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Luxury Performance Sedans



  • mariner7mariner7 Posts: 509
    You bet. You've to understand, before any new Lexus comes out, its fans come out in force to say how it's the new standard and going to eat the competition alive.

    Now GS is falling behind the long-dissed Infiniti, it's payback time. And the time for the IS is coming too!
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    True. The new GS just before it came out was being touted by Lexus management as the new "5 killer." Needless to say, anticipation was high.
    What a laughing stock!
    Can you believe anything those guys say?
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,047
    Infiniti, not Lexus has "caught the scent" of the 5 series. This may be harsh, but I think I would rather have the STS -- especially after having driven one at the Car and Driver Road and Track "editor for a day" affair.

    The Lexus (NOT the new GS, to be fair and fully disclose) was way too cushy. The last gen GS was certainly a quality car and probably as has been duly noted reliable (more than the rest) -- Lexus, thus far, seems to be less interested in performance. Someone has to scratch that itch and by all accounts they do it very well, indeed.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    If I couldn't swing a good deal on the 545, I would have gone with the M35.
    I found it had plenty of power, making the M45 superfluous.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,047
    And the M45 @ $5 gallon for gas is Thirsty! :cry:
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Posts: 359
    GS has bombed the sales charts, and it was expected. The styling is so hideous,

    1. The headlights on GS are like somebody plucked out their eyeballs and running for help here and there. The serial killer headlights on 5 are at least intimidating.

    2. The C-pillar and the overall shoulder line is too meaty and lardy. The sleekness in lines is just not there.

    3. handling is way off the mark, I guess they should put the IS engineer in charge of GS and IS both next time and

    4. HIRE a GOOD DESIGNER for christ's sake. poach it from aston martin or wherever but do something. FAST!!
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Posts: 767
    My Subaru Impreza is actually quite sporty in term of driving fun without the gas guzzling penalty. It runs on regular gas, all season tires that would last 50K miles. It'd go around corners as quickly as most of these much heavier LPS with emphasis on the P. However, when I get tire of all this sportiness (after driving it about three days in a row), then back to the luxurious GS I go.
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Posts: 359
    I think M45 shape has improved greatly compared to previous generation M (which was probably the most hideous infiniti ever), but its still way behind the sleek lines of E-class.

    The design looks like a stocky foot-ball player, but in this class what they need is a sleek swimmer.

    I hope they get it right next time or its doom for M.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I wouldnt call the GS a "bomb" just yet. It was in 3rd place until recently, and its still ahead of the A6, STS, and RL (now that's a marketplace bomb). The GS300 is currently stuck with back-of-the-pack power, which doesn't do the AWD version any favors. The upcoming GS350 and 460 could definitely improve sales.

    I would call this GS a "miss", but not a disaster. Hopefully Lexus will take steps to make the car better before 2014.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    How is it doom for M? The M is the best looking and best handling Japanese LPS, and the sales are reflecting that. I think Infiniti is doing just fine.
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Posts: 359
    M does not get even one third of buyers coming to 5 and E, and is just a disaster.

    Have you looked at the last 5 year sales figures for GS and compared them to 5 and E.

    Sales is the king, and if we go by that measure, M and GS are still way behind.

    Comparing M's sales in 2005 with 2004 is just not going to do wonders.
  • bartalk3bartalk3 Posts: 692
    As gas climbs past $3.00 and heads for $4, and if that sticks, fuel economy is going to become a factor, even among luxury/performance buyers. If so, the M35/M45 are going to suffer, because they have notably poor gas mileage, worse than most of the other cars discussed here, except, perhaps, the RL which weighs in at nearly 4,000 pounds.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Sales is the king, and if we go by that measure, M and GS are still way behind.

    So I guess by that measure, bankrupt GM is 20 times more "kingly" than Porsche, the most profitable car company on the planet?

    I personally think the 5 series is a superior car to the M or GS, but I wouldn't rely on sales figures to tell me that, but rather my own driving impressions. And I also think that "sport" and automatic transmissions are mutually exclusive, but even within the 5 series, 85%+/- of the buyers opt for automatics. So be careful to extrapolate too much from sales vloumes or you might conclude we should all drive automatic Camrys - I'd shoot myself first.
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Posts: 359

    So no, I did not forget profits. GM is a king without the queen and that is bad, very bad.

    BMW is the king with a statuesque queen,
    and so is Toyota and Chrysler (these days).

    So when you are talking about the king, dont miss your queen ;)
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I may be personalizing too much, but when I consider what my next sedan might be, the BMW 5-series is still the "driver's choice". A facelift of the E-class won't help win me over. A couple of AMG engineers taking a long enough break from their quest to produce a 1,000+ horsepower E77 to focus on a sportier chassis, better steering and, most of all, short throw 6-speed for an E500 model would do the trick. But I'm not turning red holding my breath.

    Well Habitat1 we've had this conversation before and I think you'll just have to realize that Mercedes and BMW are different and thats pretty much the way it will always be. There wouldn't be a market for a 6-speed in a E500 in the U.S. market. The better chassis/steering I think they've done with the FL or at least that is what they've said, but again they aren't aiming for an outright 5-Series competitor. A Mercedes just isn't for you, now enjoy that Porsche! ;)

    There appears to be a sea of choices for someone that wants a "nice" driving, powerful luxury sedan like an A6, M35/45, E350/500, RL, GS, Jaguar, etc. But if you are inclined to go for a 550i 6-speed like I would be, there are NO other choices. I'd take a 530i 6-speed sport long before I'd take anybody else's V8.

    This is true as far as V8s go in this class so I agree here. If you want to row your own gears you're correct here too. No argument from me.

    So, what's the wager?

    Nothing major just a "gentlemen's" bet on who will win the E vs. 5 sales race in 2006.

  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Will it? The V8 is now stronger, but the E500 wasn't exactly slow. As for the facelift, to me it looks nearly identical to last year, both inside and out. I dont think changes only the most diehard Benz fanatic will notice are enough for it to suddenly kill the 5 in sales.

    Yeah I think it will because along with those barely noticeable exterior changes they've repackaged the options and made more things standard (finally). They're getting a clue in that area now. It isn't all about the new engines and cosmetic changes, though the engines will add something for some folks for sure. True you'd have to be a Benz fan to notice the changes, but that is usually the case with most "facelifts" on any of the brands in this class.

    Oh, and not that I think it will "kill" the 5-Series in sales that won't happen. That is kinda overstating what I said. Me and Dewey just are having a little fun here trying to see who will outsell who this year. The killing is the the 5 and E do to most of the other cars in the segments as far as sales go.

  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I can't see anyone in his right mind paying a premium for a dog like the GS when so many better choices are out there.

    The GS has has very little interior room, limited head room, uncomfortable seats, very little trunk space, a ridiculously placed open-close panel containing necessary controls, fussy brakes, turn it with one pinky steering, cannot perform with its peers as demonstrated in comparo after comparo, and given all that, sells at a ridiculous premium.

    The name Lexus can take a vehicle just so far.
    It's about time Lexus humanely puts this vehicle to sleep.

    Scathing criticism've set off the circuits with that one!

  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    You bet. You've to understand, before any new Lexus comes out, its fans come out in force to say how it's the new standard and going to eat the competition alive.

    Oh Mariner7 why, why oh why did you state the obvious? :D

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    You're not making any sense. The M is a disaster? Since when? Are you saying that M cant match the sales of 5 and E combined? What is the point of that?

    We're not talking about 2001 GS sales, or sales of the last generation M45, which WAS a disaster.

    Considering how long the 5 and E have been dominating the LPS segment, I think the M is doing amazingly well. Infiniti has been seriously competing in this segment for less than a year. To expect a company like Infiniti which doesnt have the badge prestige, doesnt have the dealer network, and only totals maybe 100K sales a year to topple the segment's two 800lb. gorillas in less than a year on the market is rediculous.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Infiniti: 2417 M sales represents 25.1% of total Infiniti sales for April

    Lexus: 2336 GS sales represents 9.4% of total Lexus sales for April

    Acura: 1031 RL sales represents 5.3% of total Acura sales for April

    Despite the brand selling less than half the number of cars in April compared to Acura and Lexus, the M beat the GS and crushed the RL. Please explain to me how the M is a "failure".
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