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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • pearlpearl Posts: 336
    Yes, it is interesting that given the HP wars, particularly involving the M vs the GS, that Nissan/Infiniti chose NOT to put the upgraded G VQ engine in the M. Latter has 275HP vs. 306 in the "new" VQ in the G (over 80% new parts, variable valve timing on both intake an exhaust cams, etc), while a new GS 350 is likely out in the Fall with more power and MUCH better gas mileage. Infiniti blew this one in my humble opinion. Not addressing the gas mileage issue is a major blunder(no six speed auto, etc).
  • dhamiltondhamilton Posts: 873
    with the current G [and I hope it isn't continued into the next model] is that the torque isn't in a very "user friendly"
    place in the power band. It is in my opinion very european [see autobahn] in it's application. To jump on the Shipo, Mark bandwagon "horsepower be damned, I want useable torque" and down low where all good things "hang"
    The 350z was the exact opposite. I heard tell a simple computer re-map/flash was the preferred elixir
  • dhamiltondhamilton Posts: 873
    stories about people owning a porsche and it being an A word. I just can't bring myself to use the full word being a Gentleman and all. I wonder if there is a special place in hell for people that chain up their dog in the yard their whole life, and people who drive a Porsche with that...well you know what I'm talking about. :mad: :sick: :P :shades:
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    I hate hearing stories about people owning a porsche and it being an A word.

    Of course its the "T" word with regards to a Porsche. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Posts: 402
    2005 Audi A6 3.2 quattro AT6 - 243 @ 3250 rpm
    2004 BMW 530i Sport - 214 @ 3500 rpm
    2005 Cadillac STS V6 - 252 @ 3200 rpm
    2005 Infiniti M35 - 270 @ 4800 rpm
    2005 Jaguar S-Type 3.0 - 216 @ 4100 rpm
    2005 Acura RL - 260 @ 5000 rpm

    2006 MB E-Class detail, just for comparison: torque of 350 Nm between 2400 and 5000 rpm
    305 Newton metres of torque – 87 percent of the maximum – is available from 1500 rpm
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    "the problem with the current G [and I hope it isn't continued into the next model] is that the torque isn't in a very "user friendly" place in the power band. It is in my opinion very european [see autobahn] in it's application. To jump on the Shipo, Mark bandwagon "horsepower be damned, I want useable torque" and down low where all good things "hang"

    I didnt notice that, at least not with an automatic G35. I found the power delivery to be very smooth from top to bottom, much unlike the Acura TL, which has no low-end torque and feels a bit sluggish off the line.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    "I hate hearing stories about people owning a porsche and it being an A word. I just can't bring myself to use the full word being a Gentleman and all. I wonder if there is a special place in hell for people that chain up their dog in the yard their whole life, and people who drive a Porsche with that...well you know what I'm talking about."

    And I don't care for stereotypes and innuendo. I wouldn't be hitchhiking onto the concept of a "gentleman" with that post.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    "Of course its the "T" word with regards to a Porsche."

    Pardon my ignorance. I assume you don't mean torque? Hmm.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    "Pardon my ignorance. I assume you don't mean torque?"

    Torque works, however, I was thinking Tiptronic. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Posts: 402
    "with an automatic G35. I found the power delivery to be very smooth from top to bottom"

    I find that with the V6 in my M35. From what I've read and from watching the tachomoter, my impression is that the car "reaches" up quickly into high rpm range to get that torque at low speeds. That is one way to achieve the effect we experience when driving the G or the M. Another way, which appears to draw more positive attention in articles I read on engines and drivetrains, is to build an engine that reaches into its peak torque range at lower rpms.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Yes, it is interesting that given the HP wars, particularly involving the M vs the GS, that Nissan/Infiniti chose NOT to put the upgraded G VQ engine in the M.

    Prediction: M sales are going to drop like a rock when the G is introduced. And the G will be a hot seller and compensate for the lost sales of the M. Unfortuantely the product-line of Infiniti is beginning to look scant. With upoming lacklustre sales of the M and hardly non-existent sales of the Q, the Infiniti brand will be carried mainly on the shoulders of the G.

    If I was an Infiniti dealer I would protest and demand the the M be given an upgraded engine at the same time as the G. Ofcourse Infiniti's H.O. will not listen.
  • rich545rich545 Posts: 386
    The Tip in my Cayenne is great when shifting manually. It's just not so great when left in full auto. I was just surprised at the different 0-60 times for the Boxter with Tip though. It's the same with the Boxter S too. The Tip is about .8 seconds slower than manual 0-60. The 911 Carrera 4S cuts that difference in half, and the Turbo cuts it to .3 according to the website. With differences that small I could see a really good Tip driver making up for them. I just wonder why 0-60 times are so different for the Boxter and Cayman, but not the 911. Is it the increased power?
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Prediction: M sales are going to drop like a rock when the G is introduced. And the G will be a hot seller and compensate for the lost sales of the M. Unfortuantely the product-line of Infiniti is beginning to look scant. With upoming lacklustre sales of the M and hardly non-existent sales of the Q, the Infiniti brand will be carried mainly on the shoulders of the G.

    I dont think thats true. The IS350 has loads more power than the GS300, but it hasn't really impacted sales of the GS. You can already get more muscle from the G than the M35, via the six-speed. The G35's original engine upgrade coincided with its mid-cycle refresh. I'm sure that when it comes time for an updated M, the new engine will be on the list.
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Posts: 402
    Prediction: M sales are going to drop like a rock when the G is introduced.

    Out-on-limb prediction. Sales of M were down in June and July, compared to last June and July (by 13.4% July to July) -- not sure when one hits "drop like a rock" percentage downturn point. On the other hand, M with new engine would be a year away, so if new G gets serious attention in showrooms, not sure why M sales would go up again, if competition is both external and internal.

    Sales for Infiniti were down 18.1 percent with 10,548 units sold as compared with last July’s 13,395 units.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    dont think thats true. The IS350 has loads more power than the GS300, but it hasn't really impacted sales of the GS.

    GS300 sales were not impacted after the IS350 intro?

    GS 300 figures: -33.7% MTD July 06 and -13.0% YTD 06

    Apparently something is impacting GS sales if not the IS350.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Apparently something is impacting GS sales if not the IS350.

    I think its just some novelty wearing off of the GS. I would put the lost sales to stiff competition from the likes of the 5 and E, not the IS's power advantage. I guess we'll see what happens when the GS350 is introduced.
  • drtraveldrtravel Posts: 395
    Prediction: M sales are going to drop like a rock when the G is introduced. And the G will be a hot seller and compensate for the lost sales of the M.

    The M is much bigger (and comfortable) car than the G. If buyers were only concerned about hp they could get the M45. Like saying that if BMW put a more powerful engine in the 3-series, the sales of the 5-series would drop like a rock. Not when you're comparing apples to oranges.
  • dhamiltondhamilton Posts: 873
    think it was to much of a stretch to put together that automatic is the word. Hopefully i haven't offended anyone with that.....automatic, automatic, automatic. OK, back to hitchhiking ;)
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    I think M sales will drop a bit, but not "like a rock". It should be able to meet its annual sales goal of 24,000 units per year, even during its 3rd and 4th years.

    The 2008 M will probably get the 306 3.5L engine, along with some updates to the exterior and interior. Or it may even get the 3.7L engine that the 2008 G Coupe is purportedly getting. At the same time, they'll have to up the hp in the M45, to compete better against the 550i, GS460 and E550. Nissan recently trademarked "FX50" (but no "M50" yet), so we'll see.

    I bet that they change the M's amber instrumentation to the predominantly white instrumentaion, similar to the 2007 G35.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Careful - no cussing in here!!

    :P
  • breldbreld Posts: 1,303
    The Tip in my Cayenne is great when shifting manually. It's just not so great when left in full auto. I was just surprised at the different 0-60 times for the Boxter with Tip though. It's the same with the Boxter S too. The Tip is about .8 seconds slower than manual 0-60. The 911 Carrera 4S cuts that difference in half, and the Turbo cuts it to .3 according to the website. With differences that small I could see a really good Tip driver making up for them. I just wonder why 0-60 times are so different for the Boxter and Cayman, but not the 911. Is it the increased power?

    I'd point out that the preference for a manual over an automatic has little, and perhaps nothing, to do with how fast you get to 60 mph. It's the experience of getting there. As you pointed out, it seems the gap in acceleration between today's automatics and manuals is decreasing quite a bit.

    My wife doesn't quite get my desire for a manual in my potential 530 purchase - "Isn't a BMW fast enough with an automatic?" "Well, yes, but...oh never mind..." :)

    2011 BMW 535xi - 2015 GTI - 2008 A3 - 2009 Ody

  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    But motor industry experts said that Ford might have to package Jaguar with its four-wheel drive marque Land-Rover to attract a big, established volume car maker

    Rumored suitor? Renault. Sounds like Ghosn's ambitions are beginning to resemble Napoleon's. A Renault-Nissan-GM-Jaguar-LandRover Alliance sounds like a beast that will be too humungous for its own good. The article is linked below.

    SOURCE: THE INDEPENDENT
    link title
  • james27james27 Posts: 433
    Not everyone is interested in power. The M is signficantly bigger than the G series. Both have adequate power. It is not unusual for the sales to drop a little prior to the newer model being introduced. I think that there was a group of people waiting for the M to come out in its initial year, and things became more predictable. The initial glowing press got more people to consider the M. Because it is no longer new, there isn't anywhere near as much press. Some out of sight, out of mind is going on here.

    The M will continue as a viable product for awhile yet.
  • rich545rich545 Posts: 386
    I'm not saying the preference for manual has anything to do with 0-60 times. The discussion is about why the Shipo's 328i with stick was able to beat the Boxter with tip that he raced from a toll booth. That kind of race has everything to do with 0-60 times in that the toll on the TZ Bridge is about 500 yards from the exit they both took. I love manual transmissions as well (in fact, my Cay S is only the second non-manual car I have ever owned) so I know about the joys of manual driving. I was just surprised that for the Boxter specifically the 0-60 times were very different for the Tip vs. manual tranny.
  • bw45sportbw45sport Posts: 151
    Statistics released by the German automobile association, ADAC, show that Mercedes passenger cars are among the most reliable vehicles in Germany

    This is an oft cited statistic. Unfortunately, it only measures one component of reliability, breakdowns. While Mercedes has suffered woeful problems related to electronics, their mechanical systems appear to be rock solid as ever, hence no breakdowns.

    Mercedes was my brand of choice for over twenty years and I never had a breakdown. However, the advanced control systems of the newer cars that rely so heavily on electronics malfunction far too often. The C-Class, "the most reliable" medium-sized car was miserable during the first year of its most recent overhaul. Over 30 percent of owners purchasing a C-Class that year reported "significant" electrical problems during the first year of ownership.

    While they deliberately avoided a "kill shot", Fifth Gear's attempt to stop an old E-Class wagon is quite entertaining and does illustrate the incredible build quality of pre-merger Benzes.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bIV_hHPAFQ&eurl=
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    The only thing that video really shows is that a Mercedes was a much simpler car back then. The physical build of a of certain Mercedes has changed dramatically for sure (first generation ML, W220 S-Class and 2001 C-Class comes to mind), so I think the fair thing to say is that they aren't all built the same anymore. Some of the newer models are physically built as robust as car can be without going overboard and paying dearly in increased weight. Also, the W124 had bascially what is about as sophisticated as truck engine (I6) compared to MB's current engines. The only thing comparable today is MB's iron-block I6 diesel engine. No car would be able to withstand water in the engine and the other things that car went through and still turn over the way cars are built today so it isn't just Mercedes-Benz. Also he electronics on the W124 are primitive by today's standards. The merger had very little or anything to do with how Benzes were built. Mercedes downgraded themselves starting in 1994 with the C-Class that came out that year. Now the ML that everyone likes to point too did come out in 1997, but it was already a done deal by the time Chrysler joined the mix. The bumpy road test that they subjected that W124 wagon through is the same one that most car makers used today to test durability, either that or they have a "shaker" machine that duplicates that kind of stress indoors.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Rumored suitor? Renault. Sounds like Ghosn's ambitions are beginning to resemble Napoleon's. A Renault-Nissan-GM-Jaguar-LandRover Alliance sounds like a beast that will be too humungous for its own good. The article is linked below.

    At least that would give Jag access to a decent V6. A Jagified VQ would probably be good for well over 300hp. They'll never reach that with a Taurus engine.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    I just wonder why 0-60 times are so different for the Boxter and Cayman, but not the 911. Is it the increased power?

    You will always hear the rationale to be the difference in torque and it’s true, but ultimately the gearing and shift points in the Porsche Tips are not optimal. There’s really no reason why most cars should have less disparity in acceleration between auto and manual. I guess Porsche couldn’t give a flying fajita because 85%-90% of their sports cars sold have manual transmissions.

    BTW in normal situations, the Boxster Tips start in 2nd gear. Not sure about the 911s. Is this the case with your Cayenne S? I had one as a loaner once but forgot to take notice. The SUV is one thing, but with the Boxster I am sure I would be quite miserable with the Tip.

    Low end torque with a nicely geared auto transmission that has optimal shift points equates to point-and-shoot acceleration. We don’t see that in Boxsters. You have to be between 4500 and 7200 RPM (redline) and precise shift points to get max acceleration. Below that the car just doesn’t move. So if someone is not familiar with the transmission and engine power curves he ain’t beating too many cars.

    Well we’re really OT now thanks to our pal Shipo and his duel at the friggin’ Tappan Zee bridge. ;-) Rich if you would like to continue I guess we should move to a Porsche thread.

    Oh, one more thing now that I’ve already risked getting sent to the spanking machine in the principal’s office by digressing. Coincidentally, the headline on the front page of today’s local paper is about shipworms eating the piers that hold up the causeway of the Tappan Zee bridge.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    I didn’t think it was to much of a stretch to put together that automatic is the word. Hopefully i haven't offended anyone with that.....automatic, automatic, automatic. OK, back to hitchhiking

    Thank you for explaining yourself. Your reference to the A word as ungentlemanly suggested another word in my mind, something less flattering than merely an “automatic” transmission. I’ll leave it at that with no offense taken. We move forward.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    In Wall Street Journal today there is a rumor that a Korean auto maker(Hyundai most likely) is interested in Jaguar.

    What better way for Hyundai to make a splash in the luxury segment, IMO. Also the high quality and reliability of the Hyundai marque may prove to be a great a benefit to Jaguar . Only problem is Hyundai will have to work overtime in developing engines and platforms that are suitable for Jaguars (good luck)
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