Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Luxury Performance Sedans

1246247249251252335

Comments

  • bartalk3bartalk3 Posts: 692
    Can someone post June sales for LPS's?
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    BMW 5-Series: 5,199 (+24.3%)
    MB E-class: 4,213 (+0.2%)
    Cadillac STS: 2,565 (-31.0%)
    Lexus GS: 2,191 (-33.9%)
    Infiniti M35/45:
    Audi A6: 1,748 (+10.5%)
    Acura RL: 980 (-37.4%)

    M
  • bartalk3bartalk3 Posts: 692
    Thanks, merc1. GS sales are sinking fast, probably in anticipation of the GS350 coming soon to a dealer near you. RL sales are collapsing, even though they're being discounted as much as $9,000 off sticker, with Acura offering dealers a $3,000 incentive. 5-Series sales are phenomenal (what accounts for that?).
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Posts: 402
    BMW 5-Series: 5,199 (+24.3%)
    MB E-class: 4,213 (+0.2%)
    Cadillac STS: 2,565 (-31.0%)
    Lexus GS: 2,191 (-33.9%)
    Infiniti M35/45: 2,012 (-18.9%)
    Audi A6: 1,748 (+10.5%)
    Acura RL: 980 (-37.4%)
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Strangely, the GS seems to be dragging the M down with it. Or is Audi taking sales away from Infiniti? The A6 vs. M seems to be a very popular choice, on these boards at least.

    The fact that Acura can't sell the RL even at $40K is a seriously problem, and makes it questionable as to whether a lower content\lower price RL will do anything to boost sales. How much lower can they go? The TL is $36K. A free RL with every tire rotation?
  • quemfalaquemfala Posts: 107
    Haven't you heard? Our loony politicians would have us believe that there's a recession and nobody has any money! It's the underground economy fueling the sales. Cash deals! Get in on the action, buy a car! Especially a BMW, where "deals" don't exist.
  • bartalk3bartalk3 Posts: 692
    The Achilles heel of the M35/45 is gas mileage--very poor. That may account for some of the declining sales. Apparently the M35 engine isn't that efficient to begin with, and then they geared it way up for power so that at 60mph the engine is doing 2,500rpm (compared to 1,800-2,000)for most of the competition.
  • calhoncalhon Posts: 87
    Politics aside, combined LPS sales decreased by about 10%.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,093
    Or:

    German LPS sales UP

    Everyone else's LPS sales DOWN.

    What I am about to write is not my opinion -- you may argue with me, and I will attempt to take a counter position, but this does not exactly represent my thoughts.

    Two people talking:

    "How's it going?"

    "Pretty good, how about with you?"

    "Things are OK, but being the in commercial lending industry at this time, bonuses are down a bit, so I had to settle when I got my new car?"

    "Settle? Settle on what. . .?"

    "Well I've always wanted a BMW and probably would've even considered an Audi, but I settled for one of those Infiniti M's."

    "Wow, that's too bad. . ."

    "Tell me about it -- but you know, the Infiniti is a great car, well made, powerful and all the toys -- you should hear the sound system, it makes my home system sound tinny."

    "Gee, sorry you couldn't get your Bimmer."

    "Yea, me too -- next time."

    This, of course is a made up conversation, but it is based on reality -- not exactly a widespread reality, since I can't claim to have heard this kind of conversation more than a couple of times. . . .

    But, here in River City, "everyone" wants a Bimmer -- or so it seems.

    When a person gets a new Lexus or Cadillac or Infiniti or Acura, the responses are always something "is that so" or "well I'll be darned, how do you like it."

    If the person gets a new Bimmer, it is somehow like they were just misted with pheromones.

    Passats may have the lowest ego emotions (or so says their commercials), but "everyone" lusts for the blue propeller on the hood.

    The Americans and the Japanese cars are apparently the ones "we" settle on -- when we "can't get" (for whatever reason) a German model, usually a BMW, Mercedes or Audi (a distant third, there, to be sure, in this country.)

    Don't shoot me, I'm only the piano player. :surprise:
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The Americans and the Japanese cars are apparently the ones "we" settle on -- when we "can't get" (for whatever reason) a German model, usually a BMW, Mercedes or Audi (a distant third, there, to be sure, in this country.)

    In the LPS class, thats probably true. In the entry level class, I'm not so sure. The leaders are the TL and G35, and there are cheaper BMWs and Audis available. If German badge lust were everything, I think a lot more people would be buying stripper 325is and A4 2.0Ts, rather than "settling" on TLs and Gs.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,093
    Relax. . .nothing we say, certainly nothing I say is any cause for defensiveness.

    "Oh yeah?"

    "Yeah!"

    :D
  • pearlpearl Posts: 336
    While this issue has been beaten to death on this forum, it is worth noting that (apparently) the 07 M will NOT get the newly revised VQ engine. It seems that the "80% new" VQ will only go to the new G, where it is claimed that both power and efficiency will be improved. If so, and if Nissan has done nothing in the current climate (actually going back almost a year) to improve at least the cruising MPG of the M, shame on them, and they will likely take a hit on sales as a result. The new GS350 is likely to be a 20/28 MPG/EPA car vs. the 18/25 of the M, with the real results probably another MPG or two in the GS's favor. Maybe the new VQ would have helped this situation?? Many people on this board have discussed this subject and believe that Nissan could have, a) put a six speed auto in with a higher OD top end to improve cruising MPG; or, b) at least changed the gear ratio in the existing five speed to accomplish some of the same. Not apparent that this happened. If not, too bad. M sales are slipping already and if the 07's don't offer some improvements, particularly in MPG, then expect the sales to slip further. While these are luxo/performance cars, other than the ultra top end machines, no one can totally ignore MPG these days.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Relax. . .nothing we say, certainly nothing I say is any cause for defensiveness.

    I wasn't being defensive, just making an observation. In the LPS class, I'm sure there are many sales that go to team Japan that may otherwise have gone to team Germany had the buyers been able to afford the extra monthly payment. In the midsize and fullsize classes, the Germans are usually more expensive, often substantially so at the LS vs. S level.

    My point was there are cases where the German badge is similarly priced or even more affordable, (Audi A3, for example) and yet there are still plenty of buyers going to Acura, Infiniti, and Lexus.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    BMW 545 V8 automatic 18/26 MPG/EPA.

    Infiniti M 35 V6 automatic 18/25 MPG/EPA.
  • rich545rich545 Posts: 386
    So much for the M being the 5 Series killer huh? 5 Series sales continue to soar while M sales are sliding in what, its second year? I'm sure the M did accomplish a fair number of conquest sales over the German competitors, but certainly in the case of the 5 it has been anything but a killer. I think there is more to it than MPG too. Most buyers that I know in this segment (myself included) don't worry too much about it (whether right or wrong).
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,093
    Credence is further lent to the notion I overheard and presented a few posts back -- if you can't get a German car (for whatever reason), you may tend to "settle" on one of the American or Japanese "wannabee's."

    Like I said, I am not totally convinced that is the entire story -- in my case, I just would not pay $829-ish for an Audi when the M was in the $6's. The moment Audi seemed to get it leasing program in line with its MSRP, well -- I came back to the Audi.

    I guess, come to think of it, with 14 months of hindsight, perhaps I was one of those who was 'bout to settle on a Japanese LPS -- and I even flirted with getting an STS as a "settle" car when the Audi was "outrageously" priced.

    The leasing deals on BMW's from what I can tell are still quite stimulative (at least here in Zinzinnati -- "vas you ever in Zin-zin atti? Ja?!?")
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Posts: 402
    Yes, I believe the fantasy of M as BMW killer was an artifact of a few auto magazine and newspaper reviews. Often in comparative reviews, the cars are selected by price range. The BMW model used is always the lowest HP engine available and the review often says that the BMW would have finished first, if it had more power. So, when the lowest price in class M35/M45 appeared, it did "kill" (in the sense of accelerate much faster) the BMW.

    So many of the articles, when about the new BMW engines, rave about the amazing combination of new (more powerful and refined technology) combined with better mpg. But the comparative reviews tend to give great weight to whichever car can accelerate fastest for the least money.
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Posts: 402
    Where you live might make a difference in how excited you get about the prospect of an Audi "ownership experience." In my area, it's a VW-Audi dealership (in fact, many nearby are) and there is none of that "hey Joe, great to see you, how are the kids, join us at the Audi refreshment bar, etc -- more like "we can get you in for service in two weeks, unless the car has broken down on the side of the road). And the same dealer owns the BMW dealership down the road.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,093
    And hopefully posts like yours are read by Audi (and all the mfrg's, indeed) -- for it is places like this forum where opinions ARE formulated, purchase decisions swayed and attitudes shaped.

    Edmunds in some respects may be a strong player in the perception is reality sweepstakes.

    Now, we have two Audi dealerships in Cincinnati -- and I have only actually purchased from one of them, but I have shopped both.

    I didn't buy from the other dealer for one reason -- they housed both Volvo and Audi sales in the same building and when I went to look at an Audi there, the sales staff (supposedly neutral) spent all their time telling us the advantages of Volvos (over Audis.)

    Of course, these days, only the legacy dealers seem to be able to get away with such "dual dealerships."

    Heck, my Audi dealership was "forever" an Audi Porsche outlet -- no more, nope -- neither Audi nor Porsche will stand for that on a forever ongoing basis these days.

    It kinda makes sense -- one would perhaps have to compete for purchase dollars with the other one.

    Of course the Cadillac dealer is also a Hummer dealer, maybe that gets a pass since they're both GM brands.

    Anyway, if there is not a well educated, marketing aware/savvy, well-read and ear to the ground kind of person who is passionate about Audi's (employee of AoA) monitoring these posts, well -- sign me up.

    Your post, were I Audi of America would be a call to arms to "fix" the situation.

    As the phrase is so often defined: Audi means, "we listen," [sic].

    Never Follow, indeed. :shades:
  • carnaughtcarnaught Posts: 1,596
    "BMW 545 V8 automatic 18/26 MPG/EPA $60,000+

    Infiniti M 35 V6 automatic 18/25 MPG/EPA" $47,000+
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    To that I would add:

    BMW 545i V8 automatic 18/26 MPG/EPA $60,000+
    Infiniti M 35 V6 automatic 18/25 MPG/EPA $47,000+
    BMW 530i I6 manual 21/29 MPG/EPA $47,500+

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • carnaughtcarnaught Posts: 1,596
    BMW 545i V8 automatic 18/26 MPG/EPA $60,000+
    Infiniti M 35 V6 automatic 18/25 MPG/EPA $47,000+
    BMW 530i I6 manual 21/29 MPG/EPA $47,500+


    Well, the 530i is more like $49,600+ but the manual is a different bird and with much less feaures for the 530i's almost base price, eh?
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Well, the 530i is more like $49,600+ but the manual is a different bird and with much less feaures for the 530i's almost base price, eh?

    The base price of a 530i is in fact $47,500. Yes, no? Well, I suppose you could really call it $48,195 with shipping. Where does the $49,600 come from?

    As far as features, yes, the base 530i does come with a few less goodies, however, it does come with one feature that isn't avalilble on the M at any price. Yup, you guessed it, the manual gearbox, an option that I would willingly pay thousands for. So, comparing a 530i manual with an M35 automatic as close as possible (i.e. both of them with "Sport" trim) to how I would configure them myself, the MSRP would be $55K for the 530i, and $51K for the M35. Of course I wouldn't even dream of buying a 530i for that price. Why? The European Delivery cost for that same $55K 530i is about $49K. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,093
    I'm with you -- and the difficulty here when we're talking about MSRP has, apparently, little to do with the tco (for the record total cost of ownership for "X" time or miles.)

    For reasons that have been hashed to death here, BMW appears to be in the car rental business.

    That is, BMW seems to encourage renting their cars for 4 years or 50 thousand miles or some number of months and miles that will not exceed either 48 or 50,000 respectively.

    While it IS accurate to state that the Infiniti M35X with Journey, Technology and the equivalent of the BMW 530xi sport package is somewhere between 3 and 5 thousand dollars less based on MSRP, here is what seems to happen:

    The monthly price for the BMW on a per thousand MSRP basis is lower than the Infiniti. The BMW has free maintenance for the 50K term.

    The BMW charges less for the stick shift than the auto and the stick isn't even offered on the M35X, at any price.

    The BMW gets better MPG's and has, in most markets, more magnetism.

    So, yeah, the BMW will be more money at pure MSRP, but equal to or less than the toc than the Infiniti AND can be had with a stick shift.

    Game, set, match BMW.

    Now to mess this nice neat little scenario up:

    The Audi A6 3.2 Sline is -- of the three (Audi 3.2 SLine, BMW 530xi with the sport package [that offers literally NO sporting/performance or ground effects bits and even requires extra $ for the high perf wheels/tires] and the Infiniti M35X with ground effects and extra cost 19" wheels but no sport suspension, no 6 speed transmission of any shifting quality, etc.) -- is, if one must have the autotrans (95%) the sportiest and arguably most sure footed.

    The SLine A6 3.2 (or 4.2 V8 if you feel the need for "more speed") is the only one of these cars that actually offers sport wheels/tires (in 18 or 19 inch diam), sport suspension and sport trim. The other cars, from BMW and Infiniti do not offer sport suspensions -- period.

    One may certainly argue that the Audi needs the sport suspension the most of the three -- and there certainly is some evidence that says, "yup -- the Audi is NOSE heavy and it needs the uprated suspension and tires to counteract its native desire to understeer." Guilty as charged -- but I submit the Sline offering more than offsets most of the front end porkiness of the Audi.

    BMW must be offering Audi a pass, this once, since they offer a stick shift in a well balanced but under tired and under suspended AWD sports sedan.

    The BMW with the 18" upgraded wheels/tires in stick shift guise is probably THE choice of a driver wishing maximum control and high levels of performance.

    But, their statistics must show that folks buying AWD BMW's are even less likely to order a stick shift than those buyers selecting normal 530is.

    My BMW sales rep friends claim two things: they will NOT order a 5 series with a stick shift PERIOD (if it is for inventory); and, that every 530xi stick that is ordered and the buyer renegs, is immediately snatched up.

    I ask the logical (to me) follow up question, "why if 5 series cars with stick shifts sell more rapidly than auto versions, (but apparently NOT rapidly enough to 'risk' buying even one per month for inventory purposes?) not order some small quantity for inventory purposes?!)

    This at a dealer that sells 100 cars a month overall.

    I'll either get a 5 (or maybe 3) AWD stick (and hope they will offer a true sport suspension) or an A6 or A5 SLine and hope they offer a stick shift or at the very least a DSG transmission.

    I remain certain I would have been happy with the M35X that I "almost" bought, yet, today, somehow, someway, "nothing seems to satisfy quite like Beef."

    (excuse me, like a German sedan.) :blush:
  • quemfalaquemfala Posts: 107
    Am I missing something on this thread? Comparing a V-8 to a 6 cylinder?? Sorry, it's getting too confusing for me. 8's vs. 8's, 6's vs. 6's and $'s vs $'s. Now that's something to which I can relate.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Mark,

    As you well know, I'm effectively the "Loyal Opposition" when it comes to AWD, and as such I cannot see ever being in the market for an AWD car. ;-) That having been said, the A6 S-Line certainly narrows the gap between the A6 and the 5er when AWD is under consideration (as compared to a FWD A6 vs. a 530i SP with a stick). In the AWD scenario, the A6 should well have the advantage over even a "Tarted Up" eighteen inch wheeled 530xi (which cannot be had with a Sport Suspension). What these two come down to is better suspension for the A6 and a better transmission (i.e. one with three pedals) for the 530xi. That then leads to the "Tie-Breaker", which in my mind is the whole ED thing. Mrs. Shipo and I enjoyed our 530i ED experience SOOOOO much that we simply cannot wait to do it again.

    Winner: the 530xi via a tie-break. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • james27james27 Posts: 433
    When I was looking for a new car last year, regardless of performance and features, the only one that I comfortably fit in was the Infinity M. The insistence that a car in this class requires a sunroof, usurping as much as nearly 3" of headroom just meant I needed the bigger car. People are getting taller and wider...cars need good headroom. It is also very perplexing that some of the huge things out there have the seat cushion so high that even with their huge size, they've got less headroom than many much smaller vehicles. Until the other companies see this as an issue, I refuse to buy one. My previous car was a 1998 Audi A6, special ordered without a sunroof. While you can order one now, most of the desireable options can only be had with a sunroof. This is true with most of the other brands, if offered at all.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I believe Infiniti will be the first LPS to have all wheel drive on their V-8.

    Not quite. The '00 Audi A6 4.2 came only with Quattro all wheel drive, and Mercedes also offered the E430 4Matic that same year. The STS also offered AWD with the V8 when it launched, and the Volvo S80 V8 AWD came out last year. Infiniti has beaten Lexus and BMW, and of course Acura who has no V8 at all, but they are far from the first.
  • carnaughtcarnaught Posts: 1,596
    Where does the $49,600 come from?

    I configured the 530i with nothing but metallic paint and delivery to make it more comparable to the previous price comparison.

    hpowder's post (#7715) showed what one can get (a BMW 545, an 8 cylinder) to better the mpg an M35 Infiniti (a 6 cylinder). Then when Shipo introduced a base manual 530i into the price discussion, it brought in two more variables, a manual transmission and a base car vs. better equiped cars.

    Gentlemen, I'm not debating what car is better (BMW or M35), 6 vs.8 cylinders or auto vs. manual, but just pointing out that the 545's better gas mileage than an M35 comes at a sizeable price differential (my post #7723). Yes, one can cherry pick options and make my figures show an even greater or lesser price difference between the M35 and 545.

    (My disclaimer: I have both an '06 M35 and BMW. :shades: )
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,093
    Comparisons are apparently difficult to make for a variety of reasons:

    MSRP, number of cylinders, monthly cost to lease, performance, content, etc.

    It seems that one of the points was that the 6 cylinder Infiniti was similar in mileage to the 8 cylinder BMW.

    The value or merits of this data are certainly partially due to the value you place on horsepower, torque, accelerative performance, mileage and of course price (and even that is based on if you pay cash or lease, for it may seem to be cheaper to buy the car in cash even if the Mothly Payments are lower for the lease [another subject].)

    In any case, the data points seemed to me to tell a story -- a common sense story. And of course, common sense is ONLY common to ONE person, in this case, YOU.

    Read it and define it as it is most appropriate to you, that is.

    If, for instance, you were most interested in mileage + 0-60 times, you might feel the BMW was a better choice.

    The apparent higher cost of the BMW may or may not be important depending on how you afforded this purchase.
Sign In or Register to comment.