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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • drtraveldrtravel Posts: 395
    The Calty studio did a great job with the SC400 back in '91, and since then.. well..

    Back in 1991 I was standing in line at a movie theater and I saw this great looking car drive by... it was the brand new Lexus SC 400. So a few months later I had to buy one. They still look great although the new style SC looks worse than even Bangle's nightmares.
  • drtraveldrtravel Posts: 395
    Toyota knows that the vast majority of the auto buying public, at least in the US, are not driving enthusiasts. They have no idea how a car works, they just want things like simple controls, comfort, and reliability, which are all things Toyota does very well.

    So what does this say about all those BMW renters? Are they really that interested in the driving mechanics or status? I know there are quite a few enthusiasts who rent BMW's because of their handling, engine etc. Actually everyone who visits this forum probably falls under this category, but a majority of actual buyers do not.

    This might also explain why Audis outsell BMWs in Germany but the sales figures are not close in the US. In the performance orientated part of the world (i.e. Germany) Audis and BMWs are very close. In the status part of the world (i.e. US) BMWs outsell Audis.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    An excellent post.
    You nailed it.
    The German Status thing is very influential in decision-making for many BMW owners, and yes, so many do get the automatic transmission, and yes, quite a few would probably be just as satisfied with an Accord or Camry.

    All of us driving luxury vehicles have made a statement.

    These high-priced performance cars are basically wasted in the USA with their ridiculous speed limits with smokey waiting to pounce on those horrible law-breakers going 30mph in a 20 mph zone while someone could be getting raped down the block.
    It's a wonder anybody buys or rents BMW, Porsche or Infiniti over here.
    Pretty much a waste, except for the "look at me" status thing.
    Putting these cars through their paces like the autorags do, is just a forbidden fantasy to many of us.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    I rent BMW's because I have not found any other vehicle in its segment that I would rather be driving when a lunatic in an adjacent lane comes over to share.
    I have avoided several highway accidents due to the agility of these extraordinary vehicles.
    I feel totally safe in BMW vehicles and they have my complete confidence.
  • drtraveldrtravel Posts: 395
    How come leather seats are not STANDARD on all luxury autos??? Isn't leather a minimum requirement of luxury? And of course I get a kick out of how you can't find a Lexus without the "optional" leather seats.

    Just my two cents worth....
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Back in 1991 I was standing in line at a movie theater and I saw this great looking car drive by... it was the brand new Lexus SC 400. So a few months later I had to buy one. They still look great although the new style SC looks worse than even Bangle's nightmares.

    I remember when I first drove the original SC being extremely impressed by how modern and intuitive its controls were. The inside didn't look dated even when it went out of production in 2000. The inside of the S class coupe and 850i, on the other hand, looks straight out of the '80s.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    I completely disagree.

    I could not care less what logo is on my hood. It's how the car drives and whether it suits my family needs that counts. That is why I chose a BMW530xi.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    I wasn't referring to you, Dewey, or any typical Edmunds posters who are enthusiasts and truly love how their vehicles drive.

    I was profiling the "typical" BMW driver, who wouldn't think of ordering mt and sport package-who is more into comfort through status and would probably be just as happy driving an Accord or Camry.

    I'm with you. As long as BMW's are the best-performing in their segment, I'm hooked, even though I enjoy testing other vehicles.

    Can't wait to drive the twin-turbo 335i next month!
  • james27james27 Posts: 433
    Havne't read all of the responses, so this may have been answered already...check out crutchfield.com . They probably can supply a variety of changers that will fit with any adapter cables, if required.
  • james27james27 Posts: 433
    Try to sit in the seat of a car basking in the sun in Phoenix all day covered in leather...cloth has its advantages.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Can't wait to drive the twin-turbo 335i next month!

    Me too.
  • Obviously I could care less -- since I drive an Audi, since they are the Rodney Dangerfield of the LPS world, here in Vaspucciland.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Dont worry when Audi's new MLP platform arrives, Rodney Dangerfield will magically transform into a Schumacher, even in Vaspucciland. ;)

    Although we do know that at least globally Audi is giving BMW some heat even without the MLP platform.
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,578
    “Can't wait to drive the twin-turbo 335i next month!”

    Me 3.
    I am scheduled to attend a “we’ll pay for the tires & gas, you drive it hard” BMW 335i Coupe intro event here near Atlanta a week from Sunday.

    http://www.automobilemag.com/features/news/0609_2007_bmw_335i_dynamometer/

    - Ray
    Considering the 335i Sedan to be qualified for this Forum – as well as the 5 Series . . .
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Wow,

    For a few grand more than a 330i you get this:

    SOURCE: Automobile Magazine Sept. 2006
    So in an all-out drag race, the 335i comes close, but can’t quite match the M3’s blistering acceleration. Those numbers, though, only tell half the story. Have a look at the top-gear acceleration figures. In sixth gear, the M3 needs 14.7 seconds to get from 30 to 70 mph – but the 335i does it in only 12.5.

    That, my friends, is the beauty of this engine. At full bore, it’s as fast as an M3. But at moderate engine speeds, it’s even faster. What a great way to keep us all interested until the next M3 comes along.


    AMAZING!
  • Don't get me wrong, the 335 is going to be a doozy, but..."In sixth gear, the M3 needs 14.7 seconds to get from 30 to 70 mph – but the 335i does it in only 12.5"...that has to be the most bizzare acceleration test I have ever heard of. 30 to 70 in sixth gear? Who does that?
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Who does that? Depends upon what kind of traffic you're driving in. Can't say that I've ever done it, can't say that I haven't.

    Stepping away from the reason for reporting that metric for a moment, it does seem to be a good indicator of lower end torque. So, while I'm not likely to employ my car in that manner so that I can brag about being able to do 30-70 in sixth in 12.5 seconds, I would very much enjoy the plentiful supply of low end torque in other situations (and probably brag on that instead). ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Wow! I can hardly wait. Should be a blast!
  • I think you missed my point. Who would start at 30 mph in 6th gear? Second or third, maybe. Fourth if you want a very slow, smooth start. But 6th? Giving up a lotta torque there. Maybe the article meant to say from a lower gear, I don't know.

    Low end torque would be non-existant starting from 30 in 6th gear.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    "I think you missed my point. Who would start at 30 mph in 6th gear? Second or third, maybe. Fourth if you want a very slow, smooth start. But 6th?"

    No, I got your point, however when I responded I failed to mention that I've yet to have a 6-Speed and that my "Top Gear" driving has all been in 3rd, 4th or 5th (depending upon the car). So, what I should have said was:
    "Who does that? Depends upon what kind of traffic you're driving in. Can't say that I've ever done it in top gear, can't say that I haven't."

    Thinking about this further, I rather doubt that I'd operate a car in that fashion, however, I suppose anything is possible.

    "Low end torque would be non-existant starting from 30 in 6th gear."

    With two small turbo chargers on tap, it might could well not be as low as one might think.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Posts: 402
    James Healey, USA Today Car Critic, on German cars (he doesn't like them) and Jaguars (he's smitten):

    On German cars: "No matter how well done the rest of the car is — and the new A6 has some sweetheart potential — MMI-type experiences are another signal that German brands should be placed on suicide watch… It's systems such as iDrive, MMI and Mercedes' Comand that can cause the problems and dissatisfaction that lead to low scores on quality surveys, though MMI is less complicated than the others and Audi has tried to make many functions available without toggling through a thicket."

    But he likes the Jaguar XK, so he writes: " Is a good-looking, less-complicated alternative to the BMW 6 Series for a similar price… Fancy features worked well and were easier to use than expected." What does he mean by "easier to use than expected? "Jag says it tried not to bury anything more than four layers deep in a menu. Most were much more accessible than that." Anything four layers deep on a German car sends this guy over the edge. But with Jag, he repeatedly reports to readers that he asked the company to explain why they do or don't have some feature and gives Jag's justification.

    Brand power works with professional car critics too and this case shows the variance among individuals. Although Business Week shows that, on average, certain brand images carry a positive valence in the collective consciousness of consumers, it's also the case that certain brand images find a niche in specific individuals and for that loved object they will tolerate what they hate in a product where the brand image carries no such positive valence for them.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    PurpleM46 & Shipo,

    it almost appears that the folks at Automobile Magazine went out of their way in finding the right gear/mileage range that confirmed their hypothesis that the 335i performs better than a M3.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    it almost appears that the folks at Automobile Magazine went out of their way in finding the right gear/mileage range that confirmed their hypothesis that the 335i performs better than a M3.

    Doesn't C&D do top gear acceleration tests as well? I think its just a different way to measure engine power. Top Gear put a Z06 in 6th and then drove from a standstill to something like 175mph+. It wasnt supposed to be a realistic test, just to show what the engine can do.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    That, my friends, is the beauty of this engine. At full bore, it’s as fast as an M3. But at moderate engine speeds, it’s even faster

    True but after reading the conclusion above it does sound like a 335i is superior to a M3 in terms of realistic driving.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Dewey writes:
    SOURCE: Automobile Magazine Sept. 2006
    So in an all-out drag race, the 335i comes close, but can’t quite match the M3’s blistering acceleration. Those numbers, though, only tell half the story. Have a look at the top-gear acceleration figures. In sixth gear, the M3 needs 14.7 seconds to get from 30 to 70 mph – but the 335i does it in only 12.5.


    Purplem46 writes:
    "In sixth gear, the M3 needs 14.7 seconds to get from 30 to 70 mph – but the 335i does it in only 12.5"...that has to be the most bizzare acceleration test I have ever heard of. 30 to 70 in sixth gear? Who does that?

    Low end torque would be non-existant starting from 30 in 6th gear.


    Well, yes and no. The torque doesn’t get to the wheels because of gearing but it still exists at the engine. That test is a good demonstration of pure engine torque much in the manner that the weight of a person on a seesaw becomes less effective as he approaches the fulcrum. The closer you get to the fulcrum, the more weight that is needed to lift the person on the other end. The higher the gearing in a car, the more torque that is needed to accelerate it.

    335i torque = 300 lb-ft at 1400-5000 rpm
    E46 M3 torque = 262 lb-ft at 4900 rpm

    (Automobile mag erroneously reports the M3 torque at 202)
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    James Healey, USA Today Car Critic, on German cars (he doesn't like them) and Jaguars (he's smitten):

    The biased views of car critics proliferate within the auto sections of many a newspaper and throughout the auto rags.

    More typically we see the admiration for the German marques and especially the bias towards the Japanese marques.

    A British bias, while still a bias, is almost always a welcome and much-deserved relief, IMO.

    Jaguar's last generation of all-aluminum XJ and XK vehicles deserve even more positive publicity than they get, IMO. They are gorgeous, very fairly priced, and have consistently done exceptionally well in JD Powers surveys . . . indicating that the quality is within a stone's throw of Lexus.

    That's quite an accomplishment, IMO.

    TagMan
  • Just got the email from BMW on the new 3.0si X3 -- HP has been cranked a smidge: 260 from 255. Torque, too, is up 11 (to 225 @ 2.5K RPM)-- both 6spd man and auto (no charge) are offered.

    I dunno if +5 HP over the most recent iteration of the 3.0 (@ 255) is enough here in LPS-land. But it is +35HP over the last gen 3.0 @ 225. I'd say the Germans (Audi, BMW and Mercedes and even VW) will be able to keep up with the Japanese.

    I, for one, would like to see a new German "normal" car (not M, not S, not RS, not AMG, i.e.) be brought to market with a HP advantage over the competition (across the board.)

    I would almost swear that Audi and BMW have an off site meeting and they agree: "we'll bring ours to market with 255HP, how about you? Uh, OK, we'll bring ours to market with the same HP!" "Thanks Hans." "You welcome Klaus."

    Now, here we go the normally aspirated 3.0 from BMW last year was 255HP as was the Audi "3.2" (really 3.1+, but who's counting?)

    Meanwhile back in Munich, BMW was blowing on the 3.0 to add 45HP, Audi was dinking around with an unblown 3.6L at 280HP and was scurrying hither and yon to convert all the family to FSI and adding a turbo here and there to the RS cousins.

    Then Audi announces an A5 coupe and wham, BMW actually gets a 3 series coupe with a blown 3.0 not only announced but ooot and abooot with 300HP.

    God only knows what AMG has in the wings. But the Audi buzz is that the light bi-turbo treatment on the 3.2FSI has "no problemo" cranking out 300HP and about 343 pound feet at some really low RPM's.

    What a great time it is to be alive if acceleration without the V8 penalty presses your "start" button.

    The Audi 2.0TFSI is supposed good for 350 civilized horses.

    Holy horsepower Batman!

    I wonder what the new turbo i6 from BMW would feel like in an X3. AWD, steel + sex perhaps?

    Although this is about the X3, there is a bit herein on the new 3.0si engine, which one can only presume will be put into the 5 series, uh, SOON!

    Klik Here for Info on BMW 3.0si -- and the newly refreshed X3
  • Absolutely, no argument there. I think People are going to be more focused that the 335 is now just a bit faster than competitors Lexus IS350 and the G35 298hp coupe, with 5.3 to 5.5 second zero to sixty sprints. They've brought performance up substantially on the 3 series, only a half second slower than M3's 4.8 zero to sixty mark. The low end torque makes the engine a very smooth accelerating car, with passing abilities much improved due to that increased torque. I think the magazine quote was just a little misleading in comparing it to an M3. Torque is only one of several measures of performance. Rev range, suspension, traction, and horsepower figure in as well.

    A six cylinder Tacoma pickup has more torque than an M3 as well, but it's just not as fast.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Absolutely, no argument there. I think People are going to be more focused that the 335 is now just a bit faster than competitors Lexus IS350 and the G35 298hp coupe, with 5.3 to 5.5 second zero to sixty sprints.

    The new G coupe could be faster still, perhaps faster than the 335. I don't know if the 3.7L rumors are true, but even with 3.5, it should still be able to take 0-60 sprints down to the near 5 second flat mark.
  • dhamiltondhamilton Posts: 873
    my place for a BMW 335 driving event in Houston [Reliant stadium] on sept 23. Looking forward to it, and will give impressions as soon as I get home. For those interested, I think they are doing these at various points across the country. Sorry for the off topic post Pat... :blush:
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