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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • bdr127bdr127 Posts: 950
    Seems to me the mileage improvement of the GS450 is so meagre as to be negligible. It's embarrassing, really, to charge a $6K premium for what--an annual savings of about $500 at 12,000 miles/year?

    I initially overlooked something (that it seems you did, as well) regarding mpg and price.... The price of the upcoming 450H will be low-$60s with city/hwy mpg at 27/28, which is around $6k more than a fairly well-equipped GS430 -- the V8 -- with fuel economy of 18/25. The 450H will be around $15k more than the GS300 with mpg of 22/30.

    So we're actually combining two models in our comparison to the GS450H....
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Posts: 767
    Easy now, all I say is the GS450H will be my top choice for as the replacement vehicle when in about a year time. I don't know much about the car.I also don't know if the $6000 difference comparing to a GS430 is due only to the fact that this is a hybrid. I do know that I like to drive a competent LPS and if I can get a somewhat unique one at a premium so be it.
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Posts: 767
    The only real purpose of the GS450h seems to be to give the person who wants to be able to say "I drive a hybrid" something that is still a powerful luxury car that makes no real compromises (other than trunk space). They only expect about 2000 sales a year, so there probably wont be a lot of those people. i>

    You are probably right. With such low number, these cars might become collector's items :surprise:
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,049
    Someone help me figure this out.

    At what price per gallon and how many miles per year and how many years will it take to make this GS450h work from an economic point of view, let alone a "green" point of view?

    Although I do believe $3.00 gallon as a base price nationwide is hardly a long time in the future fantasy, what makes the "h" attractive battery-wise? Are the batteries "permanent?" Are the batteries NOT a land fill issue as I have been reading about?

    Other than a stop gap measure and perhaps a performance improving technology (accelerative performance) what on earth would make one spend MORE for the "h" car based on what we know today and even what we think will happen over the next 4 years.

    Consider this:

    Date Jan 6, 2004, Source Wall Street Journal.

    "In five years, the industry will have gone from 900 models with an average [useable] life cycle of eight years, to 1,500 models with an average life cycle of four years."

    Article: Detroit's Challenge.

    We are now 2 years into this -- 40% of the way there.

    Wonder how this will pan out.

    If the "cycle" or average life cycle drops to 4 years, how could these "h" cars ever hope to be anything more than an ecological statement, for they appear certainly to be neither an economic statement or a technology statement.

    And, BMW is thinking about STEAM POWER!

    I could just scream. Fuel Stratified Injection into a Turbo Diesel with lots of filters and stuff seems to be a heckuva lot more pragmatic.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    And there's also the XJ, which the X-type's look is basically a scaled down version of.

    The X-type may be a scaled down design look, but it is a P.O.S. and a failure for many reasons, and thank God Jaguar will end it soon. The X-type could NEVER be in the same league that the XJ is in. The XJ, in its latest generation, is actually (and FINALLY) a terrific car that is, unfortunately, forced to live past an old reputation. Let there never be any confusion. Night and Day.

    Other than the design cues, the similarity is as real as this:

    There's always the Camry which is a scaled down version of the Lexus LS.

    Another ridiculous idea, don't you agree?

    TagMan
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,775
    I don't believe that any of the hybrid vehicles are practical from a money savings pov, nor are they particularly good for the environment. I think the word here is "bill of goods". I love Toyota (Lexus) automobiles but I am not buying into the hybrids. Please sell me one of those Toyota diesels that they sell in Europe!!

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460

  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    The Lexus GS 430 trunk is already a joke-the narrowest opening I have ever seen- totally impractical.
    The new 450h, believe it or not, has only 7.5 cubic feet of trunk space compared to the already inadequate 13 cubic feet of the GS430-that alone disqualifies this vehicle from serious consideration for me.
    If I want a vehicle with a small trunk in this price range, the Porsche Boxster would be the car for me.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    Although I'm no big fan of the GS, I think that the GS450h is actually the first hybrid that makes sense from an economic point of view.

    BTW, pricing has been announced, and it is $54,900. Zero to 60 is 5.2s, so it kills the GS430 in that regard, even though one is technically a V6 and the other a V8. Also, the GS430 may have a lower starting price, but the GS450h has a lot more standard features, such as:

    Electronic Power Steering (EPS) with Variable Gear Ratio Steering (VGRS), electrically powered air conditioner, power moonroof and power rear sunshade, heated/ventilated front seats, rear side airbags, rain-sensing wipers, Intuitive Park Assist, rear back-up camera, 18-inch alloy wheels.

    A fully loaded GS430 with Navi/ML is $59,000. A fully loaded GS450h with Navi/ML will be about $59,000 as well.

    So, for about the same price, you get a faster AND a more fuel efficient car. (Of course, the trunk opening is still laughable and the trunk size is even smaller now with the battery.)

    Even against other V8's in this class, the GS450h does great:

    $59,000 fully loaded
    0-60: 5.2s
    EPA: 28/27

    What V8 sedan in this class gives you this combination of class-leading acceleration and class-leading fuel efficiency at this price?

    http://pressroom.toyota.com/Releases/View?id=TYT2006022863558
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    What V8 sedan in this class gives you this combination of class-leading acceleration and class-leading fuel efficiency at this price?

    Answer: Various turbodiesels that are sold in Europe and will hopefully sell soon in North America.(BMW 535d and the Audi A6 TDI)

    Nor do I mean to re-trigger a hybrid versus diesel dispute in this forum.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,049
    A stock Audi A8L 4.2 Turbo diesel driven on real roads, with traffic and everything -- went from London to Wales and back on a single tank of retail diesel fuel purchased at a petrol station in London.

    The car was driven using every possible technique to maximize economy. But it was a STOCK HUGE Mega-sized Lux car (that happens to be a spirited performer and also have a trunk large enough for a small family of 4 -- and a big trunk opening.)

    It achieved 40+MPG.

    Maybe I am crazy Miranda, but this was documented and broadcast.

    It makes one wonder what would or could be if we had access to even the stock engines without hybrid assistance, etc in LPS sized cars -- 45MPG, more?

    Almost a cake and eat it too scenario.

    Moreover, we have KNOWN petrol reserves on US soil that would permit current use to continue without additional discoveries or additional technologies for 100 years.

    No batteries, YET, can even come close for even remotely close money.

    I often describe myself as the Lunatic Fringe or Screaming Voice in the Wilderness as it applies to my passion for manual transmissions and AWD LPS cars -- this however is enough to get me put away in a rubber room.

    Sure, our diesel here in Vaspucciland isn't quite as PURE as the stuff they can swill over on the other side of the Atlantic -- but this is not even remotely close to a technological stretch.

    The paucity of such vehicles here AND the lack of a public DEMAND for same must demonstrate the power of our media and marketing to obfuscate.

    WOW!

    And the heck of it is, this GS450h will probably "get away with it." At least if the "it" is in any way a suggestion that this is a green thing to do (green being both the color of money and the symbol for ecologically sound cars.)

    I'm all for HP cars and I grant the review of the "h" from the accelerative urge point of view is impressive and attractive. Ever read a similar review of one of these high zoot TD's?

    Cake and eat it too? :confuse:

    Perhaps. :surprise:
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    The turbo diesels are nice and dandy, but they're not available here...

    The GS450h is faster, much more fuel efficient, and cheaper than most V8 LPS's. Dunno why a lot of posters would dismiss it so readily, useless trunk notwithstanding.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Dunno why a lot of posters would dismiss it so readily

    Why?

    1)Real world 22mpg is not what I call fuel efficient? MB E320CDI is available in N. America and is far more fuel efficient .

    2)The heaviness of a GS450H weighs down its handling dynamics

    3)Added complexity adds to service costs in the future(and if you want to save money by going to an independent mechanic, good luck--especially if battery/hybrid issues arise)

    4)Toyota hybrids are known to have software problems

    5)If you live in a cold winter area of this continent, fuel mileage will suffer far more than a non-hybrid.

    6)If you do mainly highway driving then a non-hybrid car may be just as fuel efficient

    7)High price label

    8) If you want to sincerely save gas with a GS450H then you will have to drive it like a timid centenarian great-great-great grand mother.

    9) If you are into full-throttle driving then expect the GS450H to burn gas almost as much as a V8.

    and last but not least

    10)Awful trunk space

    So again what is there to like about the GS450H, especially when compared to a MB E320 CDI?
  • rayngrayng Posts: 70
    I have several reasons to prefer the gs450h over the e320cdi:

    1. No matter how great diesels are, there aren't enough gas stations nearby. When there are diesel stations, prepare to get stuck in line behind pickup and commercial trucks with huge gas tanks.

    2. Lexus service and reliability which by comparison to the e class has been superior.

    3. At least in L.A.-- a clearly green and liberal town, it's cool to drive a hybrid. Don't let the Hollywood liberals fool you, many los angelenos like myself are about image and not substance. ;) So do we really care if we're saving gas? Maybe not. At least we're driving a hybrid. How's that for trendiness?

    4. 0-60 at 5.2 is pretty good, at least .3 better than the new ls460.
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Posts: 767
    Thanks for info jrock65. This makes a lot more sense to me now. Maybe in a year time Lexus can do something to improve the trunk space issue i.e. smaller and lighter batteries, but this is not a deal breaker for me. My Subaru wagon will handle the cargo run trips quite easily. I will need to test drive one to see for myself.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    1)Real world 22mpg is not what I call fuel efficient? MB E320CDI is available in N. America and is far more fuel efficient.

    C&D got 24 mpg for the E320 CDI.

    2)The heaviness of a GS450H weighs down its handling dynamics.

    The GS450h weighs about 150 lb. more than the E320 CDI. I'm not a fan of the over-boosted handling GS to begin with, so I'll give you that the GS450h isn't going to win any track awards.

    3)Added complexity adds to service costs in the future(and if you want to save money by going to an independent mechanic, good luck--especially if battery/hybrid issues arise)

    I'll take a Lexus GS450h over a MB E320 CDI any day of the week when taking wagers on overall future reliability.

    4)Toyota hybrids are known to have software problems

    See above.

    5)If you live in a cold winter area of this continent, fuel mileage will suffer far more than a non-hybrid.

    True. But it'll still be far better than all other V8's in this class.

    6)If you do mainly highway driving then a non-hybrid car may be just as fuel efficient

    The GS450h will still get far better highway mpg than all other V8's in this class.

    7)High price label

    The price of a similarly equipped GS450h is lower than any other car in its class, except the M45.

    8) If you want to sincerely save gas with a GS450H then you will have to drive it like a timid centenarian great-great-great grand mother.

    No, even if you drive it hard, you'll still get much better mileage than other V8's.

    9) If you are into full-throttle driving then expect the GS450H to burn gas almost as much as a V8.

    No, you'll burn as much as a V6, because you'll be driving mainly on the gas engine, which is a detuned version of the 3.5L GR V6 in the IS350.


    10)Awful trunk space

    No argument there.

    So again what is there to like about the GS450H, especially when compared to a MB E320 CDI?

    E320 CDI v. GS450h is a faulty comparison to begin with because the MB has the same acceleration as other V6's, while the GS450h has the same (actually better) acceleration as other V8's

    C&D got 7.1s 0-60 for the E320 CDI. That seems kinda slow, and I think that the E320 CDI can achieve about 6.5s. Even so, that's comparable to other V6's in this class. Still WAY slower than the 5.2s of the GS450h.

    The GS450h shouldn't be compared to V6 cars, because even though it technically has a V6, it's really in the same league as the other V8's.
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Posts: 767
    A stock Audi A8L 4.2 Turbo diesel driven on real roads, with traffic and everything -- went from London to Wales and back on a single tank of retail diesel fuel purchased at a petrol station in London.

    The car was driven using every possible technique to maximize economy. But it was a STOCK HUGE Mega-sized Lux car (that happens to be a spirited performer and also have a trunk large enough for a small family of 4 -- and a big trunk opening.)


    Mark, I would love to see this TD Audi available in Canada for comparison when I shop for my next LPS. I don't think you should lose your cool over the fact that no one is promoting td in North America because it WILL be here if it were the true competition for Lexus's hybrid.
  • bdr127bdr127 Posts: 950
    The new 450h, believe it or not, has only 7.5 cubic feet of trunk space

    Holy crap!!! Even a BMW Z4 has 8.5 cubic feet of trunk space!
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,049
    Fuel quality seems to be an issue.

    Market perception, less so in the LPS class, is also an issue, but in this one aspect, there seems to be some growing momemtum (slowly growing) supportive of the notion of "CLEAN" diesel technology.

    Audi, too, is attempting to win some races with diesel powered cars, certainly to draw attention to the performance capabilities that a contemporary diesel can bring to the table.

    In the US there has been a stigma, slowly fading, about diesels.

    I rented an E class Mercedes in Munich and drove it on the autobahn for a day -- so what? Hmmmm? It was a turbo diesel -- it was quiet, quick, and fast.

    After driving it essentially full throttle (I was comfortably able to exceed 200kph and easily average 180) from Munich to Garmisch -- the fuel level still read full.

    Three people and luggage in the car.

    All three of us remarked -- "this would sell in the US, too bad it is in a Mercedes." Were it in a Bimmer or Audi, plus the Merc, the sales, we were convinced would happen.

    Clean diesel + "high perormance" LPS diesel cars could change the market's perception.

    Or, the price of hybrids could be slashed say, 10%+ and offer ONE free battery replacement, which would perhaps make them interesting.
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Posts: 767
    Holy crap!!! Even a BMW Z4 has 8.5 cubic feet of trunk space!

    Can the Z4 carries 2 or 3 people with some luggage in its trunk? :surprise:

    I looked at more pics of the new GS and thought that they can do better with different tail lights.
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Posts: 767
    I used to own a gasoline turbo charged Mazda. While it was a hoot to drive, I found that the engine components deteriorated so quickly after only 3 years and about 80k Km. I think it was the excess heat and high compression pressure. I wonder if turbo diesel would have similar issues?
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