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Luxury Performance Sedans



  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Posts: 359
    The problem with GS is that in size, softness and bland design it rivals the ES. So the customer thinks for a moment and then goes for the ES.

    ES sales: 65-70K /year
    GS sales: 15-20 K/year.

    One solution is to retire the ES altogether since it wont sell outside US anyway (and introduce higher camry trims to make-up for the sales) and make GS sexier and sportier.

    Lexus cannot afford to be US centric anymore as it takes the plunge into global market place.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Where are you getting these figures for GS and M? Have you been looking at their monthly reports? You are implying that the E and 5 are averaging at least 4600 sales a month (which the E often misses quite badly), and yet you seem to think that the GS and M are selling like the RL, when in reality they are selling 26,000 to 28,000 cars a year.

    First GS was 10-15K, now its 15-20K in your next post. Which is it?
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Posts: 767
    Well if that is the case then the GS450h isn't going to help the overall sales picture for the GS line. Plus the GS450h is limited to like what 2K units, hardly enough to make a difference.

    If they averaged about 200 more sales to otherwise non-GS buyers due to this model per month from now until year end (2000/7 = 285), that should be enough to take back the third spot from the M. Then the new engines for the regular GS plus any face lift should continue the sales support.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Well we'll see but those sales may be at the expense of the GS430/460. I really don't see the point of the GS450h when I really think about it, especially when the GS460 comes along...but that is another story. I just don't see the GS having staying power like the E or 5-Series. I think the M will take its spot for the next few years simply because it is more exciting car, just a fresher entry IMO. Then again who knows the M might just fade away after its 15 minutes are up, but the decent staying power of the G35 says otherwise.

  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Posts: 767
    The problem with GS is that in size, softness and bland design it rivals the ES. So the customer thinks for a moment and then goes for the ES.

    IMO, the GS is nothing like the ES. It does have a sporty component to it that the ES or LS don't. It has everything that a Lexus should have to go with that sporty side. It may not be enough to be compared with the more serious LPS with emphasis on the P, but it fills a gap in the Lexus line up nicely.
    I think Merc1 is right that one of the draw backs is that the GS has been priced too closely with the LS.
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Posts: 767
    Once the GS350 and GS460 are available, Lexus could up the ante with a GS500h or GS600h(?).
    Both BMW and Benz have more than 2 models in the 5 and the E series which probably contributes to higher sales numbers i.e. something for every taste...
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    This is true...

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,069
    . . .now that the talking heads and politicos are all abuzz about gas prices alternative fuels, off shore drilling and alchemy, one would expect the readily available information pertaining to diesels would surface on ABC, Bloomberg, CBS, CNBC, CNN, FOX, MSNBC, NBC, the Daily Show and Countdown with Keith Oberman.

    Instead there was a 3.76 second quote from our Prez indicating that maybe we might want to consider extending and/or strengthening the case for tax credits for hybrids.

    Buried in the report -- which was mostly about the outrage of the consumer and their political leaders (of both parties) on price gouging -- was a statement which essentially MEANT (but did not quite say) hybrid sales, even with incentives, have been unimpressive.

    I am not opposed to new technologies. I also am in favor of exploiting and improving current technologies.

    The evidence, thus far, is overwhelming that we could IMMEDIATELY reduce our dependance upon Middle Eastern oil (which we are told is a laudable goal, right?) by rapidly ramping up our adoption of diesel motivation (check out Europe's adoption rate and check out what the EPA says the impact of even a minority utilization of diesel engines in our cars and trucks could mean.)

    A great disservice is apparently being perpetuated on the NA public -- and that is the lack of "news stories" extolling the possibilities and outcomes of using this reliable (and apparently cheaper to build and cheaper to operate) technology.

    We may well all be driving cars that use electric motors sometime in the future -- and because there IS promise there, we should not stop pursuing this technology.

    However, we should be talking about what we can realistically do "now."

    With 70% diesel LPS penetration (and an overall 33% diesel adoption) in Europe as a backdrop, there are so many questions that are raised by the lack of information broadcast by "the Media."

    This is almost tantamount to having a side-effect free cure for a disease or condition and not shouting it from the electronic rooftops.

    My upper-middle class neighbors all gather from time to time in the new home theater and bar of one of our ilk and bemoan the $3.00+ gas prices our Audis, Bimmers and Infinitis require. When I mention diesels to these mostly 40 something MBA's they universally look at me as if I had six heads (I have but four.)

    I explain, as I do here, the cost of acquisition and operation, the EPA statements, the fuel costs and lifetime fuel costs (assuming $3.00 per gallon is just a foretelling of things to come), the PERFORMANCE and LUXURY, the diesel durability reputation and on and on; and, you know what? these guys, whilst swilling their Premium Beers (Amstel Light, you know since we are trying to avoid the spare tire) say, "If all this stuff is true, Mark, why in the wide wide world of sports isn't THIS THE TOPIC regularly and frequently on the news programs from the TODAY SHOW to BILL O'REILLY to THE DAILY SHOW to the COLBERT REPORT?

    Why indeed.

    One more time: "I did not have sex with that" No No, wait a minute -- "LPS cars will be the logical and practical place to immediately offer high performance diesel motivation -- followed within a year or two by the trickle down and availability across all makes and models."

    What the heck are we waiting for?

    I want my hot rod, fuel sipping LPS car -- NOW, well OK how about 2007?

    The industry and the media have their heads up their -- noses! :confuse:
  • mariner7mariner7 Posts: 509
    IMO Lexus as a brand appeals mostly to a certain class of buyers, who prefer comfort and willowy rides, so all the engine combinations won't help GS and IS that much.

    Before GS introduction, I said on Edmunds, if I were the GS product manager, I'd sorely tempted to make it as soft and luxurious as possible, because that'd play to the strength of the Lexus appeal.

    Just look at the Toyota sales leaders (Camry, Avalon, Corolla). Every single one is the softest ride in its class. Lexus should've made GS softer than STS or S-type, then it'd have a pretty chance of being the 3rd best seller in its class. As it is, I don't think it has any chance of overtaking M again.
  • anthonypanthonyp Posts: 1,857
    The past experiences I have had with Diesel, I use to have to change the oil every hundred hours ...I was wondering if they have been able to extend the oil change time in the newer model engines? Tony
  • bartalk3bartalk3 Posts: 692
    As often noted, diesel has a PR problem in this country because: a) people associate it with trucks; b) GM ruined its reputation by producing noisy, smelly, smoky, unreliable diesels in the, what, '70s? Plus they don't really know what it is and know that there aren't many diesel pumps in the gas stations they visit. Plus diesel is expensive, so people figure, what's the advantage?
  • bocatripbocatrip Posts: 194
    Let's think Toyota versus Nissan. Which car is top in it's class for quality control and overall customer satisfaction? Ok... Now let's do the same for Lexus and Infiniti. I own an Infiniti and let me say that it is a reliable car. However, after all the feedback, reading, and general observations I get from the Lexus population, I would be thinking towards Toyota/Lexus for my next purchase... in this case........ The GS300. I know the M35 has more power and handling pluses..HOwever, I think Toyota Motors has something going for it that no other manufacturer can get right. Loyalty, dedication to the product, and quality control that Nissan has never gotten quite right. Of course this is just my opinion. I'm going Lexus for my next choice. In this case.. the GS300 of GS350 when it arrives.
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Posts: 359
    very smart mariner7, Lexus should immediately hire people like you and promote you to Vice-presidentship. Then you should rush to make lEXUS ever softer so that it achieves sales nirvana.

    Great job mariner.
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Posts: 359
    Well, LS is way cut-rate thats true. GS is priced okay, they just need to inject pizzaz, passion, sexy styling, like they did for IS.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    If you're buying a GS just because its reliable, you're missing out. According to CR, the M is Infiniti's most reliable car, matching the GS.

    Incidentally, the M is also their top rated luxury sedan, while the GS is rated a rather pathetic 12th place, just two places from the bottom of the pack, and well below the LS, Mercedes S and E classes, 5 series, A6 and A8, STS, RL, and Jag XJ. Even the S-type, a car which basically no one likes, still managed to out rank the GS. If CR thinks your car is too boring for a good score, something is seriously wrong.

    Consider your Toyota v Nissan analogy. If the Altima were just as reliable as the Camry, would you still buy a Camry? The M is just as reliable as the GS. Why buy a GS?
  • bocatripbocatrip Posts: 194
    Reliability is just one factor in considering a Lexus. I feel that overall, body integrety and quality of materials and craftmanship is superior for the Lexus. If the M35 is anything like the G35 with regards to rattles, squeaks, weak paint, eating up tires(Coupe) and other annoying issues, I will go Lexus. I understand that even Lexus may have some issues and overall is not absolutely perfect,however it seems to be far superior to Nissan with regards to building a more solid car. Consumer Reports seems to love Lexus overall with most past models. Let's not forget that the M is a new car. The G35 got great reviews when it first came out. Check out how many TSBs (Technical Service Bulletins) this car has had. I think over 50 since it's inception. My girlfriend just bought a 06 G35 and they still don't get it right. It is a car that won't fail as far as break downs, but the quality is just not there compared to Toyota/Lexus. The GS300 might have failed in it's class compared to other cars with regards to performance, handling, and being oversophisticated with technology that limits it in those same areas, but I'm sure Lexus maybe rethinking that for it's future models. Well I guess though, Lexus is supposed to be Luxo and they were trying to make it competitive to the sportiness of Infiniti with the GS300/4430 and failed.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,069
    Recent ( 5+ years back) TDI's 7,500 miles between changes.

    Newer (less than 2 years back or so) TDI's 10,000 miles between changes.

    Diesel FAQ's Here
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,069
    In 2002, I first drove an Audi A4 2.5TDI with all the near lux stuff and a 6 speed transmission.

    Initially, I had no clue the car had anything other than the then current 3.0 gas engine -- except the car was quite a bit stronger off the line (must be gearing I thought.)

    I did find, quickly (by asking), that I was driving a turbo diesel. Inside the car there was virtually NO WAY to tell. No smell, sound, smoke, etc.

    Most of our local "quick stops" have at least one diesel nozzle (usually more.)

    Here in SW Ohio, diesel costs LESS than Premium Juice which most of these LPS car require.

    The published specs for "like" performance diesels from Audi, BMW and Mercedes, to name three, vs their gasoline counterparts generally shows the diesel versions accelerate slightly quicker and get at least 22% better mileage per gallon.

    The advantages are manifold.

    From a broader perspective, the adoption of diesel will have an initially unitended consequence: it will slow the outflow of money from "us" to middle eastern countries.

    Some non policital (economic, i.e.) types claim that oil money from "us" to middle eastern countries provides part of the requisite funding for all kinds of activities -- and some of those activities are "not helpful" to either economic or political "progress."

    Even broader, the adoption as a first step of diesels in LPS cars will ultimately trickle to the rank and file cars and serve to move us toward engergy independance and, according to the EPA, cleaner air to breath.

    What's the advantage?

    The question might be, "what's the disadvantage?"

    I submit it must begin in our "sought after" cars -- LPS cars. Grass roots diesel apparently has not worked, of course there is some merit to the argument that it hasn't been tried.

    Again, go here:

    All You Need to Know about Why Diesel?
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Oh I remember your position on the mattter very well. We've agreed on that before because I too think thats why the GS just doesn't sell good past that first year or so and look its happening again. Lexus buyers just don't care about sport at this level or above. Now the new IS is such an improvement compared to the previous car that it might be a while before it does a GS-like drop-off, but a new G35 is coming this fall so we'll see.

  • mariner7mariner7 Posts: 509
    GS is noticably smaller and lighter than its 3 main competitors. Relative lack of room would not be a deterrent to BMW's, but it'd be a bigger deal at Lexus.

    The main reason for being smaller and lighter is to have more agility. But the "world class" engineering at Lexus fails in this score; M and 5 beat it handily in the slalom. So GS pays the penalty without gaining any benefits.
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