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Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    .What is the repair record like for these 2006 Audi A6 3.2? If you got one, would you only go with a CPO?

    From what I've seen and heard, the latest A6 is supposed to be pretty good. There were a few minor issues with the initial '05s, mostly to do with MMI teething issues, but those were worked out by '06.

    How long do you plan to keep the car? If it's more than two years, I would definitely either get a CPO, or talk to some Audi dealers and see if they can get you the factory extended warranty.

    Both the RL and the Lexus GS300 AWD had poor reliability in their first year. Acura improved the RL quite a bit for year two, Lexus didn't. I would steer clear of the GS300 AWD. Normally a Lexus is a safe bet in terms of reliability, but for whatever reason Lexus totally blew it with the GS AWD.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Here's what you get in the tech cars: leather, keyless entry/start, xenon headlights, real time weather and traffic, a SOTA nav system with a nav screen that rivals HDTV, backup camera, seat memory, full ipod integration, a built-in hard drive that you can burn up to 400 hours of CD music directly onto, a restaurant guide with full Zagat ratings and descriptions, heated seats, dual zone climate control and bluetooth.

    You also get one of the ugliest cars in recent memory, with an interior that's Honda quality, at best. Only Acura still thinks they can charge over $40K for plastic wood and plastic aluminum. No thanks.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Some say that a good set of snow tires (all 4 tires) for the winter months is a good alternative to front wheel/all wheel drive.

    Having had plenty of experience with an LS430 on Arctic Alpins and Blizzaks, I can report that the car is drivable with light snow and mostly plowed roads. That's as far as I'd go. If there's a lot of fresh snow or ice on the roads and the crews haven't gotten to it yet, forget about it. For those days I would take the wife's RX, and the LS would stay home.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    If you notice in the list at the top of the page, the Lexus GS is listed, while the ES is overlooked. Kind of the same reasoning, I believe.

    Actually it's because the TL, ES, G37, CTS, etc. don't compete in this class. Acura has increased the size and feature content of the TL (making the RL utterly irrelevant in the process) but it's still an entry-level car, one which competes with the ES/IS, G, CTS, C-class, A4, and all the rest. You'll find them all on the entry luxury forum.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,438
    Hmmm... then what is the IS? And what about the TSX?

    And as far as the CTS, is it entry level merely because its the bottom rung Caddy? Because I'm pretty sure it is above entry level, at least as far as size is concerned. I don't want to get into (another) debate on what does or doesn't belong here, but it is a grey area sometimes, to be sure.

    I think, to my point above, the ES is not here, not because it is entry level, because its NOT entry level as long as the IS exists, but because its not a performance sedan. Same could be said of the TL. That is, at least, if we reserve "performance" for RWD .... OHH... wait. But then we have the S80 listed here ... ugh.

    '13 Stang GT; '86 Benz 300E; '98 Volvo S70; '12 Leaf; '14 Town&Country

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Hmmm... then what is the IS? And what about the TSX?

    I'm sorry, but the ES isn't here because it just isn't a mid-lux car. Whether a car is performance oriented, or what wheels are driven doesn't matter. Let's not forget that the A6 is technically available with FWD, but it is still firmly a mid-lux sedan.

    Entry-lux means $35-50K. They can overlap somewhat in size with the mid-lux class, usually depending on whether they are built specifically for the North American market. The NA specific cars such as the CTS, TL, and ES tend to be larger than the world market cars. Both the ES and IS are entry level. The TSX is also entry level.

    Acura competes in the entry class with two cars, just as Lexus does, but in a different way. The IS is Lexus' entry performance sedan, while the ES is the entry luxury car. Instead of offering engine choices, Acura offers the TSX to compete with cars like the IS250, A4 2.0T, etc. and the TL to compete with the IS350, A4 3.2, etc.

    Mid-lux cars range from $45-70K. Every single one except for the RL offers a V8, which is one of the many reasons why the RL has never been more than an also ran. While its true that a vast majority of buyers opt for the V6, you still have to at least offer a V8 if you want to be taken seriously.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,927
    Sounds prudent to me. I personally have never used snow tires and I also leave the LS in the garage during bad weather. That is what the LX is for.

    That said, I have seen some argue here that the very best set up for snow/ice is rear wheel drive with 4 snow tires. This argument never made much sense to me but it is out there.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    the Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans discussion, which hasn't had a lot of traffic lately. That's where we are covering some of these cars that aren't really in this class.

    :)
  • Has anyone attempted to go to a wholesale auction to purchase a car? I have access through a friend and figure that if I find what I want, I could pick something up.

    any comments?
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 29,239
    Do you trust your friend to pick out a car for you?

    Most auctions have gotten very sticky about who they let in... Your buddy just saying you are an employee usually won't work any more. Most dealers have to submit a list ahead of time, of authorized employees who can attend the auction.

    In my experience, it takes a lot of homework, an unlimited CarFax account and access to the Manheim website to get the pre-sale information. Then, you'll need your friend to be willing to go on the day you find the cars you are interested in. Plus, the faith that he'll remember the options that are important to you, and what options/colors are deal killers.

    I have a co-worker who has a dealer's license... I've known him for over 20 years, and I still won't take the chance.

    regards,
    kyfdx
    visiting host

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    That said, I have seen some argue here that the very best set up for snow/ice is rear wheel drive with 4 snow tires. This argument never made much sense to me but it is out there.

    That makes absolutely no sense. There simply is no substitute for AWD in bad weather. Tires also help, and not all AWD systems are created equal. From what I've seen and read, Quattro is the best there is on snow and ice.
  • james27james27 Posts: 433
    An all-season tire as a compromise all seasons. A good set of snow tires helps you stop signficantly shorter than you could ever think of with all-seasons in bad weather, plus turn and start with less slipping. A good set can handle nearly as well as a mid-level performance car and can be quieter.

    Rubber gets harder when it gets cold (and as it ages), and snow tires shouldn't be used when it regularly gets above 50-degrees becasue they would get too soft and wear fast. Because of the softer rubber, they grip much better in the snow and ice.

    An all-wheel drive vehicle may give you false confidence starting, but can't stop any faster than a front or rear-wheel drive car. Have you ever tried to go up a steep, slippery hill with a front-wheel drive car? Could be tough. A rear-wheel may not be much better, but will be some since the weight transfer is rearward, but no comparison to an all-wheel drive car.
  • Have you ever tried to go up a steep, slippery hill with a front-wheel drive car? Could be tough.

    I always have to chuckle when I read comments like this. Years ago before front-wheel drive cars were commonplace, I owned one of the first in my neighborhood. One night while I was out there was an ice storm. The last block of my drive home was a long hill. I was the only one of my neighbors who was able to make it up the hill. Everyone else abandoned their rear-wheel drive cars and walked home.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,927
    That's pretty much been my experience also. Front wheel drive works better than rwd on snow and ice be it up hill, down hill, or level. Pulling just works better than pushing.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • james27james27 Posts: 433
    I've owned lots of front-wheel drive cars, and under most circumstances, yes, you can get going where you can't with rear-wheel drive cars, but I've had this happen - weight transfer is real. Skill, helps, too.

    A good set of snow-tires trumps all, though, especially if the snow is icy or deep.
  • James27 is right on about the dedicated winter tires in all respects. AWD only assists with acceleration or getting unstuck, while the heavily siped, compliant aggressive treadblocks of winter tires help with both of those things and in addition help with braking and cornering. There have been tests done by Car and Driver and other auto magazines over the years showing that winter tires confer more of a safety margin than any other single feature, including AWD. However, AWD plus dedicated winter tires would be the ultimate combination for acceleration or getting unstuck in slippery conditions.

    Front wheel drive is generally accepted as superior to RWD in winter. The explanation that makes the most sense is that the weight of the engine and other front end components is greater than that in the rear, and this weight is applied over the drive wheels and enhances traction. This is why putting weight in the trunk of a RWD car or the bed of a RWD pickup enhances snow traction. There is rearward transfer of weight under strong acceleration, but this effect is trumped by the static weight distribution in FWD vehicles. Also, for the transfer to occur you have to be accelerating already, and under slippery conditions with RWD it can be hard to do that.
  • anon3anon3 Posts: 147
    The term for the temperature threshold at which a particular tire's rubber compound will harden is called the "glass point". Higher performance tires are designed to operate at high temperature and have a higher glass point. As a result, they will harden and lose their pliancy and grip in cool weather at temperatures where other tires would still be flexible. The converse is true for snow tires.

    The glass point is one of the reasons why high performance tires can suffer significant reductions in traction even in small amounts of ice or snow.
  • anon3anon3 Posts: 147
    This is an excellent technical description of entry and mid-level luxury categories. Another way to respond to the question about why the ES350 is not included in this category... "The ES350 is not listed because it's a dressed up Camry, which defines it inextricably as an entry-level, near-luxury vehicle."
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,927
    Here is a new sedan that is really making waves and winning all sorts of awards. Lots of discussion on the Genesis boards as to whether or not this is a true luxury sedan.

    What do you guys think? Should it be included here or does price alone exclude it? How about performance wise? Does just having the Hyundai name exclude it?

    IMO I believe it qualifies as entry level luxury/performance and this board does not distinguish between entry and mid level. At least not by the title.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • jlbljlbl Posts: 1,333
    Given its performance and design quality, then Genesis V8 qualifies here, IMO. Another candidate is 2010 Genesis Coupe.

    Inside Line

    Regards,
    Jose
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,927
    Hola, jose !! Alas, the coupe is not a sedan ! Certainly it would qualify as a luxury performance coupe ! Thanks for the link. Very impressive.

    I hope all is well with you !

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • jlbljlbl Posts: 1,333
    Yup! :blush: I forgot this is the LPS forum.

    Everything is OK, Dan; thanks for asking. I hope it will be all right with you too.

    Regards,
    Jose
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The title of this board "luxury performance sedans" is a bit vague, but when you look at the sedans listed, it's clear that this is the mid-lux market we're talking about. Should the Genesis be included? I would have to say no.

    You need more than just size and RWD (and even a V8) to qualify. The Genesis' price tag is too low, and it doesn't have a luxury badge, so it doesn't make it. The 300C and the Taurus SHO are also powerful, big cars, but they don't belong here either.
  • Should the board be re-titled Luxury Performance Sedans with snob appeal?
  • james27james27 Posts: 433
    One of the things that sets a luxury sedan apart from others is low NVH (noise, vibration, harshness). The M-series is noisey, but not bad in vibration and harshness. The Genesis excells in all three, so if others can fit in with missing pieces, I think it should be here as well.
  • I purchased an 2009 Acura RL two month ago. The car looks small from the outside, but I feel it is very roomy inside. It's true that there isn't much room on the backseat if the front seats are moved all the way to the back, but on the other hand they move much more to the back than many other car seats. The car drives great. Enough power, we don't drive 160MPH in this country. It is not sluggish at all. I have driven quite a few different cars the last year. Everything feels very solid, high quality. I will know in about 2 years how it holds up. The dealer is also very courteous and professional. They provide free loaner car of the same class if needed. (so does BMW here, but not Cadillac).
    I did a lot of research on all the car forums on this web site before making the ultimate decision. I saw a lot of post for the M35 that had problems with the steering, keeping the car in the lane. Mercedes overall seem to be good cars now, but if they are not, many dealers are not willing to get the problem fixed. This statement is not only based on the forums, but somebody from work had experienced it over and over.
    Never heard anything bad about Lexus.
    I think you should take an extended test drive of those cars you consider and then make a decision.
  • vavavavolvovavavavolvo Posts: 111
    That's a great car that is frequently overlooked. What kind of gas mileage do you get with that?
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The M-series is noisey, but not bad in vibration and harshness. The Genesis excells in all three, so if others can fit in with missing pieces, I think it should be here as well.

    A Toyota Camry V6 has very low NVH. Is that now luxury performance sedan as well?
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I purchased an 2009 Acura RL two month ago.

    I'm curious as to what kind of deal you got. Last I checked Acura was selling around 300 RLs a month, which works out to a little more than 1 per dealer. I'm sure they are giving them away now.
  • james27james27 Posts: 433
    Well, the second part to that is the quality and content of the contents of the car...how things are finished, how they look, their fit, and function. No, a Camry doesn't cut it for luxury car, although very reliable, but in my opinion, quite bland.
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