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Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,526
    .. to read your updates, Mark.
    - Ray
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,262
    What Ray said.

    Thanks.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Equipped in Prestige trim, the B8 is essentially, sitting behind the wheel, about 97% C6 in terms of everything you can see and touch, press, turn or activate.

    Eh... I'm not quite sure I'd go that far. The B8 has loads more technology than previous A4s, but I feel like the other side of that is they had to cut costs dramatically and it shows a bit too much for a premium car. The door pulls are rock hard plastic, and the center stack and console look and feel a bit cheap IMHO. The interiors in the B5 and B6 A4s simply blew away the competition from BMW and Mercedes. The B8 doesn't accomplish that. It's class competitive, but that's about as far as I can go.

    Ultimately I would have a hard time choosing the A4 2.0T over a G37x. The A4 is a great looking car, but the just updated G has a more attractive front end than the '07-'09, and is also quite handsome. The 3.7L engine isn't the most refined in the world, but neither is the 2.0T, and of course the power difference is massive.

    The new S4 is a fantastic machine, but the A4.. I don't know, I just don't feel like it's worthy of a $50K price tag.
  • My perception or comparison, if you like, was from this perspective:

    I got out of a 2005 Audi C6 A6 which was pretty well loaded and walked over to my new 2009 Audi B8 A4 (about 15 months ago). The switchgear, the steering wheel (although my A6 did not have paddle shifters), the console, the wood, the feel of the leather, the seat's firmness, the instrument cluster, the soft plastic on the dash, the a/c vents, every knob, button, leaver, etc -- had been "transplanted" or copied from the A6 (my previous A6.) The look, out the windshield, virtually everything about the B8 was taken from the A6. The volume knob, the sat nav, the voice recognition, the bluetooth, etc etc etc -- at least 97% the same as the outgoing A6.

    I was not -- indeed I cannot -- compare the B8 to a new G37x, I haven't been up close and personal to a G for 1.5+ years. Since my wife has a 2008 BMW, we do spend a fair amount of time loitering at the BMW Store -- and I do believe that the B8 still has a much nicer interior than the current 3 series (and 5 series even).

    I did look at a 2008 and, as I recall, a 2009 Infiniti G (but not the 2010's) and AT THAT TIME, the G's interior had been updated from the first gen's cheapo look, but, AT THAT TIME, I still felt the Audi interiors were ahead of the game. Today, you may well be correct.

    Another way to look at this -- the 2009 A4 uses an A6 design first brought to the market in 2004 on the C6 when it first hit the market as the brand new generation of A6's. I have not spent any time, period, looking at 2010 A6's, so although I assume there have been some interior upgrades, I also assume they are not as significant as the replacement A6's will be when the C7 generation comes out.

    Hope this clarifies. :shades:

    P.S. I did conclude, too, with my own out loud doubts about the VALUE prop of the A4 (and, frankly, every other European car) when for less money you can get a new 300HP AWD sport lux optioned CTS (which does have a pretty nice interior treatment, too.) TODAY, based on the local paper here in Cincinnati, the CTS would be the "biggest bang for the buck," even after reading the fine print on the deals offered.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    and I do believe that the B8 still has a much nicer interior than the current 3 series (and 5 series even).

    Mmmm.. I'm not sure on that one. I haven't spent any time in a new 3 or 5, but at least as far as appearance is concerned, I think the 2008+ 5 series looks significantly richer and more upscale than the B8 A4. I didn't like the initial '04 interior at all, but BMW made significant improvements as part of the '08 freshening, and I think the current 5 now gives the A6 a run for its money, and beats it in some areas. The 3's center stack is on the cheap side, though BMW is rather more liberal in doling out the wood trim than Audi is in the A4, which sort of makes up for it. Overall I'd probably give it to the B8 over the current 3, but its not a total knock out as with the B6 over the previous gen 3 series.

    Audi improved the start button in the C6, and the gray trim piece that surrounds the instrument cluster and NAV screen was painted silver, but that's pretty much the end of it. Other than the rear lights and the new engine, the C6 really hasn't changed since '05.

    BMW has stepped up their game that much further on the 2011 5, which has a look nearly identical to the X5 and 7 series. It embarrasses the new E class on the inside, and Audi is going to have their work cut out to beat it with the C7 A6. The 2011 M has by far the best interior Infiniti has ever done, so there's challenge from that too.

    The new A8 and the A7 concept still have that old Audi "surprise and delight" interior magic, and I hope some of that makes its way into the C7.

    The CTS just doesn't appeal to me. I've never liked the blocky "Art & Science" look, and while the interior does look nice at first glance, when you actually get up close it's a lot more Acura than Audi. I like it better than the C-class (I like pretty much everything better than the C-class), but IMO the G is the much better value champ.

    image
  • An Infinit M almost became mine back in '05 -- and, for me, Infiniti still stands as the Japanese BMW. The way folks here are praising the new G37, I guess I'd better check one out before I succumb to the Art and Science's low price allure.

    I did test the latest CTS -- and I have NOT tested a recent Acura, so your observation is probably right on. In any case, the CTS seems, today, to be a lot of car for the money.

    Now, having said that, I thought the M I almost bought was also a lot of car for the money compared to the Audi (but then Audi gave me a super deal that leveled the playing field.)

    I have been so loyal, so almost blind, I wonder if I am just stuck with the "nothing even comes close" to a German car mentality that it will take a lot of pulling to not re-up again. But, OWWW, $50K for an A4 2.0T, even with all the toys, it seems a lot.

    As I recall, it is damn near impossible to get a G UP TO $45K -- although maybe that has changed, too.

    This recession has just made me think more of bang for the buck -- as if "I've been spending too much on cars for too long, 'specially when I can get what SEEMS to be the same for less." Now, having said that, I simply ASSUME that all the accolades the CTS gets are pretty well deserved and, if that assumption is valid, well, why pay more unless you really do get more?

    Then, I wake up and remind myself I still hold on to the notion that you generally get what you pay for.

    Oh hell, maybe I'll just get a Jeep.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    As I recall, it is damn near impossible to get a G UP TO $45K -- although maybe that has changed, too.

    The G37x is pretty much all out of ideas at $43K. That gets you tech, premium, sport, and NAV, including active cruise and headlights, sport seats, BT, the top level sound system, and all the rest. And from what I hear, Infiniti dealers are not exactly asking sticker for these.
  • I just got a new Blackberry 8530. Took my car to the dealership and was told Blackberry's are tricky with the MB bluetooth system. Can't transfer my contacts into the car. Anyone have a similar situation? Anything I can buy to help transfer contacts? thanks.
  • You might try the website for Blackberry. In the past they have had updated software for some cars that are having difficulty pairing with the Blackberry.
  • m4mm4m Posts: 76
    ... and there is always another choice is to get rid of underpowered and overpriced E350 and get Infiniti M...
  • ghstudioghstudio Posts: 950
    My 2008 M35 lease is almost up....time to look for a new car. I lease because I never keep a car over 3 years (prefer 2) and the infiniti deals have been so good. Now it's time to find another car.

    My choices....The BMW 530, Jaguar XF premium, Cadillac CTS, Mercedes E350 (maybe diesel) or a 2011 M35. My wife has eliminated the Audi. The local Lexus dealer just doesn't deal so I eliminated them and I consider the 350 overpriced....and poor resale on GS350's. After 2 M35's, I'm ready for a change even though it will be the least expensive choice due to loyalty dollars and dealer pricing.

    The BMW is low on the list due to, of all things, the fixed seatbelt anchors on the door posts which make it undriveable by my 5' tall wife. The CTS has very short seat bottoms so they lack support of my legs. The Mercedes has less than a stellar service track record and everyone seems to have them around here....so I'm seriously considering a Jaguar XF( probably a premium).

    This doesn't seem to be a popular choice...I see few XF's on the road. Am I making a mistake? What am I missing.

    I should mention that the car will be used in southwest florida where there are no winding roads or hills.
  • jayriderjayrider Posts: 3,299
    I would suggest buick lacross but leasing domestics is usually a bad deal. Honda Accord exl is a great lease. MB E class are bad leases. Check out ridewithg.com for info across the board.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Posts: 1,938
    You'll notice all the cars he mentioned are all luxury and RWD. I doubt a Lacrosse and definitely not an Accord will do for him. Now, ghstudio, seeing as how you've basically eliminated everything except the XF, I see either that or yet another M35 in your future.;) Probably the M35 considering how nice the upcoming one is.
  • jayriderjayrider Posts: 3,299
    A cxl awd lacross has a well appointed interior - leather/wood etc. The accord is not in the luxo class for sure but still nice. My suggestions were related to leasing. The accord is great -- infinity has some decent deals but much of the luxo crowd is bad lease city right now.
  • james27james27 Posts: 433
    The M37, due in about a month at the dealers, has some nice additions, but gets lower fuel economy and has less headroom, if either of those things are a concern to you. Not sure why your wife excluded the Audi, but if that's the case, you do what you have to. I've been looking at the new BMW GT series. Unfortuneately, for me anyway, it is only available now with the V-8. Now if you want 400hp and a gas guzzler tax, it is a nice ride. The I-6 version is due maybe about when the Infiniti versions show up and gets much better mileage and has sufficient power. The 530 and the E350 just don't have enough headroom for me. The new GT does. If you ever carry passengers, the rear-seat room is in the same league as the BMW 7-series, the seats recline, and you can option it to be very plush.
  • m4mm4m Posts: 76
    but gets lower fuel economy and has less headroom - not so according to official press release:

    PRESS RELEASE 2011 Infiniti M Sedan
    The 2011 Infiniti M will be offered in M37 and M56 model designations when it goes on sale at Infiniti retailers nationwide in spring 2010. The M37 features a refined 3.7-liter V6 engine with increased power and fuel economy (versus the previous generation M35’s 3.5-liter V6).
    The M56 also offers more power and better fuel economy from an all-new 5.6-liter V8 (versus the previous generation M45’s 4.5-liter V8). Both the M37 and M56 engines feature Infiniti’s advanced VVEL (Variable Valve Event & Lift) system and all models are equipped with a standard 7-speed automatic transmission.
    The M56 engine also utilizes Direct Injection Gasoline™ (DIG) technology. The M37 and M56 are available in both rear-wheel drive and with Infiniti’s Intelligent All-Wheel Drive system.
    A special Sport Package, offered on rear-wheel drive models only, offers 4-wheel Active Steer (4WAS), sport-tuned suspension, Sport Brakes and 20-inch wheels and tires.
    As for the car’s size, it is larger than the outgoing M, measuring roughly half an inch longer at 194.7 inches, 2-inches wider at 72.6 inches.
  • E350 and Inifiniti M are not that far apart in price once you sit down and negotiate and M is noisier and rides rougher. Looked at both an E was far better buy.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,905
    If you buy an E350 equipped as nicely as an Infiniti M, you would probably pay over $10,000. more. You can pay over $80 grand for an E class Mercedes.

    In addition to that, the M is rated near the top by Consumer Reports, second only to the Lexus LS. The 350 is waaay down the list. Very poor reliability compared to the M. CR puts them both in the same class (luxury sedans).

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • james27james27 Posts: 433
    Well, the specs are on their webstie, and while it may have more interior volume, the actual headroom is about 3/4" (39.7 vs 39.1) less in the driver's position http://www.infinitiusa.com/allnewm/index.html?intcmp=2011_m_micro.Promo.Homepage- .Home.P1#//specs-options. The article I read said the real-world mileage was less...we'll see when they actually show up. Their webpage shows 'TBD' for those figures, but people who've actually driven it say less than the outgoing. Maybe with the additional power, they were thrashing it more...we'll see.
  • Just configured a 350 and M on carsdirect
    E350 = 51K with P1, leather
    M = 41K with tech package

    so E is 10K more that is ~ 25% more than M's price of 41K
    With M you get engine with more oomph (303 hp vs 268 hp)
    Better reliability......drawback you will not have service advisors's number on speed dial

    Infact E350 finished last in car and driver 5 car comparision (A6, 5 series, M, Jag XF, and MB E class)..and in the comparision test 5 series and M were OLD MODELS - both are getting revamped this year
  • m4mm4m Posts: 76
    When I was on market for my first luxury car in this class and I could not belive MB charges extra for HID lights, heated front seats (cooled seats not even avail on E350), push button ignition and leather seats so I decided to go with Infiniti M.
    I think for 50K plus car those should be standard.

    However just like someone said on another forum: "I wouldn't switch MB or BMW to Lexus or Infiniti. They are totally different animals in automobile world. If you like to drive the car - you get MB or BMW, if you like options and gadgets - you get Lexus or Infiniti."

    It is a compromise, to give up something in order to get something else - choices, choices...
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    However just like someone said on another forum: "I wouldn't switch MB or BMW to Lexus or Infiniti. They are totally different animals in automobile world. If you like to drive the car - you get MB or BMW, if you like options and gadgets - you get Lexus or Infiniti."

    I don't agree with that at all. German /= automatic great drive, and Japanese /= automatic tech wonderland. Most of the recent Mercedes cars like the C and E classes have been described as dull and boring, with dead steering and lifeless handling. Good for cruising down the highway and that's it.

    The latest Audi S models are reaching par with BMW in terms of driving enjoyment, and their options and gadgets are better than anything Lexus or Infiniti have. The Infinitis I've driven have been very enjoyable. Certainly a G37 is a lot more fun than a C350, so that throws out that argument. Infiniti's current tech is getting pretty stale, but it looks like the M37 has a somewhat updated system.

    Lexus has absolutely nothing technology wise which can compare to the state of the art systems in the new A8. Several of their cars still come with cassette decks!

    Getting back to the original question of what to replace an '08 M35 with, the XF is a decent choice, but a serious reliability risk. I'm less impressed with the car than I was back when I bought my S6. The new leaders in this class are likely to be the new 5 series and the new M, with the new A6 likely joining this group next year. The E class is already an also ran.
  • bmlexusbmlexus Posts: 755
    Just wanted to know about what you're saying. :confuse:

    Japanese /= automatic tech wonderland But when u compared it to the Audi, you're saying Lexus has absolutely nothing technology wise which can compare to the state of the art systems in the new A8. Several of their cars still come with cassette decks :surprise: I would personally like the lexus to keep the cassette deck in the near future as well.
  • Lexusguy pretty much gave a sood summary

    Here are my thoughts:
    If you like driving you you get BMW, Audi S line, or Infiniti M (Depending on price point)
    If you want to show off you get MB or BMW or Jag....may be Lexus or Audi..infiniti is not up there yet & Acura is just wannabe
    If you want nice E350/lexus type driving experirnce and are not badge conscious you get Genesis at whole lot less price.

    Sanjay
  • vinrunvinrun Posts: 11
    I heard that the 2011 E class will have bigger engines. Over 300 hp for the E 350. Due out in September.
  • lovemyclklovemyclk Posts: 351
    Could be the new DI motor... about time.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I heard that the 2011 E class will have bigger engines. Over 300 hp for the E 350. Due out in September.

    Probably the euro spec CGI engines finally making their way to these shores. Still, a few more horses are not going to turn the E class into a fun car. Winding Road recently described the E350 coupe as barely better to drive than a Camry.

    The new 535i is better looking than the E, has a much nicer interior than the E, and at least the initial opinions say its as good to drive as ever. I just don't see any reason to buy an E class.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Just wanted to know about what you're saying

    My point was that the idea that Infiniti and Lexus are the leaders in gadgets and technology is incorrect. Infiniti's systems haven't really changed since 2006, and the Lexus LS460 is using rather old and outdated NAV and tech systems as well.

    The tech leader at this point is Audi. There is no car currently in production that can match the technology packed into the A8.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,905
    Yes, but the tech in the LS actually works ! They won't upgrade it until the new tech is perfect !

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

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