to it yet, 'cause we have so much invested in it, hopefully it will "catch on."

    "Wax on, wax off." :surprise:
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    All this focus on the batteries, as though they were the achilles heal of hybrid technology.

    Prediciton: The batteries will last longer than the fearful will predict. The replacements, which will be MANY years down the road will be MUCH cheaper than current estimates. The replacements will be a NEWER technology than the ones they replace. Hybrids will be mainstream.

    Diesel: It will get MUCH better, cleaner, and more popular.

    It is important that fuel-efficient vehicles are the ones that get purchased, because if they do, then the manufacturers will build more of them. If the gas hogs are the ones that get purchased because of resistance to progress, then there will be less progress made.

    The marketplace will determine what happens, and I sincerely hope that it rewards progress. Remember, progress is never the perfect solution . . . but at least it points in the right direction, as opposed to the naysayers that would have us stay the same destructive course because the progress isn't good enough for them, but somehow doing nothing is.

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    There's a very interesting article in this month's C&D about the "hybrid" motor that BMW is working on. Rather than using regenerative braking, it uses the heat and wasted energy from the car's exhaust to drive a steam engine, which gives the ICE currently about a 15-20hp boost. BMW says there's a 15-20% increase in fuel economy, there are no batteries, and unlike gas\electric hybrids, the system works all the time, not just in stop and go traffic.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,111
    Yep -- and here I bet you thought I was making it up several posts back!
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 6,067
    I also hope the hybrid technology becomes a raging success. If the cost goes down dramatically this could happen. Right now I believe the only people buying these cars are people who want to make a statement. An expensive statement.

    Maybe in a few years we will be able to drop a little nuclear capsule into our water tank and drive for years and years by just adding water when needed. Of course we will probably be running out of water by then and it will cost $10. a gallon. :)

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    You wouldn't believe the price I paid for one of the first computers. Do I regret it? Not at all. Now I've got one that is light speed by comparison and costs a fraction of the early models. But next year it will be a snail by comparison again. That's just how it goes with technology and improvements. I'm good with it. I'm not avoiding it because it improves quickly! I'm jumping right in and enjoying it. Am I wasting money? Maybe a little, but I'm in the game and loving it. I think you see my point.

    I'm looking forward to your nuclear capsule.

    TagMan
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Rather than using regenerative braking, it uses the heat and wasted energy from the car's exhaust to drive a steam engine, which gives the ICE currently about a 15-20hp boost. BMW says there's a 15-20% increase in fuel economy, there are no batteries, and unlike gas\electric hybrids, the system works all the time, not just in stop and go traffic.

    BMW estimates this technology will be introduced in about ten years. I will hold my enthusiasm for this technology before the year 2016.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    I've long wondered why car makers didn't try to capture some of the wasted energy in the exhaust system for simple things like running the A/C, Alternator, Water Pump, and maybe even an auxilary drive for a hydraulic pump for the power steering and brakes (although some cars now power those devices with electricity).

    As I see it, upon cold start, the engine could drive a serpentine belt that in turn drives all of the various accessories. Then when enough of a head of steam was built up, have a clutch for the engine/belt pully interface decouple and then engage the steam driven belt. Gee, thinking about this further, just keep the engine engaged and let the steam driven pully help the engine along as well. This doesn't seem to me to be too much of a technological leap that it would take ten years to perfect. Obviously I'm missing something. :confuse:

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I've long wondered why car makers didn't try to capture some of the wasted energy in the exhaust system for simple things like running the A/C, Alternator, Water Pump, and maybe even an auxilary drive for a hydraulic pump for the power steering and brakes

    As many of your posts have indicated, you have a good engineering sense, and the answer to your question is the common and unfortunate one. MONEY. There has been little financial incentive to be energy efficient when those that have the energy sell the energy and have all the power. They will be the same ones that take control of WHATEVER the new forms of energy are and the methods of distribution. That's why we will be in a state of transition for years to come. So, it is up to us to embrace the fuel-efficient vehicles, and reward progress in the marketplace.

    TagMan
  • warthogwarthog Posts: 216
    "those that have the energy sell the energy and have all the power. They will be the same ones that take control of WHATEVER the new forms of energy are and the methods of distribution."

    Are those the same guys in the black helicopters?
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