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Luxury Performance Sedans



  • jlbljlbl Posts: 1,333
    "Any comparo I have seen with the 545 has lead to MB winning with the E 500 anyway."

    Hmm… look at pp. 14-22 in #1 issue of Winding Road electronic magazine at

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 19,843
    yeah, well, wake me up when we can buy one here in the States. Which will be ... oh .... never. (and please don't state 2007 because that date, which was already pushed back 3 times, was with GM money. Now that GM is out of the picture, don't expect it to ever happen.)

    '14 Jetta TDI wagon; '98 Volvo S70 base; '14 Town&Country Limited; '09 LR2 HSE. 41-car history and counting!

  • senneca01senneca01 Posts: 34

    I am not sure if the editors read the forums or not. They probably don't even care what their loyal fans have to say. They screwed this comparison test up royally. Do you really think they are going to admit any mistakes that they made? I highly doubt it. They don't care if their reviews have a shred of truth to them or not. The consumer who visits this website is the one who gets ill-informed. All they care about it the check that goes to their bank accounts.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 48,985
    Read the review.. Take the information that is relevant.. Ignore the rest...

    Who cares if they name one car better than another, and what possible difference could it make?

    Were you the same guys in grade school that said your Dad could beat up my Dad?


    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    The specs and "BYO" for the 2006 5 with the new 255hp an 215hp engines are now up on Both the 525i and 530i use 3.0L engines. BMW estimates 6.6s 0-60 for the 530i auto, and 7.6s 0-60 for the 525i auto.

    MSRP seems to have gone up about $500 for the 525i and about $1000 for the 530i. The options and package, and their prices, remain the same.
  • rich545rich545 Posts: 386
    I have to agree with others that already responded; where did you see the E500 beating the 545i? It's not as fast nor does it handle as well. The only area where SOME people seem to like it better is in styling which is a completely subjective thing. I'm not saying the cars aren't close performance-wise, but the 545i does have the edge in that arena.
  • mg808mg808 Posts: 22
    The comparo test by Edmunds was a very ill attempt at getting some results. You can't match cars that aren't exact in specs...That said....

    The Acura RL can only be compared to AWD, V6 sedans that are LOADED.

    The Lexus GS300 AWD is too small and underpowered = No Comparison. Lexus Luxury = More Plastic than Wood, take a look for yourself in the 2006, Its a really lame job by Lexus.

    Infiniti M35x = Nice layout and in essence a mirror copy of the Acura RL (plus or minus a few things). Waiting for a test drive from the dealer.

    IMO Infiniti seems to be more gimick than car company. Maybe with the CEO's new direction, that will change, but all they do is chase, chase, chase. No identity. Are they after MB, BMW, Lexus ? Who are you trying emulate, they don't even know...

    At least with Lexus you know they are all about Luxury, while Acura has always provided a car that has a large dose of reality which equates to a nice price point, luxury & reliability.

    What's Infiniti ?
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    >> I wonder do the road test editors read these boards?

    I think they do from time to time, but you can't count on them seeing everything that is posted. For anyone who wants to make sure they hear you, the best thing to do is use the Feedback link at the top of the page ... as well as post your comments here for everyone else, of course. :)
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Please do not use "rice" terms in our Forums. As they arose from an offensive ethnic slur, we'd rather not have them here. If you have questions, feel free to email me (don't post them here). Thanks!
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,834
    I posted on the M35/M45 board. . .
    Just f.y.i.
    2015 Charger R/T - yup, it's got a Hemi...
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    2005 E320:

    MSRP ($48,500) - Invoice ($45,105) = $3395 or 7.5%

    2005 530i:

    MSRP ($45,400) - Invoice ($41,495) = $3905 or 9.4%

    2006 M35:

    MSRP ($39,900) - Invoice ($36,676) = $3224 or 8.8%

    2006 GS300:

    MSRP ($42,900) - Invoice ($36,465) = $6435 or 17.6%

    Interesting, the M35 invoice is actually higher than the GS300 invoice. Lexus dealers must LOVE Toyota USA.
  • bartalk3bartalk3 Posts: 692
    Wow, what a spread between invoice and sticker on the GS. Too bad us buyers won't see any of that for a long while.
  • jjacurajjacura Posts: 808
    Geesh Merc...I just came back in here and read Your and Lexasguy's follow up on my RL post. When do you guys sleep? I noticed the time stamp on your posts. Even retired guys like me go to bed sometime. I noticed these pictures. Nice lines. Give us some more info on these cars. JJ
    PS Is Merc short for Mercury? :-) LOL
  • jmatthejmatthe Posts: 51
    Roundel of all places...not in overall performance, but overall package. R&T rated the e320 way ahead of the 530...sorry, meant to say 5 series vs the E class.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Well I'm at work now so.....

    Nope, of course "Merc" isn't short for any American brand of car.

  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Well I've never really been a fan of Edmunds reviews because they swing widely it seems. They said the current SL500 was underwhelming and then put it over every other car in the segment by far and couldn't stop raving about it.

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Good point. Usually (though not in 100% of cases) when you read a comparison test in C&D, or Motortrend, you have an idea of whose going to win before you read the test. Those magazines have a certain way of thinking about cars, certain aspects of the entire experience means more to them, and cars that best match their particular expectations usually win. In Edmunds, on the other hand, the winners of comparison tests seem to be almost entirely at the whim of the particular writer at the time. This time it appears to have been written by a bunch of old fogeys that picked the GS because it was oooo so comfy! If it was written by an editor more interested in handling than easy to use controls, the M45 most likely would've won.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I saw this on another board: with brains
    BMW.....sportiness with class
    MB......elegance with muscle

    I found this to be right on the money as far as the German brands go. How would the Japanese luxury car fans here group Lexus, Infiniti and Acura?

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Its harder to describe them. Infiniti and Acura have done an about face in terms of their products in just the last few years. Lexus is precision crafted luxury. That has essentially always been their mission. Acura and Infiniti are teenagers that are still "finding themselves".
  • bartalk3bartalk3 Posts: 692
    Audi is beauty with brains? (Probably ought to be beauty without brains, considering all the electronic glitches.)

    What about the GS? A friend of mine has an '04 GS, black with darkened windows. When he approaches, it's downright menacing, and confirms the original Lexus commercial for the car, taken from Shakespeare, "Something wicked this way comes..."

    The new GS, on the other hand, he describes as "feminine". I actually think there's something to that. Something about the softened lines and curves of the car and the voluptuous interior. It's not macho enough for him, and he prefers his black getaway car.
  • pasgenerpasgener Posts: 33
    "Teenagers finding themselves"?? Not so sure about that. Infiniti has become "sporting luxury with value" (G35, G35c, new M35/45, FX35/45). Acura has been "Honda plus" for a number of years.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,343
    Acura, it has been written, wanted to produce -- in the Legend -- the Japanese Audi. Budget (or high value) Sport-Luxury (and if you were Audi, plus quattro). Until the new RL, based significantly on a long test drive of a new TL, I assumed Acrua's rival (from Europe) remained Audi. When the RL came out, I thought, naah Acura is off on another road. But then the new A6 came out and I thought again.

    Acura seems to be targeting (for conquest) Audi; while Audi, in Germany at least, has targeted BMW for conquest.

    Having spent a reasonable amount of time "in and around" both the RL and the GS (at the auto show here in late Feb) and having driven the Audi A4 & A6, both Mercedes and BMW's small and midsized cars and Infiniti's secret weapons the G35x and the M35x, here is my take on the current rivalry German to Japanese. If it is not a rivalry, then at least the following equivocation is meant to suggest where these brands must feel their foreign competition stacks up.

    Acura = Audi
    Infiniti = BMW, then Audi
    Lexus = Mercedes

    Broadening this to include same country rivalry:

    Audi = Acura, BMW, Infiniti
    BMW = Audi, Infiniti
    Mercedes = Phaeton (possibly other VW's over time), Lexus, BMW (7 series).

    I certainly do not mean to suggest I think these are "=" [equal] cars, I used the equal sign to denote what I have read about the marketing and engineering (in that order) approach.

    Audi certainly must concern itself with Mercedes, especially the A8 and the S class (and now more than ever that so many Mercedes can be had with 4Matic).

    Acura must look at Lexus as a competitor for market share, too. However, based on reading too many car magazines for too many years, it does seem that Lexus, for example, has attempted to be the Japanese Mercedes and that Infiniti is becoming the Japanese BMW.

    Of course, were I an exec @ Audi of America corp headquarters and I picked up my copy of today's Wall Street Journal with the slick plastic wrap proclaiming "Introducing the All-Wheel-Drive Lexus GS," I might feel I was being "attacked on all fronts" by Acura, Infiniti, Lexus, BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar, Volvo and even VW.

    My BMW and Mercedes owning friends and colleagues, kid me without mercy, saying that Audis are VW's who know somebody, Acuras are Honda's that know somebody, Infiniti's are Nissans that. . .and that Lexus are simply Toyota's that . . . well you get the idea.

    If Audis lease programs stay in the "incomprehensible zone," I would think the Infiniti would be a no-brainer. Hopefully Audi gets its head out of its nose and doesn't allow me to walk away.
  • mg808mg808 Posts: 22
    Very nice write up.

    Its funny how the Japanese stigma of Toyota, Honda & Nissan is very hard to shake off.

    Lexus has tried and done the best job. The others still show a design lineage from their parent companies.

    Pureists (if there are any), will always say mention the parent companies, instead of Lexus/Acura/Infiniti.

    In the end, its what you want to drive.

    Its also interesting how the Japanese car companies target their german rivals and one-up them in design, relability and price.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    How come the "lesser" Avalon has the remote engine starter, but the luxury GS and upcoming IS don't have this feature/option?
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I would argue that Infiniti is still working on that. There's nothing sporting about the Q45. Once their entire line is focused on sport first like BMW's is, then yeah, sure. But while there are still remaining stragglers from the "old" Infiniti days, not quite.

    Mark, Audi might have been the original focus for Acura's Legend, but unlike Lexus who stuck to their S class guns with the LS, Acura lost that focus long ago. The Legend became RL, a boring, bland, completely unsporting car that wasnt a particularly good value, whose target was ES shoppers, and I guess LS (or so Acura wished). The Vigor was bland nothing, and the TL that replaced it was bland nothing until about '99 or so. The rest of Acura's products we're "Honda plus" as it was put.
  • I think the "Parent company" argument could be made for more than just Japanese brands. The most notable of which is Audi (VW). Take a look at the new Passat. There is a striking resemblance to the A6. Also, you are beginning to find Mercedes parts in Chryslers. On more of a hypothetical note, I wouldn't buy a Maybach if I had the money, because it uses so many Mercedes parts. This kind of thing happens with all manufacturers, all more concerned with the bottom line than individuality.
  • untrueuntrue Posts: 18
    That is because most lexus,infiniti and Acura cars are actually sold in their native countries under their Toyota, Nissan and Honda badges.
  • footiefootie Posts: 636
    That's why the stigma has reversed.

    There's no stigma associated with buying Japanese any more and hasn't been for about 10 years, ever since their QA improvements left the stagnant U.S. companies and ever falling German companies falling behind.

    The stigma, is 'why in the world did you pay more money for something that works worse?'

    Or as my sister in Savannah says when I ask her why in the world she drives an Acura RL when her friends drive MB's and BMW's. She say 'I got the money honey, I just dont' got the time'. What she says in private company about her friends...well, that's private.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    That sort of thing may be happening with all car companies, but with two leading German brands BMW and Mercedes it happens a lot less than in Japanese cars. Everyone knows that a Maybach is just a giant Mercedes, the kind of car they always wanted to make anyway. BMWs are pure as pure can be, they share nothing with any other brands. Even the Mini is a fwd car unrelated to a BMW. The Phantom uses a 6.75L version of the BMW V12, but it isn't even close to a 7-Series in construction. Yes there are Mercedes parts a whole lot of engineering in Chrysler, but nothing in the reverse like Chrysler parts in a Mercedes.

    VW and Audi are a lot like Toyota in Lexus, from styling to engines and everything else they share a lot from their "regular" brands to the luxury one. Though other than the grille I don't think the new Passat looks anything like the A6, imo.

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I was very surprised to see how much body sits behind the rear wheels on the new Passat. Its side profile seems almost buick-ish with such a big butt.
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