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Luxury Performance Sedans



  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    And yet the Toureg V-10 TDI which is something like $65K is making a comeback..
  • docnukemdocnukem Posts: 485
    Now the question becomes: Will the existing Phaetons increase in value as collectibles?

    How many did they sell in North America?
  • No marketing, or hardly any -- what do they expect.

    Of course without a dealer network at the proper level, well. . .

    And, no need to put the Phaeton in Audi dealers, they already have one. . .

    I still think the concept was sound, the execution sucked, tho. . . :confuse:
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Some good news for the few manual purists out there!

    BMW Z4 M

    The BMW Z4 M will not have SMG but will be sold only with a 6 speed manual!

    IMO that is the way it should be!
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I seriously doubt it. They were not a limited production run, nor were there special factory options available that would make a car valuable. I cant imagine that resale on the car was any good from the beginning, and I dont see this helping matters any.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    "I still think the concept was sound"

    How so? You mentioned that VW doesnt have the type of dealer service expected at this price level, they dont even have the prestige level of an Acura, let alone M-B or BMW, the car competed with Audi... how is this still a good idea?
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Posts: 1,986
    I'll just add this tidbit from sniffpetrol I lifted from a friend:

    There were red-faces in Wolfsburg last night following an embarrassing revelation about the origins of Volkswagen's innovative W12 engine. Although engineering experts initially believe that the W-pattern cylinder layout was a clever way of making a large capacity engine more compact it has now emerged that the unique format is simply the result of German people and their inability to say the letters 'v' and 'w'. 'I'm afraid this is true,' admitted one anonymous engineer. 'In Germany the letter 'w' is pronounced as a 'v' and this is where the confusion arose. We were ordered to create a new V12 engine for our flagship models but unfortunately someone wrote the 'v' down as a 'w', thus creating a needlessly complex engineering development programme.'"
  • jjacurajjacura Posts: 808
    Sounds like you are really enjoying the M and that's the bottom line for any LPS owner. One thing Doc....I was reading the only unpublished Bond novel from Ian Fleming called "From Infinity With Love" and he described those driver seat abarations. Just a little friendly word of precaution...Be prepared to Jetison :surprise: out through the sunroof one of these days.(You do have a sunroof?) :shades:
  • The concept I was meaning was the "idea" to move VW upmarket -- to create a brand that "could" compete with Mercedes but at 80% of the price.

    The concept was let Audi go head to head with BMW and VW not try to be the sporty lux division, but the "classic" lux division.

    Most of the write ups about the car (the Phaeton V8) were positive about the effort (but with a lot of content borrowed from the A8L, that is not too hard to imagine.)

    It was not to be for many reasons, most of them I can identify and actually agree with.

    I thought the concept "could" work -- the execution made it darn near impossible to succeed without an infusion of money that thankfully VW couldn't and didn't even try to muster.

    I continue to be impressed with Audi's moves into the Premium class (but, they are RECENT entrants and they do not have the "been there all along" reputation [at least in the US] that the other Germans enjoy.)

    The Passat, hopefully, will benefit from the Phaeton's influence -- time will tell.

    So much can (and will) change over the next 24 months which is again when I will be back in the hunt.

    BMW's 530xi, Cadillac's STS AWD and the Infiniti M35x (in addition to the A6, of course) would merit my attention.

    Price too will be an important factor.

    If a new 530xi with a 6spd manual remains, it certainly could ascend to the top if it is not outrageously priced.

    Who knows, the whole landscape could change by then.

    I wouldn't really ever have been in the market for the L wheelbase Phaeton.

    If money was unlimted, or at least only slightly so, the Audi S8 looks like it would be the one to beat.

    That car looks like it puts a capital P in lPs cars.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    "The concept was let Audi go head to head with BMW and VW not try to be the sporty lux division, but the "classic" lux division."

    Right, the only problem is VW is not, nor have they ever been, a luxury division, let alone a "classic" one. It would be like Subaru making an $80K super lux sedan. Could they do it? Sure. That doesnt make it a good idea. No one would buy one for the same reasons. Also, couldnt the luxury\sport thing be handled by something as simple as an optional sport package for the A8?
  • jlbljlbl Posts: 1,333
    Right, IMO. I full agree with you.

    Coincidentally, Phaeton has in some way had a similar death than that of the original Phaeton, the son of the Sun (the Old Greek God Helios). Phaeton robbed the 4-fire-horses-equipped car of its divine father only to loose control and fall down to the Earth, where the full set sat a horrendous fire. :sick: Then Phaeton and the fire were both put out by the Gods. :mad:

  • We are in agreement.

    I wonder what all this means with respect to the big bux Touareg's -- VW has a hard time here at least convincing most folks that their dealerships are up to snuff.

    I would think this alone would keep VW out of the LPS world for the foreseeable future.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    I wonder what all this means with respect to the big bux Touareg's

    My guess is that there will be a soon-to-be Audi Q7 V10 TDI that will replace the V10 TDI Tourareg! This substitution would eliminate VW dealership issues!
  • sdiver68sdiver68 Posts: 119
    Shopping the mid-size to entry LPS sedan space for my fiance, a decently equipped Passat is in BMW 330i territory price wise, and is not even as good a car overall as an Accord EX V6.

    IMHO, VW is in big trouble as long as the Euro remains strong to the dollar.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Posts: 1,938
    I read that the V10 TDI for the Touareg was dropped for the next model year. However, from what I'm seeing around my area, the Touareg is selling quite well, even in V8 trim.

    BUT, from what I read on the Touareg boards here, they are plagued with problems. That's a big shame because it's such a nice vehicle, IMO. I think it should've existed in it's current form as an Audi instead. I don't like the looks of the upcoming Q7.
  • jo2jo2 Posts: 41
    I am a previous BMW owner who is contemplating jumping ship and purchasing the M35 sport becuase of all of its bells and whistles (i.e. sirius radio, dvd player, nav). In the past anytime I have ever strayed from BMW I have always regretted it becuase of the way it takes a corner. Has anyone out there driven both and found that the BMW wins becuase of the handling and acceleration?

    As far as I can tell by the internet the infiniti M35 sport seems to exceed the BMW on paper in every category. But true BMW owners know the feel that they get when they drive a BMW and other than a Porsche, I have yet to experience that with hardly any other car.

    Also the I-Drive on the BMW looks like a pain in the butt. Any BMW owners out there who think that you get used to it and it becomes second nature? Or is it always a pain?

    Any comments would be very helpful Thanks!
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Posts: 1,938
    I've driven a 550i Sport, a 530i, and an M45 Sport. They both (550i Sport/M45 Sport) can nail a corner pretty well, but I don't quite trust the M's rubberband sized tires for really hard turning (at speed). I can't say that you'd be disappointed in the M35 Sport. I will say that you'll probably be disappointed in the 530i's lack of oomph. The 530i felt like a total dog. But a V8 makes pretty much anything less feel like a dog. I'm sure the M35 feels like a dog after driving an M45.
  • docnukemdocnukem Posts: 485
    I know you said M35, but by the time you outfit a 530i with the same options you get on an M45 sport with the tech package (assuming you get the sport package on the 530), you are looking at similar MSRP's (actually a little in favor of the M45 sport). I believe the tires are actually lower profile but wider on the M (go to Infiniti's site and do the comparison--they have a good setup). You gain the rear-active steer on the M sport for even better cornering. get the option of a manual with the 5. How much is that worth? To some people, that would more than make up the difference.

    If you don't need AWD (only on the 530xi and M35x), my choice would be the M45. You do have to ask yourself how you will feel in a year if you go with the Infiniti (even if you love it) as you seem to subconsciously (or not) want the BMW.

    I'm not one to talk (since I had to have the M35x), but test drive, test drive, test drive.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The tough question is, can VW continue to exist here at all? Is there still room in the US automarket for a "value priced" German brand? And if VW isnt that anymore, what are they?
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The Toureg is CR's absolute worst ranked midsize SUV for reliability, with much worse scores than even Land Rover gets.
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