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Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • I drove an Audi A6 2.7T for 6 years/100,000 miles and will say the car was "tired" at the end of my ownership.The turbos needed replacing, the valve covers were leaking, etc.

    Maybe all LPS cars, and all cars in general are "tired" and worn out by 100,000 miles? Or was it just my Audi?
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Maybe all LPS cars, and all cars in general are "tired" and worn out by 100,000 miles? Or was it just my Audi?

    I don't think German luxury cars are built to last longer than 100K miles without major life support. Any Legend, Q, or LS though should handle 100K miles in its sleep. Unfortunately Acuras don't seem to be built nearly as well as they used to be. Infinitis I'm not sure about, but the G and M shouldn't have any problems well past 100K miles. I'm just not sure they can do 300K like Q45s of old. My LS400 was still going strong at 150K miles. I got tired of it long before it got "tired" of life.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    shipo,

    I don't troll I have a different viewpoint than alot of other people. If I trolled I would never come back.

    I just wanted some different opinions is all and wasn't trying to start a arguement.... :)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    qbrozen,

    Thank-you pal. I don't drop bombs without defending my view points. I know I pour gas on myself sometimes and should keep my mouth shut. I brought up the S80 vs. A8 & LS to y'all....I wondered if y'all think I'm dumb/wrong for thinking the S80 would/could be cross shopped by either of them. If I'm wrong, hey I'm wrong. I think very highly of the new S80 V8 AWD and even though it costs $30k less I think the new platform make it a cheaper alternative to the A8 and LS, without sacrificing quality and driving experience. I'm trying to understand/learn what buyers in this segment think.

    Just my $0.02 :)

    thanx,

    Rocky
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,289
    while I'm not a buyer in this segment, I don't think the S80 would be cross-shopped to those cars. I believe folks looking to spend $80k will spend $80k.

    Plus, maybe I'm wrong here, but I believe the S80 is smaller inside than the others. At least a tighter backseat. I'm not sure of the actual specs of the '07 model, however.

    '13 Stang GT; '86 Benz 300E; '98 Volvo S70; '12 Leaf; '14 Town&Country

  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Okay, fair enough. I just wanted some different opinions is all. I also agree the S80 is a lil' smaller over all. It's about the same size as a STS-DTS ? The A8 is the size of the S-Class. Isn't the LS about the same size as the S80 ?

    Rocky
  • J. D. Power or somebody should take a poll of 100,000 mile owners of all vehicles and ask if they would buy that vehicle again based on reliability.

    I'm not bashing the venerable Audi brand, it is just that after 6 +years of LPS ownership, I would have to agree that the Audi appears to be an ideal lease vehicle, but certainly not a model that would be suitable for long term ownership.

    Anybody out there that has driven an individual Audi for 100,000 relatively care-free miles?
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I brought up the S80 vs. A8 & LS to y'all....I wondered if y'all think I'm dumb/wrong for thinking the S80 would/could be cross shopped by either of them.

    The S80 is firmly in the mid-lux class, its competition is the cars on this board. From Lexus and Audi, that would be the GS and A6. The A8 and LS are in the 200" full-size class, the S80 isnt that big.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,289
    I'm not positive about the LS. I was under the impression it was A8 size, which I know to be cavernous.

    As the post above mine mentions, I think the GS is more S80 size.

    As it stands, unfortunately, volvo is very much like Acura in the sizing department. Similar to comparing the RL to the TL, the S80 and S60 aren't that far apart. (and, likewise for the S40/60 and TL/TSX.) Its not the noticeable jump in size you see with something like the Benz S-class, Bimmer 7-series, or A8.

    I would like to see volvo come out with a large sedan. Unfortunately, however, they'd have to call it the S100. ;)
    and that just don't have a good ring to it.

    They DID, IIRC, have an S80 Executive, or some such name, that added a couple of inches. I'm not sure of when exactly that was produced, in what numbers, or the added cost, however. But maybe they'll do that again with the new design??

    '13 Stang GT; '86 Benz 300E; '98 Volvo S70; '12 Leaf; '14 Town&Country

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    But maybe they'll do that again with the new design??

    Hard to say. They could bring back the short-lived S90 tag, rather than S100, which I agree is a bad name. I don't see it happening any time soon though, Volvo has too many other cars that need redesigns or refreshes. I also don't think there's any demand for a big Volvo in the first place. They already have one loss-making niche vehicle in their lineup.
  • The Volvo S80 is Volvo's LPS entry as far as I can tell. It may not rise to the L or the P of the LPS sedans chewed about on this forum. At worst it is a "near"-LPS car.

    The newest version with a V8, AWD and most of the features and creature comforts afforded LPS owners probably is a "contender."

    But, despite its V8, et al, it probably would not be included in many Car & Driver, Motor Trend, Road & Track, Automobile comparo's.

    And it certainly would not be included in the Audi, BMW, Mercedes flagship comparisons (such as the one in the new C&D where the Mercedes was #1, Audi #2 (one point shy) and three other imports bringing up the bottom -- with the new Large Lexus solidly in 5th place (out of 5).

    I would probably be happy to take an S80 for a test drive and who knows, I may be so impressed (if it is priced "right") that I might even consider one -- somehow, I doubt it (yea, that is a pre-conception.)

    There is no Volvo I know of that would "legitimately" be compared by a shopper looking at a A8L or BMW 7 by any stretch of the imagination.

    The Phaeton may it R.I.P., probably was a "legitimate" lux, flagship car -- apparently coming from VW was one of its worst sins, tho. :surprise:

    Now if we're going to get nuts here, I looked at the new C&D with its "10 Best" cars and saw (again) the Chrysler 300 listed as "the best sedan money can buy" (or something almost as powerful.) And, when I first saw the 300C tested on the Speed Channel, it was compared (by the host) favorably to both the BMW 7 and Audi A8 cars -- in terms of its size and driving dynamics.

    At the time, I thought that was over the top -- come to think of it, I still do. Does the 300C merit an honorable mention or even "wannabe" mention in the annals of LPS-dom? Most of us would say, "probably not," would be my guess.

    This "Premium" Saloon Class (LPS as we are wont to call it) is tough to break into. It seems to me that Audi, Saab and Volvo (and maybe Acura) tried to break in for several years. The 2005 models seemed to have accomplished that for Acura and Audi. Volvo is debatable and Saab, well, you know. :shades:
  • cstiles, I think that's a great observation. What it kicks off in my thinking are two things.

    One, when I read a book or an article about "classic cars," a vicarious pleasure is the diversity of auto-desire. Consumers seemed to revel in the many different styles, models, experiments in automotive design and engineering. By comparison, we appear to have entered a chapter in automotive history in the U.S. where multiple forces conspire to make the image of "desirable car" homogeneous in the minds of a majority of consumers.

    Two, when BMW introduced the 2002 forerunner of the 3-series in the 1960s, Car and Driver, in particular, really got it. By "it" I mean the excitement of the appearance of a new category of car, not nearly as fast in a straight line as the muscle cars that were generating much of the excitement in those days, but able to provide a type of driving pleasure to a married couple with kids, previously not seen in a sedan. It didn't matter that it wasn't going to go from zero to 60 as fast as a Dodge Hemi or a GTO. There were multiple ways for a car to be great.

    Too much now of tsk, tsk, what a shame for all the German cars that, for example, the Infiniti cars accelerate faster; "game over" as one, to me, silly auto-mag article tried to collapse the whole car experience. And, similarly, for most of us here, how much does it matter which $75-$90K car accelerates fastest? Is there even any relationship between some group of editors assessment of the S6 versus the M5 versus the MB E63 and the pleasure any one of us might be deriving (and talking about on this forum) from driving one of the "regular" versions of those cars in our everyday lives?
  • Well, for a car that no one on this list has even seen, much less driven, those are pretty strong words. I would guess that three years ago much the same could have been said about the upcoming Infiniti M and there is pretty strong evidence that the M is more than a "contender."

    How about waiting until the car has been driven by real people for a few months and see whether the car mags are actually going to include it in a comparo with any of the favorites in this neighborhood?

    On paper it is certainly a contender. By price it is a contender. Will it drive like one? We'll see soon enough.
  • cstilescstiles Posts: 465
    When you consider that 75~80% of LPS cars are leased, longevity may be a moot point. However, reliability is obviously important for 2nd and 3rd owners of certified, pre-owned LPS's.
    It's interesting to see the Germans offering V8 and V10 motors with forced induction. That's the only way they can up the horsepower to be king of the 0-60 and 1/4 mile mountain. But turbo's are prone to create longer term reliability issues. So far, the Japanese have eschewed turbocharging (not counting the Acura 4-pot engine).

    Volvo may aspire to swim in the LPS ocean, but they have to reinvent their image in the minds of consumers. If anything can scrub away images of IKEA, Birkenstocks, and lutefisk, I suppose it just might be that sweet Yamaha V8!

    I'm amazed that Saab manages to stay in business. They must sell a lot of cars on the East coast. In most other locales, you're more apt to see a Saab engine on a commuter plane, instead of on the interstate.

    Speaking of changing the image of Volvo, I saw a great bumper sticker in Seattle last weekend. It was on the back of a Volvo V70 and it said "Cheney Satan 2008." Couldn't stop laughing....
  • cstilescstiles Posts: 465
    Great points. I'm convinced that the car mags tacitly coexist by disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing (or to sell more magazines and appease advertisers, of course).

    In 1991 the Motor Trend car of the year was the Chevy Caprice Classic. They may be in denial over that today.
  • "Anybody out there that has driven an individual Audi for 100,000 relatively care-free miles?"

    Our family drove a VW Jetta for 130,000 relatively care free miles. Is there a specific reason, other than one forum participant's Audi having worn out at 100,000 miles, to assume that an Audi wouldn't last as long as a VW?

    I think it's a stretch to claim an experience with one car is a good predictor of what the majority of owners will experience. It might or might not be.

    I cannot find any database of repair frequency and cost for cars post-80K. In the absence of such data, all we have is anecdote and the myth of Japanese cars run forever with little or no repair costs. I find, in conversation, as many believers in the myth than German engines and drivetrains run forever.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I don't think German luxury cars are built to last longer than 100K miles without major life support.

    Totally disagree with that because I've seen otherwise. True a German car may need more maint to get that point, but "major life support" that is stretching it to put it mildly.

    The thing is Japanese cars is that they will last that long as far as their guts and hardpoints, but their interiors and bodies usually look awful and the leather has begun to crack in so many places you can't begin to keep track of it anymore.

    M
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    I appreciate the responses and opinions. So based on size it's not a competitor. The LS 460 L (long-wheel base) is as big as a S-class or A8 I agree. I thought/assumed the LS and S80 were close enough in size to be compared or cross shopped by your avg. consumer. The mid-size luxury market sounds about right to me. I guess I always looked at a Cadillac STS, Volvo S80, Lexus LS, as a large car. I looked at a BMW 3, Infiniti G, Acura TL, more as mid-size. :) I personally think the S-Class belongs in a new category called Xtra-large Luxury car. :P The Maybach, would fit in the XXX-Large Luxury car segment. :blush:

    Well again thanks for y'alls time....

    Rocky
  • . . .one of the service writers at my Audi dealer has an Audi 4000CS quattro -- from the 80's as I recall.

    He told me his first "repair" came at 175,000 miles.

    I assume this was to distinguish the word from "maintenance." I also maintain that these German cars are breathtaking expensive to "maintain" without the protection of some kind of factory warranty, regardless if it is the 50,000 B2B or the 100,000 mile CPO offering.

    Yet, the technicians (who can afford them) seem to be German car fans for the most part and their older models seem to soldier on quite nicely and going over 100,000 miles without "repair" would seem to be more the norm rather than the exception.

    I would say this rings true at my wife's BMW dealership too -- lots of folks have "vintage" Bimmers with tons of miles on them.

    Maybe when you work at the dealership you can "over maintain" your German car on the cheap -- maybe that accounts for this.

    On the other hand, with such a small population sample, these remarks hardly prove anything.

    A former employee had a 1980 something diesel MB -- the thing was a dog, loud, smelly and not really much fun to ride in. It was, however, not rusted out, the mechanical and electrical stuff all appeared to work and even the horridly rough shifting autotrans did what it had always done so said my employee. I think that one had over 200,000 miles on it; and, she claimed it had had very few "repairs."

    Perhaps when we replace our timing belts or clutches or water pumps or whatever maintenance items as we go along, we may tend to think this is indicative of a reliability problem -- when it might just be high mileage maintenance requirements instead.

    Beats me.

    If, a big "if" I were to keep my A6 beyond 50,000 miles and if at, say, 60,000 miles I need new brakes, rotors and all the stuff associated with a full-on brake job and it costs a breathtaking amount does that mean the car was or is unreliable. I really don't know what to expect.

    My friends Bimmer needed new front brake "everythings" at 58K miles at about a $900 bill. His wife's Olds Bravada needed new REAR brakes at 118,000 miles at a fraction of the cost -- but the new brake job (rears) on it were NOT done at the dealer. I forgot to ask him when the fronts went out, but clearly they went out before the rears.

    Another friend kept a Lexus LS400 for 200,000 miles, and it needed few actual "repairs." But it needed at least one paint job (entire car) and the interior (leather) looked worn when it had under 100,000 miles on it.

    Doesn't prove anything. . . :surprise:
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Double-Clutch? ;-)
  • I believe the issue with general vehicle reliability rests with the fact that we ALL go by personal experience.In my case, no matter what CR printed or what was read around these forums , after 100,000 miles and 6+ years of hands on ownership, I would not buy another Audi. That doesn't mean the next potential buyer wouldn't, it was just my issues, but of course I'm sure the same could be said about ALL the brands, including Toyota, Honda,Mazda and of course Lexus!
  • I agree! It is YOUR (or my own) personal experiences that almost certainly overpower these forum's, your friends and relatives, car magazines and consumer magazines.

    I am, however, pretty much convinced that ANY of these cars (with the possible exception of a Jaguar -- and that is totally rumor-based, I have "no facts") would be reliable for at least 50,000 miles.

    As I ride the downhill portion of my lease, I know that I am at the one year out point (plus or minus a couple of months) of "doing it all over again." That being said and with the great and wonderful experience with this Audi I will consider another Audi product without batting an eye.

    But my wife's X3 has been a rock (one recall this month, otherwise a rock) and I will look at them. The Infiniti will certainly get my look see since I actually put money down on one last time and only backed-out when Audi made me an offer I couldn't refuse.

    I have grown to like the looks of the Lexus GS cars, but my gut tells me they are too cushy and I am looking for more driver involvement and more road feel, not more isolation (which Lexus may provide in spades, but there's that bias showing through.) I'll have to test one just to be certain though.

    Heck, I'll probably look at the Chrysler 300C, the Jeep SRT and even the Mercedes "M" class while I'm at it.

    I may come right on back to Audi. But now that I know I got the "deal" on this one, I'd be hard pressed to pony up too much more on a $54K car than I am currently paying (on a lease basis, natch.)

    The STS, too, may merit consideration.

    Point is: I am not very concerned about reliability -- I EXPECT they will all be "acceptable" at the very least.

    Hmmm, if GM keeps up the 100,000 mile warranty -- why NOT look at one of their cars (unless they drive like a log wagon?)

    These blogs have certainly had their effect [on me], for I cannot imagine I would have gone down the Infiniti path were it not for all the bantering about (both that I observed and participated in.)

    What would be an interesting "social" experiment might be to ask the question "were these cars attainable equally (no price incentive reasons, that is) which one would you go for?

    Of course that would be totally unfair, since this, in my experience, isn't ever the case -- i.e., our biases would still play loud and long.

    I think this is a golden age of car buying. What used to be vices are now virtues, or, what used to be options are now standard, what used to be available only in cars mere mortals cannot afford are now offered almost universally.

    This "back up camera" thing, for instance, is now offered on a Chrysler 300 for pity's sake. Heated and cooled seats and ESP/DSC are no longer just for the LPS or High end customers anymore.

    Now, if you want a leather dashboard, well, you do have to order an LPS car -- if you want that leather to be factory leather.

    I saw an ad, however, in the new C&D or R&T magazine for a company that "tunes and dresses" new Buicks every bit as fine as those German tuning companies (wheels, suspension bits, interior re-do's, etc, and even performance upgrades.) A Buick for pity's sake! Who'da thunk it?

    Now does that mean any one of us with the wherewithal to acquire a $50K+ car will suddenly start shopping at $30K+? Perhaps -- especially if, like my buddy who dumped his Mercedes for an Acura -- you care NOT for anything that has to do with the "status" implications.

    My other buddy, after years of high buck LPS cars is now in the top 'o the line Toyota mini-van with leather everywhere a virtual home theater for the back and more comfort than a car THAT cheap ought to have (less than $40K with all the toys.)

    This is indeed the golden age of car-dom, if you ask me.

    But, alas, you didn't. :shades:
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    mark,

    You will need to take a 500-600 hp. 08' CTS-V for a spin. ;)

    A great post !

    Rocky
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,258
    He would if he could.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,258
    What would be an interesting "social" experiment might be to ask the question "were these cars attainable equally (no price incentive reasons, that is) which one would you go for?

    I think this is often the case, not a hypothetical. Price/cost is certainly a factor, but getting what I want is a much bigger one. When I outline what I want (manual transmission, RWD, enough room to carry my bicycle inside the vehicle, some lux features, a hope that it won't spend time in the shop (with or without a warranty)), I end up with a list of vehicles, a quite short one. If the one I want is 5-10K more than one I don't, that's certainly not the determining factor.

    If it were $15-20K more. . .

    But that's not the case. With my priorities, the list is quite short & the pricing delta falls within 10K. The RWD thing blows away everything cheap & the manual thing eliminates most things really expensive. The need to carry my bike eliminates a couple more (G sedan & Lexus I).

    Life is good.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    But turbo's are prone to create longer term reliability issues. So far, the Japanese have eschewed turbocharging (not counting the Acura 4-pot engine).

    Not really. Many vehicles sold under the Lexus badge here were available elsewhere with turbos (the Soarer 3.0T, for example.) While the Japanese luxury brands tend not to use forced induction (yet) in this country, nearly every Subaru has a turbo, and they are not known for having reliability problems.

    Supra, 300ZX, and 3000GT twin turbo powered cars also don't seem to fall apart when entering old age.

    I'm amazed that Saab manages to stay in business.

    Yeah, I don't get that one, either. Their cars are mediocre at best (and don't even get me started on the 9-7X) and somehow people keep buying them anyway.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The thing is Japanese cars is that they will last that long as far as their guts and hardpoints, but their interiors and bodies usually look awful and the leather has begun to crack in so many places you can't begin to keep track of it anymore.

    True, Japanese interiors generally aren't built for more than 10-12 years of constant use. You never hear "Dont own a Lexus out of warranty!" though.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I am, however, pretty much convinced that ANY of these cars (with the possible exception of a Jaguar -- and that is totally rumor-based, I have "no facts") would be reliable for at least 50,000 miles.

    I can say from personal experience as a now 4-time Jag owner (although I've only had the new K8 for a week, so I cant make any reliability claims on that one) that each successive Jag has been far better than the last. The XJ-S did ok mechanically, but there were lots of electrical problems, and the V12s (mine was a V6) were known for having loads of engine problems. The '98 XK8 had some electical problems (the seat motors failed, for example) but they were fewer in number and much less serious than on the XJ-S.

    The '00 XKR was largely trouble free, other than a supercharger issue that was fixed under warranty. The transmission issues did start to appear around the 50K mile mark though. In the 6 years since then, Jag seems to have continually improved, enough to rank among the best in the IQS. It will be interesting to see how the new XK8 does, as this is the first time I've ever had a first MY Jag.
  • If I can drive 10,000 miles at a crack with only normal maintenance items such as tire rotations, oil changes, and wiper blades, I'll be very happy with my MAzda Cx-7.

    Although my Audi A6 2.7T was covered bumper to bumper for the first 50,000 miles, it was very annoying to be visiting the service dept so very often.

    I want to drive a car for 100,000 miles that only needs tires,oil, brakes, blades and maybe a few car washes thrown in!

    Actually, My 1998 TOY camry is almost there... 90,000 miles and only normal maintenance, tires, brakes, plugs,oil, transmission changes, battery once, and that has been it.
  • "Although my Audi A6 2.7T was covered bumper to bumper for the first 50,000 miles, it was very annoying to be visiting the service dept so very often.I want to drive a car for 100,000 miles that only needs tires,oil, brakes, blades and maybe a few car washes thrown in!"

    We have had a 1999 Audi A4 2.8 Avant quattro AWD Wagon in one of our businesses. Used for deliveries and personal use by various people since purchased new. Not one thing (other than tires, wiper blades, third battery recently, brakes) has been done beyond what is described in maintenance schedule. Manager keeps all records. Called down just now: 152,658 miles through today. Interior and exterior (carefully cared for) are still beautiful.

    For whatever that's worth to anyone except the manager.
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