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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,101
    This is, some would argue, more expensive than a new car with all new parts and a new car warranty (based on a 36 month lease).

    The need to "self insure" makes this even more of a very expensive proposition.

    Look at it this way: this is (or was) a high end car from its model year. Its safety reputation and even its performance reputation are decent.

    The economy sucks.

    Why not keep it, unless you for some reason don't need a car?

    My point is that this is a "risky bargain."

    Get a new Korean car from that company with the name beginning with an "H" -- or at least consider it.

    This is based on my assumption that you were looking for a low price on what would be, new, a pretty expensive car.
  • vavavavolvovavavavolvo Posts: 111
    Your statement that the 5 gets "five stars or a good rating in most or all other categories in other tests" is simply not correct. It got a marginal rating in the IIHS side impact test for the driver side (as you noted). The other US testing organization, NHTSA, gave it 3/5 stars in driver's front impact score.
    So on both tests from the only two US agencies that do these tests the driver proved vulnerable and fared worse than in the RL (which was the vehicle that started this discussion).

    This is meaningful to me because the driver's seat is the one I occupy. Also, the "moving deformable barrier" is the auto safety engineer's best approximation of the forces generated in a standardized, reproducible hit by another vehicle. In the case of a driver's side impact, that is the time when the driver is most vulnerable owing to the proximity of the impacting vehicle and the lack of significant deformable body structure in that location.

    I'm glad your friend wasn't seriously injured in that rollover, but this kind of anecdotal information doesn't allow measured comparison with other vehicles. No doubt people have rolled Pintos and Corvairs and been fortunate enough to remain uninjured.

    I agree with you about agility being another factor in accident avoidance and would never argue that it not be considered in a safety profile.

    The 5 series does seem like a truly great car in so many respects that I am disappointed that the only response I got from one of their salespersons was to discount the testing..."that was one car on one day...". ..this while they have a framed certificate in the dealership for the 5 star crash rating of the 3 series. I trust that even if their salespersons don't have the grace to admit that this represents a problem their great engineers will solve this and remove it as an issue for those of us who care very much about moving deformable barriers.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    That's a lot of miles for a European turbocharged luxury car. You'll need to be prepared for unexpected expenses that can run several hundred dollars a pop. That said, the price really isn't bad, most S80s of similar vintage seem to run $8-10K at retail. If you're absolutely in love with the car, have it thoroughly examined by a good Volvo dealer or an experienced mechanic before buying. The service records should be impeccable, and it should have a clean title with no reported serious accidents or repairs. CR rates the reliability for the '02 S80 as average.

    If your budget can manage it, the '04s are rated much better than the '02s, especially the '04 2.5T five cylinder version. Or, you may want to consider something with easier maintenance, like an Accord.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    So on both tests from the only two US agencies that do these tests the driver proved vulnerable and fared worse than in the RL (which was the vehicle that started this discussion).

    The 5 did reasonably well in EuroNCAP's side impact test, but the 5 is not the best car in the segment for passive safety. There are a lot of factors that go in to making a car buying decision, and that's one factor. When I drove the the RL back when it was released, I found the seats to be uncomfortable, the cabin claustrophobic and cramped, the steering too heavy and completely numb, the transmission dimwitted and sluggish, throttle response poor, and ergonomics lousy. I would much rather drive a 535i than an RL, even if it is a bit less safe.

    Fortunately there are a lot of choices in the midsize luxury segment, and the A6 is very safe, nice to drive, comfortable, and spacious.
  • art234art234 Posts: 103
    I had a 2001 S80 and regretted it from the very beginning. It was a service loaner with 8000 miles on it. I traded it in a year and a half later with 28000 miles, and lost 50% of what I paid just to be rid of it. I traded it for a 2005 G35x which was nice for my wife but too small--we eventually traded that for a 2006 Lexus RX400h hybrid which we still love to this day.

    But I digress...the Volvo had some significant problems, from a clunky transmission to noises that the service department could never figure out to a number of bad radios. For EACH problem we experienced, the car was back to the dealer 4 times for the same issue before it was sort of resolved.

    I would never buy ANY Volvo without some kind of extended warranty, and you should definitely have the car gone over by a tech familiar with Volvo prior to purchasing.

    Good luck.
  • shmangshmang Posts: 297
    Man - if I remember correctly, you are having issues with Infiniti as of right now and you had problems with Volvo in the past. I guess luck is not on your side or you must be driving the hell out of the cars you owned - No offense here, just my observations.

    Having said that, I would tend to agree that Volvo has quality issues (below average reliability) while Infiniti (at least the M) have 5 star reliability ratings and rated very high on most resources.
  • art234art234 Posts: 103
    Yes I had some bad luck. The problem with the Infiniti is completely different in nature to the issues I had with the Volvo. The M has a drivetrain vibration which they can't fix, and when pushed to give me the compensation they offered me they refused. While Volvo made an honest effort to fix the problems with multiple visits Infiniti is not very honest or forthcoming about it.

    My M has been driven by some neutral experts, including a master technician from Nissan who is also trained on Infiniti, who told me the vibration would be unacceptable to him in a Sentra, let alone an M. The issue for me is not so much the problem itself than the way Infiniti handled it. When the vibration began causing a buzzing noise inside the car at certain speeds, the service manager of the dealership told me to "turn the radio up".

    For the record the Volvo was driven by my wife, not me, and we are both very good to our cars--we do not drive them hard at all.

    My choices for a new car now are the Audi A4 and the BMW 328xi. We drove the 335 and it is too much car for my wife.

    Again good luck with the Volvo if you so choose.
  • palincalpalincal Posts: 4
    RL is a safer car than a BMW 5-series by a big margin. In fact RL is one of the safest vehicles around. Check out http://informedforlife.org/demos/FCKeditor/UserFiles/File/1MasterSCOREr.pdf for a comprehensive safety study.

    I consider reliability as one of the biggest safety factors which most studies don't take into account. BMWs are far behind Acuras in terms of reliability. I have seen enough BMWs stranded on the roadside to never consider buying one.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    RL is a safer car than a BMW 5-series by a big margin. In fact RL is one of the safest vehicles around. Check out http://informedforlife.org/demos/FCKeditor/UserFiles/File/1MasterSCOREr.pdf for a comprehensive safety study.

    Thanks for that list, interesting stuff. Acura deserves credit for their commitment to safety, and they also deserve credit for quickly improving the RL's quality to among the best in the segment after a very mediocre first model year. You'll get no argument from me there. The RL is a very well engineered product. It is however, IMO, a rather poorly designed product.

    The A6 is both very well engineered and very well designed, and its quality as of late has been excellent, if not quite a match for the RL and M.
  • art234art234 Posts: 103
    Well yesterday I bit the bullet and ordered a 2010 Audi A4 2.0T Quattro loaded--Prestige, Driver Assist (only way to get back up camera now), with walnut.

    I expect delivery mid-late July.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Well yesterday I bit the bullet and ordered a 2010 Audi A4 2.0T Quattro loaded--Prestige, Driver Assist (only way to get back up camera now), with walnut.

    Congrats! The 2.0T engine has proved so popular (over 90% of sales) that Audi has dropped the 3.2L engine choice for 2010.
  • draz2draz2 Posts: 50
    I'm going to guess you paid around $41k for the car loaded. For about $3k less you could have gotten an Acura TL SH-AWD w/ the Tech package (Acura's only option package) which would have given you every bell and whistle imaginable plus a car that's a lot more roomy and has far more power. To say nothing of bullet proof reliability.

    Oh well, to each their own I guess.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 6,018
    I agree with everything you said except my bet is he paid closer to $50 grand for the Audi.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • carnaughtcarnaught Posts: 1,599
    For about $3k less you could have gotten an Acura TL SH-AWD w/ the Tech package (Acura's only option package) which would have given you every bell and whistle imaginable plus a car that's a lot more roomy and has far more power.

    ....plus butt ugly (actually fugly) at no extra charge (LOL).
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    For about $3k less you could have gotten an Acura TL SH-AWD w/ the Tech package (Acura's only option package) which would have given you every bell and whistle imaginable plus a car that's a lot more roomy and has far more power. To say nothing of bullet proof reliability.

    As has already been pointed out, the TL is.. well hideous. I haven't been so revolted by a car's styling since the Pontiac Aztec. You do get lots electronic gizmos as is the Acura way, but you also get lousy materials and an ugly interior absolutely plastered with buttons, which is also the Acura way. I counted some 16 buttons on the steering wheel alone. Every last piece of trim in there is plastic.

    In the Audi you get real aluminum, or real wood. In the Acura you get plastic and like it, as there is not even an option for real trim. The Acura may be one of the cheapest cars in the class, but it looks and feels like the cheapest car in the class. Even the Cadillac CTS has an interior that's about 500x better, mostly because the CTS is not a glitzed-up Chevy.

    Despite its 305hp, the Acura is also one of the slowest cars in the class, thanks to Honda's inability to design an engine that has any torque below redline. In C&D's recent comparison test (where the TL SH-AWD came in last place to an A4 2.0T, G35, and BMW 328i), it was barely faster than the 4-cylinder Audi.

    "Bullet-proof reliability" is also not a certainty by any means. All of those electronic gizmos that come standard in an Acuras tend to go wrong in their first model year introductions, and must be corrected in year 2 and 3.
  • draz2draz2 Posts: 50
    I guess that's why the 2009 TL won Wards Automotive Best Interior award for the current model year (http://wardsauto.com/ar/wards_interior_winners_090406/index.html).

    Yeah, that interior really sucks.
  • james27james27 Posts: 433
    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...personally, I think it looks lousy, but then that doesn't really matter to you.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 6,018
    That is a very strong rant against the TL. Do you have any sales figures for the TL vs the A4 in the U.S.? How are all the people voting?

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • shmangshmang Posts: 297
    Yeah, really. I bet the sales number of Acura TL will embarrass A4 - although I am not an Acura guy myself. It is not anything specific, it is about the total package. TL beat A4 2.0T hands down if you ask me. Only old timers care if the interior is real wood or not. To most customers, as long as it looks better, who cares.
  • draz2draz2 Posts: 50
    People seem to be voting with their wallets. You know what they say...'numbers don't lie.' But TL haters will keep knocking it in spite of the fact that people are buying them in higher numbers than anything else out there in it's segment. Nope, no real bargain there. Those people must all just be blind....or insane....or both.

    The 09 TL is actually doing decently, and kicking the butt of the G37. G sales are off 47%!! What I also found interesting is that Hyndai sold more Genesis sedans than Infiniti sold G sedans, just by a few, but still the G sedan seems to be faced with growing competition and is stumbling mid-life. I don't know about the A4 but you can bet it's trailing the pack...by a long shot.

    Rounded:

    TL Sales 3100
    Genesis 2100
    G37 Sedan 2000

    Overall view: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=147306
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 6,018
    That is kind of what I think. I don't have a dog in this fight either but I just can't see any 4 banger, turbo or not, showing up too well today with all the sweet v6's around. Especially if that 4 banger costs $50 grand.

    The engine is the heart and soul of any auto and I've yet to see a 4 banger that did not vibrate and buzz too much for my taste. IMO no amount of glitz will make up for that.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I guess that's why the 2009 TL won Wards Automotive Best Interior award for the current model year

    I couldn't care less what Wards thinks. The ergonomics in the TL are terrible, and the materials look and feel cheap. The cheap plastic fake aluminum trim looks like cheap plastic. The center stack is cheap plastic, and the console is cheap plastic. The TL interior is basically the same quality as what you get in a Mazda6 or Nissan Maxima. The only difference is the Mazda and Nissan aren't pretending to be luxury cars. I actually prefer the Maxima.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 6,018
    It is hard to check Audi numbers because they are usually grouped with VW.

    I've driven the Genesis and found it to be very impressive, top notch IMO. If I was in the market it would definitely be on the list.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    People seem to be voting with their wallets. You know what they say...'numbers don't lie.' But TL haters will keep knocking it in spite of the fact that people are buying them in higher numbers than anything else out there in it's segment. Nope, no real bargain there. Those people must all just be blind....or insane....or both.

    You're conveniently leaving out the fact that the TL is getting annihilated by the 3 series. 8,464 of which were sold in March. Numbers indeed don't lie, and the TL isn't even close to being the segment leader. TL buyers must be blind, I don't know how they could get past the styling if they could actually see it.

    5 series sales were 4,040 in March, by the way. How's that RL doing these days?
  • james27james27 Posts: 433
    The latest month where I could find a breakdown of both Acura and Audi was from Feb 09

    Acura TL 2293
    Audi A4 2202

    Hardly a trouncing or difinitive difference.
  • draz2draz2 Posts: 50
    We all know that you know much more than those ignoramus' over at Wards. I'm surprised you don't offer them seminars on "how to design a car interior (and exterior)." The interior of the TL is cutting edge up-to-date and equipped with state of the art technology. But all that is meaningless to you I guess. You're probably one of those guys who salivates at the chance to get one of those really "spiffy" AM/FM head units....preferably with a cassette tape player. If you really hit the lottery, maybe you can even find a car with an 8-Track.

    You really seem to like to display your ignorance with statements like, "I actually prefer the Maxima." That would be the same Maxima with that "awesome" CVT transmission that feels like a loose rubber band attached to a flywheel, right?

    Wow, you're a real car guy. I can tell.
  • draz2draz2 Posts: 50
    >>>You're conveniently leaving out the fact that the TL is getting annihilated by the 3 series. 8,464 of which were sold in March.<<<
    -
    -
    All leases, all poseurs.
  • jimbresjimbres Posts: 2,025
    Easy, big fella. While Lexusguy may have come down hard on the Acura (not without justification, IMO), at no time did he attack you. Why, then, are you making this personal?

    We're just talking about cars here - not about really important things, like books, music or single malt Scotch.
  • draz2draz2 Posts: 50
    >>>I've driven the Genesis and found it to be very impressive, top notch IMO. If I was in the market it would definitely be on the list.<<<

    I agree. The Genesis would have been on my short list too if it weren't for the fact that it's RWD only. I live in NY and we get snow here and there's no way I want to be in a RWD car with snow on the road.

    That and the fact that Hyundai really needs to establish a separate dealership network if it expects to move into that market segment. Who wants to go in for an oil change and wait behind a guy with a beat up Elantra?
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    We all know that you know much more than those ignoramus' over at Wards.

    Considering their choices, yes, I would say I do. I don't judge an interior by whether the stereo can play DVDs, or whether the NAV system has Zagat ratings and weather reports. There's nothing inherently luxurious about techie-gizmos. I don't take luxury vacations at a Best Buy.

    The fact is, Acura loads their cars up with tech features as a crutch. They know they cannot compete with Audi, or BMW, or even Lexus when it comes to quality of the leather, or switchgear, or dashboard materials, so they go on an on about how much technology you get as standard.

    I'm just not interested. The TL is like the Saab 9-3, a quasi-luxury car built on a pedestrian platform that uses smoke and mirrors to disguise what it actually is. It's less transparently shameless than something like a Lincoln MKZ, but that's about as much praise as I can give.
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