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Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Why does everyone think that BMW and MB sales continue their strong performances when their are so many problems associated with these cars?

    The new 5 series has done pretty well. Its good enough to even get the "recommended" tag from CR. The E still ranks well below the A6 (another "recommended" car), but hammers it in sales, so clearly the M-B badge is more important to some than reliability.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    "Why does everyone think that BMW and MB sales continue their strong performances when their [sic] are so many problems associated with these cars?"

    Just because BMWs and MBs aren't viewed as being as reliable Lexus and Infiniti models, doesn't even remotely mean that they are "unreliable". Comments such as yours are about as meaningful and inflammatory as when others make statements suggesting that the M and the GS lack soul and character when compared to the 5 and the E.

    For my part, I much prefer the driving experience of the 5-Series over all of its competitors, German, American and Japanese alike. That's not to say that the others haven't closed the gap over the last several years, but they ain't there yet. Oh, and I refuse to drive a car with a nasty automatic transmission, regardless of how technologically advanced said transmission may be. Winner by a healthy margin: BMW 5-Series. FWIW, with two BMWs and 100,000 miles of driving them under my belt, I've had two unscheduled failures, one taillight from the right side of the first car followed a few months later by the left taillighr. Pretty cruddy reliability huh?

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • Well, if you buy cars based on reliability... I guess in this price segment people tend to pick cars for other reasons as well. Of course, grossly unlreliable car won't sell, but as long as it is reasonably reliable, it is fine. I personally just picked BMW 530xi over GS 350 AWD albeit BMW is 8K more expensive and statistically less reliable. So what? Lexus just felt *boring* to me. "Nice", traditional look, "comfotable" handling, cars just screamed "relax, take it easy, you are retired now..." :-)

    I personally don't pick women based on their 'maintenance level' - YMMV :-). I want a car I will be enjoying every day as opposed to spending $50K+ and then thinking "gosh, maybe I should have bought BMW... Yes, maybe... But I made the right choice! I did, didn't I? I did., yes, I did. Right. Lexus IS a good car... reliable, good car... right? right?" :-)
  • Without the "reliablity" issue - that in my personal experience with my MB E350 Sport is a non issue - there is little justification for getting a non Teutonic car.

    The new Lexi are getting close but there is still a wide gap. While I am not a fan of the current 5 series, we will soon see a new 5 that could be a fantastic car.

    Personally I couldn't be happier with my E class. I've been on the road for 510 miles since Friday night. I can cruise at 95 without the least drama and if I can keep it under 80 I can get 27 mpg. While I hardly rely on R & T and C & D as entirely neutral sources of information, the Benz has prevailed in all recent shoot outs.

    Which gets us back to the point: Are you really going to buy a Japanese car rather than a Benz or a BMW - and yes the prestige factor does count - if you can't rely on the alleged reliablity factor?
  • reality2reality2 Posts: 303
    Regarding resale, Automotive News printed a residual value for premium cars after 24 months. Lexus scored the highest at 50.8%, BMW was second at 50.4%, Audi was third at 50.2%, and Mercedes-Benz was at 48.8%. I do not have the issue, but the residuals were set by one of the leading predictors of residual/resale values (sorry, but name escapes me at this moment). So, I do not really see much of a difference. The residual "myth" of some makers over others is really more preception than fact. It is more about awareness and therefore marketing.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    "While I am not a fan of the current 5 series, we will soon see a new 5 that could be a fantastic car."

    I'm in the exact same frame of mind, I don't like the E60 in its initial incarnation, however, the spy photos of the "lifted" E60, while not as attractive to my eye as either the E39 or the current E-Class, certainly show a step in the right direction and bring the car up to and beyond my minimum level of visual acceptance. Did that make sense? What I meant to say is that, judging by the spy photos of the new 5er, it is "good enough looking" to be allowed into my garage.

    "Which gets us back to the point: Are you really going to buy a Japanese car rather than a Benz or a BMW - and yes the prestige factor does count - if you can't rely on the alleged reliability factor?"

    I assume that your question is both rhetorical and not meant specifically for me. IMHO, every car in the ELLPS and LPS classes is more than reliable enough, and as such, reliability isn't a deciding factor. Regarding the decision between say, the A6, the E-Class or the 5-Series, for me at least, it would come down to the choice of the transmission. Only the 5-Series offers three pedals under the dash, and as such, it becomes the defacto winner, once again, IMHO. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • It was meant as a rhetorical question. The resale value information is also interesting as it kills yet another alleged reason to buy something Japanese.

    I was actually on my way to order a 5 when I stopped by the MB dealer since I wanted to drive all possible contenders and I was pleasantly surprised by the E Sport. I have a 993 when I want to stir the gears so I need an auto to deal with traffic. Getting a 5 is a very good decision - my next car may well be the next version.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Its amazing that BMW and MB sales are so high for such unreliable cars. But I guess it comes down to residual value.

    Actually it isn't surprising at all. Not nearly as many as you might think care what Consumer Reports and JD Powers say about cars, especially cars that aren't being bought for mere transportation.

    Why does everyone think that BMW and MB sales continue their strong performances when their are so many problems associated with these cars?

    Well for one reason, some folks don't really care what Consumer Reports and JDP has to say and secondly reliability isn't everything. Important yes, but everything no. Well that and a lot of it is hype because a "problem" can range from brake dust to a blown lamp. Mercedes, BMWs and Audis are not breaking down on the sides of the road and going up in smoke like some would have you believe here.

    M
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,541
    "Why does everyone think that BMW and MB sales continue their strong performances when their are so many problems associated with these cars?"

    Rhetorical, perhaps, but a legit. question anyway. . .

    Here is my ‘answer’:

    My sense is that many who purchase ( or lease ) an LPS – much like many who decide on a Corvette – also have 1 or 2 or 3 or more additional vehicles in their ‘stable’. And 1 or more additional driver(s). And some significant amount of time flexibility in their work schedules.

    This means that it is an inconvenience to schedule and ‘drop’ a vehicle off at a dealer for an issue. It is not a big issue, for many. And as long as the repair ( and diagnosis time, etc. ) is covered by a warrantee, it would have to become a repeated, unresolved problem – and \ or one that actually made the vehicle un-drivable, to become an issue.

    I chose my current vehicle in spite of a ( um ) less than stellar reliability record, largely because it was the only one that fit my parameters well and that I could ( sort of ) afford. And it is my only vehicle. Unscheduled service visits are somewhat complicated for me, as no other drivers are easily available, given my work schedule & locations. So far, in over 4,500 miles ( knock leather covered steering wheel ) only one unscheduled visit to my dealer. Long term reliability of this rather complex LPGT ( Luxury Performance Grand Tourer ) remains to be proven.

    If the unique combination of dynamic & luxury aspects of an Audi S6 were exactly & only what I really wanted, that’s probably what I’d buy – in spite of being aware that Audi is not the most reliable brand – and in spite of Markcincinnati’s ongoing brake issues of some time ago . . . At least is seems that Audi has focused some attention here, of late.

    We’ll see if my choice turns out to be OK in the long term . . .
    - Ray
    Very happy, so far
  • What is your preference, performance, luxury, something else?

    The prices for the leases are often all over the board.

    Does this have any meaning to you?

    Would you consider a BMW? There are some interesting deals from time to time on the Audi A6 which is striving to gain market share.

    BMW has very attractive leases.

    And it is never as easy as one would like.
  • The issues with my 2005 A6 3.2 have been few -- this car has great brakes, after 2 A6 4.2's with crappy rotors, this is a pleasure.

    The car was under tired and needed three replacement push button starters. My MMI software was replaced at month 18 but it is like an update to Windows, not unexpected that is.

    My A6 is my daily driver. My wife drives a 2005 X3 BMW and it is her daily driver. It too came with terrible tires.

    The little things in these cars seem to be the problems: the spring that holds the in arm rest cell phone cradle went south in my wife's X3. The spring that holds the ash tray lid closed also went south in her X3. The sensor for the passenger seat airbag, ditto -- all of these somewhat minor issues took her car out of service for at least two days at a time.

    When mine goes in for anything it is almost always at least 24 hours -- but I am provided with a loaner, so it is not too much of an issue.

    Reliability, durability, performace, safety, fun to drive, luxury, etc -- we all have different priorities.

    I don't seem to have any more reliabiltiy issues than my Lexus driving friends. Difference is everything is free for me, everything costs them.

    They have, apparently fewer issues, but they spend more and their issues seem debilitating.

    Mine are usually annoying.

    The cost of building the really DURABLE car must be HUGE.
  • . . .am I with the pictures and words pertaining to the new and improved Cadillac CTS.

    I read with interest the review/announcement about the CTS but noted it seems to have many of the features that the LPS crowd has had for at least two years.

    That's the good news.

    The bad news is, "isn't it a shame" that a 2005 vintage LPS car finally has some of its features showing up on a Cadillac.

    I know the CTS isn't literally an LPS vehicle. But, given the ability to actually buy an American car that "qualifies," I would rather vote American.

    The ante will almost certainly be upped with the 2008's from Germany and Japan.
  • It's not the price or best deal I can get, but rather what car is the best overall? Or put another way, is there one of these that you would Not get?

    Also, I currently have a BMW 545 and would like something different as the BMW 550 is virtually the same.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    It's not the price or best deal I can get, but rather what car is the best overall?

    Isn't that a question that you should answer for yourself? If you don't want another 5 series but you want something in the same vein, I think your two best choices are the M45 Sport and the A6 4.2 S-line.

    I would not get the E because I've never really liked this generation, the E is the most likely of any LPS to have problems, and its just old compared to the 5, A6, and M. That and the RL because its a mediocre car. The only thing it has going for it is that its cheap, and its not that cheap. RL for $35K or XJR for $35K? Thats a no brainer.
  • Now we're really getting somewhere. The E is just "old"? I guess when you're unable to elucidate anything meaningful then we are reduced to that. Kind of like the M45 is still just a "Datsun" and is plain "ugly."
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,934
    Yes, that is a no brainer. I'd take the RL any day. Please tell me where I can buy a new one for 35K.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The E class IS an old car. Its not something thats up for debate like the looks of the M, and how does a cheap Nissan bash have anything to do with anything? It's been around since '03. It has a last gen COMAND system, and it has what, two years left on the market? Most of the rest of the segment was new for '05 or '06. You can pretend that doesnt make a difference if you want.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I didn't say a "new" RL. I definitely wouldn't buy a new one, as they are identical to the '05s, and after 3 years it will be worth what, $25k? Complete flops tend not to hold their value very well. A lightly used '06 is $35k. A 20-30k mile '04 XJR is the same money, and isn't an Accord with a gold watch.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,934
    A 20-30k mile '04 XJR is the same money, and isn't an Accord with a gold watch

    Yes, and that Jag might just turn out to be a Taurus without a gold watch.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Yes, and that Jag might just turn out to be a Taurus without a gold watch.

    Ok, you've completely lost me here. How exactly does the XJ, all new for '04 riding on its own brand new full-size aluminum RWD platform, with its Jag built AJ-V8, have anything to do with the FWD, mid-size steel Taurus that was last redesigned in 1996? If this is just a cheap shot against the Jag grille, I'm afraid you've got the wrong Jaguar. Its the XK that has the oval grille, a feature that goes back to the D-type. Morray Callum copied it for the Taurus, not the other way around. I'm sure Ian has given him hell over that.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,934
    Well if you were't talking about a new RL why do you think I was referring to the current XJ? I never said that.

    Ford has owned Jag for about 17 years now and do you think there has not been any cross engineering going on? Who is to say that the next XJ might not be a front driving rebadged Taurus. Stranger things have happened.

    You slam Acura every chance you get so you should be able to take a shot or two. It is a lot more fun throwing grenades that catching them, huh?

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Who is to say that the next XJ might not be a front driving rebadged Taurus. Stranger things have happened.

    Considering the XJ can go over $90K, I don't see that happening, especially since the Taurus died not too long ago. They just decided to pull the name out of the trash bin to try and boost sales a bit for the 500, but it still has nothing to do with Jag. The Taurus, Sable, and MKS are based on last-gen Volvo architecture, using a Ford engine.

    There was extensive sharing with the LS\Mondeo and X\S-type, but never the XJ, at least not in the US. The European XJ6 uses the Duratec 3.0L.

    The XF is built on a largely carry-over DEW98 platform, itself the basis for the Mustang and the Mustang derived RWD products in the pipeline. As far as I know, the XJ and XK will continue to use unique platforms and engines.

    I'm happy to slam Lexus, BMW, Mercedes, or anyone else that deserves it. I've been a very vocal critic of the GS (and especially the 450h) pretty much since launch. The RL is IMHO, a half-assed effort from Honda. They played it very conservative and very safe in the typical Honda way, and they are certainly paying for it now.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    It is a lot more fun throwing grenades that catching them

    Watched the Today show this morning, did you? ;)
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,934
    Pat, ya got me!! Thought that was a good line so I borrowed it. It's a perfect fit for this forum!!

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,934
    So you can buy a $90K car for $35K a year or two later? If it depreciates that fast, why would you ever want to buy one? It would be doing the Taurus a disservice to compare the two!

    While not perfect, I would still take the RL over that piece of junk!

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    So you can buy a $90K car for $35K a year or two later? If it depreciates that fast, why would you ever want to buy one? It would be doing the Taurus a disservice to compare the two!

    While not perfect, I would still take the RL over that piece of junk!


    XJs have always had horrific depreciation, and the new one is no exception. Look at how much an '03 XJR goes for now. My '00 XKR and a '00 911 CS sold new for very similar money. When I sold my car, that same 911 with similar mileage would go for almost double the price. That's just how it is with Jag. That doesn't mean the cars themselves are bad. (Ok the X-type and S-type are bad).

    Thats why I would never buy a brand new XJ. As a lightly used car they are screaming deals though, especially considering how good QC at Jag has gotten. Is it any different than someone who paid $49K for an RL a week after launch? What's their car worth now? Maybe $28K.
  • kgarykgary Posts: 180
    Three weeks and not a single post? No passion about our cars? In order to generate more taffic on the forum, lets add Camrys and Accords to the list of cars to be discussed. ;)

    Kevin
  • garnetgarnet Posts: 7
    Kids,
    Purchased new '06 RL in July, confident reliability ratings in Consumer Reports would score higher than '05 intro model. CR's just-published reliability stats prove me right. Quite a buy at $40.9 w/o my '96 RL as trade. (Two weeks later private sale netted $7k.) Not to boost none (unusual for a citizen senior)but I must say, nevertheless, as a cool RL owner going on for second decade, AM I HOT, OR NOT!?
    Just wonderin as I wander,
    gar
  • dhamiltondhamilton Posts: 873
    The RL takes a beating from consumers, not so much from the press. At your price [and the price I negotiated for my BIL's 41k] It's the steal of the segment IMO.

    Yeah, I really like this thread, to bad it's dying.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,088
    $40.9!

    Wow!

    Is this in response to demand? I would have to assume so.

    I visted the Acura dealer with my wife, who is now in the 11 months to pull the trigger on the new "whatever" mode to replace her X3 -- looking at the new MDX.

    "Yes, but its Japanese. . ." was heard before we went in, after we came out only sitting in, not driving, the MDX, not a peep on the subject.

    We had driven, earlier that day a new Lincoln MKX and a LandRover HSE ($38,000 and $61,000 respectively.) Also drove a new X3 $48K, the MDX with everything, $48K.

    Looks like the bargain of the bunch (the MDX) if it drives worth a damn.

    Meanwhile on the other side of the showroom was an RL.

    Didn't know one could be had for $40.9K, but it was pretty nice, but it seemed a little smaller than my A6.

    I've been "pre-lusting" to drive a new Cadillac CTS 300HP AWD version and contemplating amongst other things its relative size and apparent graduation into the nearer to the LPS class. I'm thinkin' it will be mid $40's the way I would want it.

    This would mean the RL might actually end up, say it with me, a very high value.

    This would possibly require a paradigm shift in thinking, but I was close to an Infiniti M35X 21 months ago, so this would not be -- for me -- that much of a stretch.

    Anyway -- the Acura seemed pretty much what the early on reviews said -- "a player in the LPS field." Car and Driver, as I recall actually was more complimentary of the RL than my A6. Of course they loved the Infiniti and called the Lexus a living room on wheels.

    So, one would think at THESE PRICES with good reviews, Acura would not need a fire sale.

    Yet, month after month the RL, as I recall, undersells even Audi's dismally selling A6 (but AudiUSA seems quite sanguine about its sales, because they, in relative terms just keep gettin' better.)
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