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Luxury Performance Sedans



  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    "iDrive does not control vital functions of the car."


    Is it different in the 5? I've heard from owners of 745s that the iDrive can fail and lock the ignition.
  • rich545rich545 Posts: 386
    There are definitely differences between iDrive in the 7 and 5. The 5's iDrive is apparentely much less confusing for one. Having said that, I guess I really shouldn't say iDrive failing wouldn't lock the ignition because I don't know for sure. I just don't see why it would given that you can't control anything with relation to the ignition with iDrive (at least in the 5). I could be wrong about that though if there is something behind the scenes that I don't know about. As I said though, my iDrive has never frozen and I've had the car since July, and it ain't exactly toasty in Chicago right now. For the most part, iDrive is just used to set up climate controls, seat heating, the stereo, NAV, communication in the form of BMW Assist and integrated phone, and trip computers. A good deal of this can be adjusted without using iDrive as well through voice commands, the buttons on the steering wheel and the heating/AC controls on the dash.
  • I see a degree of conventional thinking here. I'm presently going through hell with a Toyota '03 3.0L V6 in an Avalon (my wife's car) with sludge problems, and virtually no help or interest from the dealership. My own dearly loved car is a Riviera, '97, one heck of a vehicle: lovely to look at & a joy to drive. So I checked out the Buick Lacrosse in its top-of-the-line version, and liked it a lot--in fact the only thing I don't like is the strip of chrome across the dash. Handles very nicely, sits firm & square to the road--& I know, if I get one, I've got total reliability & superb, friendly service. There's a lot of baloney talked about cars in this country. In a longish life I've driven a lot of them, and I have to say that in a list including jaguars, MGs, Mercedes, and Toyota, a couple of my Buicks come out top.
  • what year 454i do you have?
  • Sorry 545 of course....
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    " Oh, and Japan makes the best cars in the world now, I think I forgot to mention that part."


    Thats a pretty tall statement. They surely are the most reliable as a group no doubt, but at other things...nope. Japanese cars as whole still don't look, drive, feel or perform as good as European cars as a whole. In all fairness Japan really doesn't have any competition for makes like Ferrari, Aston-Martin or Porsche, just a sports car here and there, but no brand or lineup from one maker to compete. Japanese are the most reliable and highest quality as a whole, but the other "car" aspects they continue to lag a good ways, especially if one isn't concerned with price. Where do American cars fit in? Hmmmmm.... lets see....


  • rich545rich545 Posts: 386
  • jjacurajjacura Posts: 808
    Merc...where would you put the Corvette C6 (Nominated for World Car of the Year award) in this mix?
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Things tend to work in a Buick because they generally get the oldest of the old that GM still has in service when it comes to platforms and engines. That "all-new" Lacrosse rides on a 20 year old platform with an engine at least as old as that. When you've been building something that long, chances are you've gotten all the bugs worked out. To say that the car beats things like Mercedes and Toyotas is just funny.


    I'm sorry your having the sludge issue, but as I've said before, several other automakers have had similar problems. Toyota is not alone on that, and they have since revised their oil change policy. I've got that same 3.0L in my wife's RX, and it works like clock work. Enjoy your buick residuals.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Wow, quite a different read than their GS first drive. The GS seemed to read "these cars are neat", while Edmunds gushed praise for the M's rev-matching, throttle bliping manumatic, calling car companies that dont have one "losers", and beautifully weighted steering. I think I already know the winner of Edmunds comparison test of these cars, and the 545 will not be it.
  • the BMW is a great car and fun to drive; however, I must admit I also believe the AWD is mandatory. It's a no brainer IMO
  • carnaughtcarnaught Posts: 2,053
    "...I have yet to take the car to the carwash without someone telling me how great it looks...."


    You have a 545i and take the car to the carwash? Ah......................hhhh..!!!!


    (There, now I feel better.)
  • footiefootie Posts: 636
    Ah, Merc1


    I believe that the market share shift that is going on between European marques and Japanese marques is permanent.


    To say that the Japanese marques "as whole still don't look, drive, feel or perform as good as European cars as a whole" is very, very personal, IMHO.


    I certainly feel that the Japanese modern, innovative styling, is far superior to the copycat, Ford Taurus, glizmobile styling in the MB lines, the ugly duck butt styling at BMW and the "we never change" except to make the grill weird styling at Audi.


    'Feeling' is too personal to broadly assign mastery to the Europeans - saying that what one group of drivers likes is the best, is baloney. That's why Cadillac sells more cars than MB in the U.S.


    'Performance' is equally irrelevant at the microscopic level that tends to get bandied about here. Sure V6's are faster and more 'responsive' in most cases than 4 bangers but not always: the same is true for V8s and sixes of all configurations.


    'Performance' is what you can use in the situations you usually encounter. If 0-60 in 4.2 seconds makes a big difference in your life, then being a junior writer at Car and Driver's road test center is great. But if you are 99% of the car driving public, it's totally irrelevant.


    Some performance could matter thought - maybe 30 to 60. But is that reported? Nah, it's more fun to talk about ticket-getting, nobody cares 0 - 60 times.


    How dumb is this. Pretty dumb. It's called 'argument framing'.

    One can always read George Lakoff's "Don't think of an Elephant".
  • jjacurajjacura Posts: 808
    I found your post to be thought provoking, Then I read it again...hmmmmmm. Yeah...Don't think of an Elephant...KNOW YOUR VALUES AND FRAME THE DEBATE!
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Ok when I said best, I sort of meant from a build quality stand point. Everything that Japan makes, from cars to cameras, are standard of the world when it comes to build precision. The phrase "made in Japan" is quite different than it was 30 or 40 years ago. The Lexus SC430 is literally a rolling text book on how to build a car to bank vault tolerance. I just wish they spent some time on making it fun to drive.. or look at.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    'The Lexus SC430 is literally a rolling text book on how to build a car to bank vault tolerance. I just wish they spent some time on making it fun to drive.


    For under $63K I can think of at leat 10 Japanese or German cars that are more fun to drive. But you have to come back from Guyana and stop drinking the Lexus Kool-Aid.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "Merc...where would you put the Corvette C6 (Nominated for World Car of the Year award) in this mix?"


    I personally love the new Corvette. Looks, power, better build and a realistic price. Nothing bad to say about the Corvette in my book.


  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Just come out and say that you hate European cars. Thats the only way any of that will make sense to anyone.


  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I know everybody in this country just gushes love for the Corvette, but I dont like the car. Granted its a much better value than the XLR, but the interior, while better, is still cheesy, the stick cant come within a country mile of a Porsche manual, (and it STILL does the skip shift that EVERYONE hates) and that off-the-shelf Malibu steering wheel is just horrid. Its never been able to match a C4S, and it still cant.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 48,832
    Yeah.. I agree with all that.. but..


    Most Vette buyers are coming from other domestic cars.. They are used to cheap, crappy interiors.. They'll never notice..;-)


    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • jjacurajjacura Posts: 808
    When I was a kid and the first Corvette rolled into town I wanted one. When I came back from serving uncle Sam in '65 I spent the summer riding in one owned by a buddy. Then I got married and the whole Corvette thing went away. I don't believe I've looked at the interior for years but when you see one on the have to look.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 48,832
    I like them... Would I buy one, if I were spending $50K on a car? No way... I'll take a stripped Boxster any day.. Or an '00 911...


    I can dream, can't I?


    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    In the 60's, Corvettes actually had nice interiors. As with most other cars, it went down hill in the '70s, and hit absolute rock bottom in the '80s. The digital dash vettes are one of the ugliest interiors ever in a car.
  • footiefootie Posts: 636
    I don't hate them, Merc. They just are increasingly irrelevant in the U.S. market - and will suffer the same fate globablly, IMHO.


    I what I hate here, is all of the canned 'framing' arguments that the sales-oriented posters use that babble on about the value of heritage or the foundation patents, or the 0-60 times, none of which applies to 99.99% of driver's day-to-day experiences or to what's being produced any more.


    I hate the baloney. It's rancid. And as long as the conversations here are largely corporate marketing drivel, I'll continue to sound off in my standard way.


    But hey, if MB starts making cars that offer better owneship value than Lexus, Infiniti, or Acura, I'd be first in line to applaud them. But my expectations are that I won't even have to snap my fingers, much less clap. The issue is process technology. "How" to make them is more important now than "what" you make, becuase if you lead in the "how", you can lead the "what". Look at Intel.


    None of the Geman car companies know how to design AND build a modern luxury car anymore. It's true across Europe. There's no substantive automobile industry left in the UK, French makers can't compete here either. Italian makers, excluding custom builders like Ferrari, have been globally irrelevant since about 1985.


    It's only a matter of time for VW/Audi. They'd be much better off focusing on China, where perhaps, they'd make up the losses in volume.
  • liyliy Posts: 47
    For Footie, above: look, feel, fit and finish do still count in the car buying experiences of some!


    See my post: liy, "Acura RL" #5859, 14 Feb 2005 10:47 pm


  • mezecamezeca Posts: 66
    I couldn't agree more!! Sure, the Japanese cars have it down for "overall" reliability, but I really feel that a lot of people put all their emphasis on that as a sole factor.

    I personally find most Japanese cars to be over-engineered(or maybe it's inability) to make a car that has a personality. Japanese cars do everything they are supposed to, but in the process something gets lost in the equation. For some, they will never notice this.

    And this is where I feel German cars really excel. They know how to make a car respond the way a car should. There is something there, you can feel it when you drive. I also like the way they sneak cool features in.

    I'm addicted to MB's tip start!!

    In short, the Germans take second in reliabilty, but first in execution. I just depends which one you favor more.

    Oh, and American cars.... the shift knob on the '05 vette looks to be from the Lumina/Malibu/Cavalier parts bin...... nuff said.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    I dunno about second in reliability, they're more like fourth, after the Japanese, Americans, and Koreans.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I'm surprised you don't like the Corvette, I really am. The XLR you know is different in purpose, though they used the Corvette as the foundation. The Corvette is just a different experience from a 911, a car which I'm also crazy about. I got to drive the new Vette at the GM Drive this past fall and it was a monster. I agree as do just about every magazine that it won't match the precision and build of a Porsche, but it does cost a lot less too.




    I understand where you're coming from really I do. I think we disagree totally because you don't allow a car to be judged on any other criteria and you're clearly in a minority in that thinking. If everyone looked at cars like you do nobody would buy anything other than Japanese, specifically Toyota and Honda. Because frankly Nissan, Mitsu, Isuzu and others from Japan aren't setting the surveys on fire either.


    For you to say that Ferrari, a company that has wiped the floor with Toyota, Honda, Mercedes, BMW and Jaguar in F1 over and over again, a company that sells every single car they build year after year, is irrelevant says a lot. Ferrari is about the most precious brand in the world to the enthusiast. Which is why I can see where you'd think it is irrelevant.


    I find that the group that post about sales the most are Toyota fanatics, not European car fans/owners. Reading the High-End board you'd think that a company's balance sheet and sales reports has something do with the way a car drives. I find that to be the most ridiculous thing I've yet read. It's also boring as all getout.


  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Its cheaper, but it also feels cheaper, so I guess you get what you pay for. What you dont get is a $50K+ interior. One car I'm very excited about is the first world market GT-R. Its quite odd, considering that there are some 8 cars or so competing for the $50K mid-size luxury sedan class, that not a single car challenges Corvette at its own price level. I'm not talking about a mid-engine Porsche with less than 300hp either. I mean a FE,RWD V-8 powered sports car. Theres absolutely nothing. Hopefully the GT-R will come in and shake up the town a bit.
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