Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Luxury Performance Sedans

1273274276278279335

Comments

  • sfcharliesfcharlie Posts: 402
    The Japanese are like us, they want imports. No Lincoln or Cadillac is as impressive to (most) Americans than a Mercedes or BMW. The same is true in Japan, only its Lexus stuck being the "domestic choice"."

    The Germans, then, it would appear, are not like us, in wanting imports.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The Germans, then, it would appear, are not like us, in wanting imports.

    Its not just Germany, but most of western Europe. I think some of it has to do with protectionist import tariffs, (a 350Z in the UK is the equivalent of $50K+) but I also think that Europeans generally like to drive European cars. Germany invented the car, its hard to compete with that.
  • I think, too, that it has something to do with the paucity of diesel offerings from elsewhere.

    In Europe, in Germany, 70% of the LPS cars are diesel. Audi sells 50% diesel there, in fact.

    Overall the numbers for diesel in Europe are ~ 1 in 3. Where are they gonna import from that can give them what they want, at this time?
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Well who in theor right mind wouldn't want a Audi diesel ? :surprise: It only gets 35 mpg hwy and has enough torque to fimly implant your backside in your seat. ;)

    Rocky
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Posts: 402
    Rocky, you, I believe, just wrote in the German car-enthusiast dialect :)

    Charlie
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Well I'm a big fan of the 4,2 V-8 diesel. I've read alot of good reviews and as Angus McKenzie said from Motor Trend it might be the best diesel engine in the world. So yeah I like that kind of German engineering, even though I'd never be able to afford such a luxury. ;)

    Rocky
  • I got behind the wheel (and did not drive it) of a S6. It was, as I recall, $77K. It had the technology package and some other single options, but it was well equipped.

    While talking with my long time sales rep he got a call that says his first sold S8 will be in Oct 16. MSRP $122K.

    The S8 is the SWB version of the A8 chassis, yes?

    The engine is the same as is in the S6 (a few HP different.)

    The S8 had the $7000 B&O sound system and that counts for something, I guess.

    My "were I to be granted one wish" for a free Audi car WAS an S8. Perhaps if it were free, that wish would stand.

    But, from the behind the wheel perch of an S6, I just wonder what extras would be gained in the S8 -- performance? Do Dads?

    The S6 may be, at this moment, the ultimate LPS car.

    The M5, I can only assume, will be above that and remain at the top of the heap until or unless an RS6 comes out and then, who knows.

    Mercedes AMG must have something that would be competitive, what, pray tell is it?

    Do any of the Japanese brands offer the jump to ludicrous speed (Dark Helmet?) :confuse:
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Posts: 2,625
    Funny, Mark. You don't look Druish... Underrated flick, imo. Nice referenece. :shades:

    '13 Jaguar XF, '11 BMW 535xi, '02 Lexus RX300

  • You are correct, I am not Druish, but I am half-man, half-dog, I'm a MOG, I'm my own best friend! :surprise:
  • breldbreld Posts: 1,306
    Well, I'm just catching up on all the recent posts, including the ramblings on the woes of the stick shift.

    My 2007 530xi 6 speed manual is due to arrive in about two weeks. Sounds like I better hold onto it for my 3 year old to drive when he turns 16, if there are any hopes of him learning what will be an "ancient art."

    It does seem that most of the traditional "arguments" for a stick, such as increased control, are losing ground. But, I think one poster summed it up best, when he/she essentially stated that it's simply "more fun." I simply enjoy driving my TSX around town, including in heavy traffic. It's certainly not a particularly fast car, regardless of transmission, but the actual exercise of manually shifting the gears makes the experience so much more engaging.

    2011 BMW 535xi - 2015 GTI - 2008 A3 - 2009 Ody

  • Amazingly different ways of thinking about what makes a car terrific or recommendable...

    [German] Global Insight analysts Phillip Rosengarten and Christopher Stuermer have written a new book titled "Premium Power, The Secret Of Success Of Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Porsche And Audi." In it, they describe how "premium" brands of BMW, Porsche, Audi, Mercedes-Benz, Range Rover, and Volvo are superior to "mere luxury cars" from Lexus, Infiniti, Cadillac, Jaguar, and Rolls Royce, because they continuously set new high standards. Rosengarten calls Lexus' European sales of about 20,000 cars a year "pitiful." He also says a brand's history is important to prestige. "Without heritage, which means a glorious history and brand tradition, it will not be easy to establish a successful luxury brand in Europe, not to mention establish a premium brand. All the more so as Lexus has many American luxury-style elements with its design orientation geared towards other premium brands instead of creating its own unique elements, and it cannot showcase any important innovations," he said."

    Now an excerpt from Consumer Reports' comparative assessment of Lexus IS 250, BMW 325i, Audi A4, Cadillac CTS, MB C230, and Saab 9-3: Having noted good things about the Lexus IS 250 --refinement, interior craftsmanship, easy-to-use controls, and something called "competent performance" -- CR adds that "the IS has "a fidgety ride and the steering lacks feel, making it less fun to drive than some peers. The ride is stiff and jittery [yet, somehow, "competent"]. The IS 250 is one of three of these cars CR recommends to consumers (along with the Audi A4 and the Cadillac CTS). It does not recommend the BMW 325i which it describes as "more fun to drive than the IS 250. It's taut and agile (CR says the IS 250 is not agile), with a smooth engine and a responsive transmission." But they don't recommend it.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,262
    . . .what extras would be gained in the S8 -- performance? Do Dads?

    What else is there for the people in this segment, most of whom lease?

    I keep cars for 5-10 years and have been told from time to time that the reason others lease (among others) is to be in possession of the "latest & greatest." That would be do-dads where I come from. The computer or digital camera (or audio equipment) I bought four years ago still does just what I bought it for then. Newer stuff does more things & probably costs less. Sunk cost to me -- I don't care.

    The latest & greatest is (are?) not my thing, but seem(s) to be important to many others.
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Posts: 402
    "I keep cars for 5-10 years"

    I've done that sometimes and, at other times leased for two or three years. I'm always happy to find a comment like this of yours, keeping that sensibility alive in this conversation.

    What car do drive now and how many years into are you?
  • warthogwarthog Posts: 216
    As we all know, with CR reliability trumps all. I think they would recommend a Model T over a modern BMW, or MB, or Lexus for that matter, if the ancient Ford somehow came out more "reliable" in their estimation.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Do any of the Japanese brands offer the jump to ludicrous speed (Dark Helmet?)

    Not in the LPS arena, no. Ultimate performance to a Japanese company is not "let's take one of our 4,000lb. luxury cars, give it a suspension overhaul, and insert a rocket motor." Thats a very German idea.

    Here's the issues: 1. The current M is the first Japanese luxury sedan (at least in our market) that can even handle the "go faster" treatment. The GS400 would've been a very dangerous car with 400+hp on tap.

    2. Japan doesn't really have any rocket engines, at least not in the "luxury rocket" sense. The Lexus 4.6 is the biggest, most powerful Japanese V8 ever available in the US. There may be bigger engines in the JD market, but I don't know of any in mass production.

    Japan's UHP cars have always been very small and lightweight, with small displacement 4 and 6 cylinder engines, and massive turbocharging. This method allowed cars like the Supra TT and GT-R to have *wink wink* 276hp. Since Japanese automakers are no longer constrained by the 276hp limitation, the door is open for big, German style monsters. The Lexus GT V8 engine is probably going to show up in the IS, and the G or M will probably get the GT-R's twin turbo 6.

    I assume the next TL is going to have SH-AWD, as Acura seems to want to offer that across their entire line. Without the current car's torque steer issues, Acura could easily turbocharge the Type S' 3.5L, and make a 350hp+ TL Type R.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    As we all know, with CR reliability trumps all. I think they would recommend a Model T over a modern BMW, or MB, or Lexus for that matter, if the ancient Ford somehow came out more "reliable" in their estimation.

    Thats not really true. They have their reliability ratings, and then the overall rating, which covers everything else about the car. They wont recommend cars that score "below average" in reliability, but that doesn't automatically mean that the most reliable cars get the best overall scores. Look at the E class vs. the GS. They rate the E 3rd from the top in the luxury category, despite it getting the full black dot for reliability. The GS has perfect reliability scores, but its overall rank is way down at the bottom.
  • Hi Folks,
    I'm trying to decide between a 525xi and 530xi (automatic transmission). I like the extra kick of the 530 but I don't like it enough to tolerate a gas mileage plummet associated with the additional horsepower. Does anyone know if/how much gas mileage would decrease with the larger engine. I know the EPA says it's the same but I've heard you can't always trust their estimates.
    Thanks.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    I know the EPA says it's the same but I've heard you can't always trust their estimates.

    You're correct, you cannot trust the EPA. My own experience (and that of many other BMW drivers) is that the 530i/xi is capable of as good as, or better mileage than the 525i/xi siblings, and both engines can easily beat the EPA numbers.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    I assume the next TL is going to have SH-AWD, as Acura seems to want to offer that across their entire line. Without the current car's torque steer issues, Acura could easily turbocharge the Type S' 3.5L, and make a 350hp+ TL Type R.

    That's the rumor I've heard for the 09' TL. If that is true, my god us consumers will have even more difficult of a time ahead of us on choosing. :D

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
  • The 525xi with a manual transmission MIGHT give you "almost" the performance of the 530xi auto.

    The two cars, here, use the same size engine.

    The 530xi, according to sources OTHER than the EPA, apparently, is more efficient.

    If you are going with the auto trans (and you KNOW I am torn on that from a "fun" vs "control" perspective) the 530xi certainly seems to be the better choice (assuming you are looking at this from an MPG perspective -- which, if I may, seems a bit odd considering the MSRP differences you would have to overcome if buying the lowest TCO was one of your top considerations.)

    Go with the 530xi. OR, wait for the almost certain to be sold: 528xi (230HP)or 535xi (turbo @ 300HP with improved MPG's.)
  • The latest and greatest are, for me, often draws. With a virtually all optioned 2005 A6, there is nothing in a 2007 clone of my A6 that would make it worth extra money -- no, not even the back up camera and the color trip computer (mine is only red and black.)

    My question, now that I have configured both an S6 and S8 and actually sat in an S6 is "where is the extra $25 to $35 thousand dollars" the S8 will seem to command?

    Is it size? Is it features (other than the B&O sound system?)

    Were I to acquire one of these cars, it would seem that you are correct -- and, as always, I appreciate the somewhat contrarian view (since, as you pointed out, most of the LPS cars are leased -- but often they are less expensive to do so due to generous sub-venting programs.)

    The depreciation hit on an S8 will be "breathtaking" I am sure.

    I just put new shoes on my 25,000 mile young A6. Nothing is not doing what I want, nothing has broken (other than the initial bout of bad pushbutton starters) -- and other than my none too secret desire for a diesel, I can see an argument for KEEPING this car.

    Another sub vented lease on another German (and possibly non - German) car may change my mind. But, now at 55, I am much less likely to feel the need for the new wheels in 18 months.

    But a new product COULD certainly change that attitude.

    The question still stands, what makes up the 5 figure difference in the two siblings?
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Without the current car's torque steer issues, Acura could easily turbocharge the Type S' 3.5L, and make a 350hp+ TL Type R.

    Torque steer seems to be a key complaint about the FWD TL. All powerful FWD cars need to be equipped with a good torque steer management system. Honda engineers have not yet figured out how to make a great torque steer management system that can channel all the power to the road through a limited slip differential.

    Before the new MazdaSpeed3 was introduced I thought it would be AWD. But I was quite surprised to hear that the 263Hp/280lb-ft torque MazdaSpeed3 would be avaiallble only in FWD. What amazed me even more were the positive Mazda3Speed reviews that did not even mention torque steer as an issue.

    Obviously Mazda engineers have designed a superior torque steer management system that Honda/Acura lacks.
  • They don't have "uber-power" now, but they will. The 2008 Nissan GT-R "Skyline" will be the first true Japanese super performance/Luxo car to date (available in the US). Lexus will follow in the not to distant future (LFA 10 cylinder).

    I love the horsepower wars. I just wish there was somewhere to drive them as they were intended to be driven, safely/legally. I say we lobby for a new, U.S. Autobahn.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I'm trying to decide between a 525xi and 530xi (automatic transmission). I like the extra kick of the 530 but I don't like it enough to tolerate a gas mileage plummet associated with the additional horsepower. Does anyone know if/how much gas mileage would decrease with the larger engine. I know the EPA says it's the same but I've heard you can't always trust their estimates.
    Thanks.


    Get the 530xi. They will be close enough for it not to matter. You should also consider that you'll have to keep the 525xi "on the boil" for things like passing, merging, etc. Full throttle is not great for mpg. With the 530xi you could take a more relaxed approach, and ultimately save gas. Besides, spending an extra few dollars on gas is an easy thing to get over. One less trip to Starbucks a week. Suffering from "I should've gotten the bigger engine" syndrome, however, is not.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I just put new shoes on my 25,000 mile young A6. Nothing is not doing what I want, nothing has broken (other than the initial bout of bad pushbutton starters) -- and other than my none too secret desire for a diesel, I can see an argument for KEEPING this car.

    What about refresh time, '08? I assume you're going to want some of that.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    They don't have "uber-power" now, but they will. The 2008 Nissan GT-R "Skyline" will be the first true Japanese super performance/Luxo car to date (available in the US). Lexus will follow in the not to distant future (LFA 10 cylinder).

    I'm not sure how much "luxo" the GT-R will have. Previous GT-R's have been all business on the inside. Then again, the same could be said about 911s previous to the 996 generation or so.
  • re the GTR: I'm assuming about as "luxo" as a BMW M car. Which like you say, is on the sparse side, with the exception of gadgetry.
  • That has been a recurring theme for me -- the '05 - '07 A6's (for instance) are very similar. My all optioned '05 does not have a backup camera.

    Most of the '07's don't either, but it can be had.

    A new '07 A6 configured as mine is would be almost impossible to pick out from a lot full of 05's - 07's.

    New functions, features, safety, or whatever haven't come as quickly this cycle.

    My previous Audis, on the other hand, did seem to come with more and more and more even when I would get them every other MY.

    I was pumping gas the other day and a person came up to me and said how do you like your A6 -- he thought mine was either an '06 or '07, and he had just ordered an '07.

    When I told him mine was an '05 he said, "it looks brand new."

    It drives that way too.

    Sure an '08 B8 A4 or Whatever A6 or BMW or Infiniti M35X or whatever it is called then, may be tempting -- if it brings something new to the table other than a new style.

    I've come to the conclusion that only the very well informed even KNOW what MY they are looking at.

    I try to keep up and it is difficult.

    Can you really tell a 2005.5 A4 from an '07 A4, etc?

    I look at the BMW's and have sometimes the same issues -- without a guidebook, I can't tell if it is a 2006 5 or a 2007 -- heck, I am not even sure if it might not be a 2005.

    Only when the major body style comes along do I know for sure.

    As I find myself aging, I find (somewhat in contradiction to my past behavior) some genuine fondness for my car even with 25K miles on it.

    I have previously written about "the itch."

    I am not saying I will not "itch again" -- I am noting a satisfaction with this vehicle that is a pleasant surprise.

    Now that I have my new tires, I can't wait to drive it next.

    Just like it was when it was at 0 miles.

    This may pass.

    This may pass.

    :confuse:
  • According to Road and Track ... "Late in 2009 Audi will launch a 4-door coupe similar to the Mercedes CLS. It will use an all-new Modular Longitudinal Platform (MLP) that will eventually be used on all new Audis from A4 upward...Engine choices will include a new V-6 and a V-8, power ranging from 300-500 bhp (the latter being the S7 version) and prices ranging from $50,000-$100,000."

    Just to make it harder for the itch to pass ;)
Sign In or Register to comment.