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Luxury Performance Sedans



  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    We ALL need to back off the inflammatory comments, okay? It's fine to have some fun, but some of you folks are beyond the pale here. The insults need to stop.

    And while I'm here, let me echo nebraskaguy's recent request that folks use the Reply button. Or if you must be stubborn and not do so, at least identify the post/poster to whom you are responding. A lot of these posts recently have not made a bit of sense because no one can figure out the context.

    Thanks for your cooperation.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    This is what I have been saying.
    Criticize what I am saying about the E60 with some good, hard facts.

    But when designman and docnukem tell me to take some Jim Jones poisoned kool aid or that I am somehow crazy wearing a straight jacket pecking away at the keyboard with my nose, you bring this thread way, way down.
    Debate me over the E60 and if you can't, then don't say anything.
    I can go on plugging away about the E60 for a long, long time and I intend to.

    And finally, I must apologize to all my loyal readers out there anticipating a good, healthy, honest debate.
    I know I have kept my part of the bargain.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    OK. I thought maybe you and I went far enough back in these threads and were friendly enough to engage in banter, understand each other's humor. In any event, it is not my policy to offend. So if I have offended you I feel bad and apologize.

    Norton… woo woo.

  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    let's get back on topic, thanks.
  • A rather callous over-generalization, don't you think? BMW e60's not purchased by enthusiasts? You're kidding or flaming... or both.

    And you drive a what...?
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Thank you.
    Typing with ones's nose hasn't been easy.
    It's a miracle I've come this far.

    In case you haven't been able to tell, I do favor the E60, but I have driven all cars discussed on this thread, save the A6 and RL, and they are all fine vehicles.
    I didn't drive the RL because I didn't like the idea of a nav. system being shoved down my throat.
    I never got around to the Audi because I was running out of time and had to make a
    decision really fast.
    It really came down to the Infiniti vs the BMW.
    I drove the Infiniti 4 times and each time I just didn't feel right about it.
    The car felt really heavy.
    The Infiniti's brakes beat the BMW's, however. Those are some of the best brakes on any vehicle that's out there. That car will stop on a dime.
    Each time I drove the E60, it was like plunging into a nice warm spa.
    The driveability was just about perfect.
    If one doesn't like Bangle's styling but appreciates a great driver's car, one just has to bite the bullet and go for it.
    It would be a shame to deprive oneself of one of life's great experiences.
    The styling tends to grow on you.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Relax! Some people purposely say outrageously provocative things just to get our goat.
    I call them "hit & runners."
    Do you honestly think he will be back to answer your queries?
  • jjacurajjacura Posts: 808
    Yes...You sniffed that one out right away....they come and go quickly and stir things up for a while. I believe it was Pat who named them much earlier on. Trolls....and she warned us about not feeding the trolls.
  • I am only sure of the spirit of what you have been saying -- and I defend your right to say it; but, having said that, it seems you have been telling us how much you like your car.

    For the record, I like your car too -- or at least I can say I like the BMW family of cars overall. The fact that BMW offers a stick shift and AWD certainly puts this LPS car in a category of one as far as I know. This combination of features/content alone makes the 5 series a real contender as far as I am concerned.

    Yet, as the owner of the car that fights and fights hard to be last on the list (in terms of monthly sales in the US) or next to last, I can report to you that I really like my A6 more and more as time passes.

    Perhaps sales mean more than I think, I don't want to get in a sales numbers contest -- I will concede the BMW 5 and the Mercedes E are the sales leaders in units per month here in the US. Based on what I have read, however, this sales dichotomy seems to not be the case in the home market -- if that actually matters.

    Indeed, Audi is having its best year ever -- and it is comparing its current records to its previous records. Audi is on a roll.

    Likewise, the majority of the LPS comparison articles AND stand alone articles proclaim(ed) the Infiniti M as the new winna and champeen. We German car fans may not like this much, but for the moment the M is according to many the King of the Hill.

    Then you have the World Car of the Year award -- which did go Audi's A6. Heck, I am not certain that influences my thinking, it never did before.

    Now, today you have the Insurance Institute's safety awards and it seems that 3 Audis and 1 VW made the grade. The A6 made the grade with a "silver" rating. No BMW, this time, was so selected.

    Of course, knowing Audi they will not capitalize on the positive press such recognition should/could/ought-to generate. BMW keeps selling its cars based on the car -- Audi, and most of the other guys, seem to sell the price of entry rather than the product. BMW, to its credit, sells the car's virtues.

    But, I, as usual, digress.

    While the highest zoot BMW 5 series cars are outstanding performers with little competition (today), most of us are buying our A6's, RL's, M's, E's, STS's, and 5's with 6 cylinder engines (and two wheel drive, I'd bet given the choice.)

    So, sales figures while impressive and important are not in and of themselves proof of superiority.

    The BMW 5 and the Infiniti M's are very much alike. And, to my ear, butt and head the A6's and the M35x's are also VERY similar.

    After driving the STS, 5, A6 M, E and some other lesser cars (and after reading to excess the reviews from both sides of the Atlantic), I could only conclude that the M, the 5 and the A6 are three very closely matched cars based on content and performance.

    Further, after an admittedly unfair but not unlikely comparison that I personally participated in, the STS when equipped to the maximum with "sport" options, when compared with the 5 at the base level (530) -- gulp, is superior.

    Some may love the appearance of the 5 or the STS or the RL or the M "more" than the Lexus or the A6 -- that is certain to happen but proves nothing.

    I am hoping that we can return to talking about these cars subtle differences (for there are few substantial differences beyond the 5's combo of AWD and stick, which most folks probably eschew.)

    Please understand that it is difficult to believe that the styling alone (Mr. B's influence) is sufficient to declare the 5 is superior.

    If I subscribed to the notion that the auto magazine reviews were the oracle of all oracles, I would have to believe that the M is the best except when the A6 is declared the best by the contrarian Automobile magazine. Most magazines praise the 5, highly, but they also, this year, have said the 5's 15 minutes have passed.

    Next year, the 5 may, once again, rise to the top and the M's the RL's and the World Car may be toads.

    Today, the 5 has received virtually no wins, if any. It has not been awarded any major "global" awards, is not on the list of the most safe cars to be in during an accident, apparently CR has returned it to simply average status (but this means nadda to me) and it, in the US, outsells (usually) all the other guys.

    Yet, most of us would agree that the 5 is a fantastic performer. Some folks thinks it is the best. My guess is most folks who really are into this stuff think the 5 has some stiff competition, even if they remain convinced it is clearly superior.

    Once again, I conclude saying this is a great time to be in the market for one of these cars -- they are quite similar, styling notwithstanding, very similar in fact.

    Of course, I am often wrong, just never uncertain. :shades:
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    The information you provide in paragraph #21 is irrelevant.
    Who cares that the 5 has received "virtually no wins, if any" and none your other measures of "success." I certainly don't!

    What it has won is the admiration of the majority of the LPS buying/leasing public who are spending the bucks.
    They and I certainly don't care about any of those things you mentioned.
    They are voting with their pocketbook and that is the biggest "win."

    When you purchase an LPS, it is the P that is the most important letter.
    BMW's have never been about plush interiors or breathtaking styling.
    People who constantly criticize the interiors as dismal or sparse are TOTALLY MISSING THE POINT!
    You want an interior. Get a Lexus!
    What BMW's have always been about is providing some of the most pleasurable, exciting, responsive driving experiences in this price-range on the planet.

    And that is why BMW has some of the most fiercely loyal customers on the planet.
    I am proud to consider myself one of them.
  • drtraveldrtravel Posts: 395
    Just received their Car of the Year issue. They listed 28 cars as "contenders" and reduced it to 9 finalists listed below in alphabetical order.

    Audi A3
    BMW 3-Series
    Ford Fusion
    Honda Civic
    Hyundai Azera
    Infiniti M
    Lexus IS (the GS was only a contender)
    Mazda MX-5
    Mercedes CLS

    Their ultimate winner - the Honda Civic. If money, reliability and family's comfort were no objects, I'd buy the CLS 500 - quite an attractive car IMHO. Sadly none of the LPS are really that stunning.
  • jjacurajjacura Posts: 808
    I have respect for both of your opinions about your cars. The Audi A6 and the BMW 530 are nice cars. You both have admitted to not driving the RL. That too bad.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Only because I don't like Acura telling me I have to have a loaded car-take it or leave it.
    I would never purchase a car under that circumstance.
    However, I eventually want to drive the RL and A6.
    It will help me appreciate where owners of these cars are coming from.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    The Honda Civic has received a lot of good press lately.
    I would probably choose a Mazda3 if shopping around for a car in this category.
  • docnukemdocnukem Posts: 485
    I hope you know I wasn't trying to offend either. I know you like to stir the pot...I just like yanking pot-stirrers chains by occasionally suggesting that they are drinking from it, too.

    I am glad you like your 5. I like my M, too (but I don't say Ghosn and Hallelujah in the same breath...well, except to say that I don't).

    Guess I'm gonna have to use more emoticons. :blush:
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Nothing like irresponsible journalists trying to create news. That article was one of the biggest crocks I have ever read in the auto rags. None of the cars cited had Bangle motifs. The new MB S? Who the heck is he trying to kid?


    Many exterior current BMW styling features have been blatantly ripped off from other cars. So Bangle isn’t influencing anyone. Bangle gets “credit” because his staff took ugly to extremes.

    The term “Bangle butt” is now generic and should be sanctioned by Webster’s. However, it was ripped off from Bentley, Chrysler and Honda long ago.

    Also the flaky BMW headlamps are not original. Go look at the Aztek headlamps for living proof. You usually don't notice the Aztek lamps because they are camouflaged by all of the other action going on up there. Yep, they hitchhiked on to that baby.

    Lastly, the “Bangle butt” is a misnomer. It should be called the Hooydonk Butt or Hooydonk Dank because Adrian Von Hooydonk designed the 6 and 7, not Herr Bangle.

    The only BMW motif that is probably original and is being mildly emulated is the Bangle scar tissue aka flame surfacing.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Thanks. We all tend to get a little too enthusiastic at times.
    Time to take a step back, take a deep breath and put things into perspective.
    Makes me realize what really is truly important in this world...

    Cars! Cars! Cars! ;)
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Ouch! A strong indictment from a fellow raccoon.
    But at least you support your argument with facts.
    If I ever get to see an Aztek, I will definitely be checking the headlamps.
    Woo! Woo!
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "Many exterior current BMW styling features have been blatantly ripped off from other cars."

    The did it in such as way as to be original though. For that I give Bangle credit. If another designer could of thought of it they would have, but they didn't. In other words, BMW is original in it's rip-offs. Betcha other car manufacturers wish they could be as original as Bangle. :)
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Scathing reaction to that article - what took you so long?

    I too didn't see what they were talking about listing all those cars that were supposedly influenced by Bangle. The new S-Class has a Maybach butt, not a Bangle one. The other cars they listed may take one thing here or their, but only if you really use your imagination. If anything the new Lexus LS looks like VW Phaeton to me, especially from the front, not a BMW.

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