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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    To that I would add:

    BMW 545i V8 automatic 18/26 MPG/EPA $60,000+
    Infiniti M 35 V6 automatic 18/25 MPG/EPA $47,000+
    BMW 530i I6 manual 21/29 MPG/EPA $47,500+

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • carnaughtcarnaught Posts: 1,569
    BMW 545i V8 automatic 18/26 MPG/EPA $60,000+
    Infiniti M 35 V6 automatic 18/25 MPG/EPA $47,000+
    BMW 530i I6 manual 21/29 MPG/EPA $47,500+


    Well, the 530i is more like $49,600+ but the manual is a different bird and with much less feaures for the 530i's almost base price, eh?
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Well, the 530i is more like $49,600+ but the manual is a different bird and with much less feaures for the 530i's almost base price, eh?

    The base price of a 530i is in fact $47,500. Yes, no? Well, I suppose you could really call it $48,195 with shipping. Where does the $49,600 come from?

    As far as features, yes, the base 530i does come with a few less goodies, however, it does come with one feature that isn't avalilble on the M at any price. Yup, you guessed it, the manual gearbox, an option that I would willingly pay thousands for. So, comparing a 530i manual with an M35 automatic as close as possible (i.e. both of them with "Sport" trim) to how I would configure them myself, the MSRP would be $55K for the 530i, and $51K for the M35. Of course I wouldn't even dream of buying a 530i for that price. Why? The European Delivery cost for that same $55K 530i is about $49K. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,049
    I'm with you -- and the difficulty here when we're talking about MSRP has, apparently, little to do with the tco (for the record total cost of ownership for "X" time or miles.)

    For reasons that have been hashed to death here, BMW appears to be in the car rental business.

    That is, BMW seems to encourage renting their cars for 4 years or 50 thousand miles or some number of months and miles that will not exceed either 48 or 50,000 respectively.

    While it IS accurate to state that the Infiniti M35X with Journey, Technology and the equivalent of the BMW 530xi sport package is somewhere between 3 and 5 thousand dollars less based on MSRP, here is what seems to happen:

    The monthly price for the BMW on a per thousand MSRP basis is lower than the Infiniti. The BMW has free maintenance for the 50K term.

    The BMW charges less for the stick shift than the auto and the stick isn't even offered on the M35X, at any price.

    The BMW gets better MPG's and has, in most markets, more magnetism.

    So, yeah, the BMW will be more money at pure MSRP, but equal to or less than the toc than the Infiniti AND can be had with a stick shift.

    Game, set, match BMW.

    Now to mess this nice neat little scenario up:

    The Audi A6 3.2 Sline is -- of the three (Audi 3.2 SLine, BMW 530xi with the sport package [that offers literally NO sporting/performance or ground effects bits and even requires extra $ for the high perf wheels/tires] and the Infiniti M35X with ground effects and extra cost 19" wheels but no sport suspension, no 6 speed transmission of any shifting quality, etc.) -- is, if one must have the autotrans (95%) the sportiest and arguably most sure footed.

    The SLine A6 3.2 (or 4.2 V8 if you feel the need for "more speed") is the only one of these cars that actually offers sport wheels/tires (in 18 or 19 inch diam), sport suspension and sport trim. The other cars, from BMW and Infiniti do not offer sport suspensions -- period.

    One may certainly argue that the Audi needs the sport suspension the most of the three -- and there certainly is some evidence that says, "yup -- the Audi is NOSE heavy and it needs the uprated suspension and tires to counteract its native desire to understeer." Guilty as charged -- but I submit the Sline offering more than offsets most of the front end porkiness of the Audi.

    BMW must be offering Audi a pass, this once, since they offer a stick shift in a well balanced but under tired and under suspended AWD sports sedan.

    The BMW with the 18" upgraded wheels/tires in stick shift guise is probably THE choice of a driver wishing maximum control and high levels of performance.

    But, their statistics must show that folks buying AWD BMW's are even less likely to order a stick shift than those buyers selecting normal 530is.

    My BMW sales rep friends claim two things: they will NOT order a 5 series with a stick shift PERIOD (if it is for inventory); and, that every 530xi stick that is ordered and the buyer renegs, is immediately snatched up.

    I ask the logical (to me) follow up question, "why if 5 series cars with stick shifts sell more rapidly than auto versions, (but apparently NOT rapidly enough to 'risk' buying even one per month for inventory purposes?) not order some small quantity for inventory purposes?!)

    This at a dealer that sells 100 cars a month overall.

    I'll either get a 5 (or maybe 3) AWD stick (and hope they will offer a true sport suspension) or an A6 or A5 SLine and hope they offer a stick shift or at the very least a DSG transmission.

    I remain certain I would have been happy with the M35X that I "almost" bought, yet, today, somehow, someway, "nothing seems to satisfy quite like Beef."

    (excuse me, like a German sedan.) :blush:
  • quemfalaquemfala Posts: 107
    Am I missing something on this thread? Comparing a V-8 to a 6 cylinder?? Sorry, it's getting too confusing for me. 8's vs. 8's, 6's vs. 6's and $'s vs $'s. Now that's something to which I can relate.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Mark,

    As you well know, I'm effectively the "Loyal Opposition" when it comes to AWD, and as such I cannot see ever being in the market for an AWD car. ;-) That having been said, the A6 S-Line certainly narrows the gap between the A6 and the 5er when AWD is under consideration (as compared to a FWD A6 vs. a 530i SP with a stick). In the AWD scenario, the A6 should well have the advantage over even a "Tarted Up" eighteen inch wheeled 530xi (which cannot be had with a Sport Suspension). What these two come down to is better suspension for the A6 and a better transmission (i.e. one with three pedals) for the 530xi. That then leads to the "Tie-Breaker", which in my mind is the whole ED thing. Mrs. Shipo and I enjoyed our 530i ED experience SOOOOO much that we simply cannot wait to do it again.

    Winner: the 530xi via a tie-break. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • james27james27 Posts: 433
    When I was looking for a new car last year, regardless of performance and features, the only one that I comfortably fit in was the Infinity M. The insistence that a car in this class requires a sunroof, usurping as much as nearly 3" of headroom just meant I needed the bigger car. People are getting taller and wider...cars need good headroom. It is also very perplexing that some of the huge things out there have the seat cushion so high that even with their huge size, they've got less headroom than many much smaller vehicles. Until the other companies see this as an issue, I refuse to buy one. My previous car was a 1998 Audi A6, special ordered without a sunroof. While you can order one now, most of the desireable options can only be had with a sunroof. This is true with most of the other brands, if offered at all.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I believe Infiniti will be the first LPS to have all wheel drive on their V-8.

    Not quite. The '00 Audi A6 4.2 came only with Quattro all wheel drive, and Mercedes also offered the E430 4Matic that same year. The STS also offered AWD with the V8 when it launched, and the Volvo S80 V8 AWD came out last year. Infiniti has beaten Lexus and BMW, and of course Acura who has no V8 at all, but they are far from the first.
  • carnaughtcarnaught Posts: 1,569
    Where does the $49,600 come from?

    I configured the 530i with nothing but metallic paint and delivery to make it more comparable to the previous price comparison.

    hpowder's post (#7715) showed what one can get (a BMW 545, an 8 cylinder) to better the mpg an M35 Infiniti (a 6 cylinder). Then when Shipo introduced a base manual 530i into the price discussion, it brought in two more variables, a manual transmission and a base car vs. better equiped cars.

    Gentlemen, I'm not debating what car is better (BMW or M35), 6 vs.8 cylinders or auto vs. manual, but just pointing out that the 545's better gas mileage than an M35 comes at a sizeable price differential (my post #7723). Yes, one can cherry pick options and make my figures show an even greater or lesser price difference between the M35 and 545.

    (My disclaimer: I have both an '06 M35 and BMW. :shades: )
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,049
    Comparisons are apparently difficult to make for a variety of reasons:

    MSRP, number of cylinders, monthly cost to lease, performance, content, etc.

    It seems that one of the points was that the 6 cylinder Infiniti was similar in mileage to the 8 cylinder BMW.

    The value or merits of this data are certainly partially due to the value you place on horsepower, torque, accelerative performance, mileage and of course price (and even that is based on if you pay cash or lease, for it may seem to be cheaper to buy the car in cash even if the Mothly Payments are lower for the lease [another subject].)

    In any case, the data points seemed to me to tell a story -- a common sense story. And of course, common sense is ONLY common to ONE person, in this case, YOU.

    Read it and define it as it is most appropriate to you, that is.

    If, for instance, you were most interested in mileage + 0-60 times, you might feel the BMW was a better choice.

    The apparent higher cost of the BMW may or may not be important depending on how you afforded this purchase.
  • carnaughtcarnaught Posts: 1,569
    If, for instance, you were most interested in mileage + 0-60 times, you might feel the BMW was a better choice.

    The apparent higher cost of the BMW may or may not be important depending on how you afforded this purchase.


    BMW's often with their higher prices represent also great value when their favorable leases are taken into account.
  • bread8bread8 Posts: 16
    I just purchased an Infiniti g35 with 6-speed manual, aero pkg. and sunroof.I have driven the bimmer and M. The g35 is faster, racier and almost as roomy. True, there are no wooden surrounds, the stereo is not as good and perhaps the "class" factor isnt there. But, I will smoke both from a light and still get the same service that you do at the dealership for 10-20k less.

    Frankly, I cannot afford a 530 an M or even a 330. But my G is alot of car and one of those rare rwd sport-sedans with a manual and almost 300 hp for under 35k.
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Posts: 402
    I might be odd-person-out in this round of LPS discussion, but the BMW 530i was not a serious contender for my 2006 purchase. I loved both the 3-series and 5-series throughout the 1990s, but feel nothing when looking at or sitting in the new models.

    Of course, that has nothing to do with anyone's buying decision, except mine.

    If, however, I was buying a BMW, I (again, just me) would not go to Germany to pick it up. I believe earlier posts that suggest I could save $6,000 of MSRP. But, I could get something off MSRP right here at home, not use the money, time, or energy to fly to Germany and put myself up there. Plus, when I pick up a new car, I want to drive it home that day.

    I don't think any sizeable proportion of BMW buyers would take the ED route, even if every BMW dealer carefully explained every advantage of doing so. Therefore, when I read exchanges here in which BMW ED leases are put forward as a heavily-weighted variable in the buy-BMW equation, it seems to me to be apples and oranges for the vast majority of LPS buyers.
  • kyfdx@Edmundskyfdx@Edmunds Posts: 25,970
    ..for most people, ED is not realistic.... A great thing, if you have the desire and means to pull it off..

    But, even at normal stateside pricing, you can usually lease a BMW for less than the competing models, even if the competitor's MSRP is lower... You don't have to do ED to come out ahead.... throw in the included maintenance, and the cost to drive a BMW is fairly reasonable on an "apples to apples" basis..

    Moderator - Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I might be odd-person-out in this round of LPS discussion, but the BMW 530i was not a serious contender for my 2006 purchase. I loved both the 3-series and 5-series throughout the 1990s, but feel nothing when looking at or sitting in the new models.

    I'm with you, at least in regards to the 5 series. It may be more efficient than the M, and it may outperform it. However, I still can't stand the looks, and I think the interior is probably worst in class, except for perhaps the STS. I'll take the M.

    The new 3 is good, but it faces stiff competition from the next G35 and A4.
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Posts: 402
    That tallies with my experience pricing BMWs.

    I never found the cost of a BMW I was considering to be, in the end, a deterrent to buying or leasing it, when compared to 3-series or 5-series competitors I was considering alongside the comparable BMW.

    On the other hand, I have not always found BMW to be the most appealing (cost aside) choice. Sometimes, the discussion can take an implicit turn and we're talking as if it's a foregone conclusion that everyone would choose a BMW 5-series model if they only understood that it's as affordable as other LPS cars with which it competes. By contrast, the greater "refinement" of new BMW models combined with their filling up twice as many parking spaces in my office garage as Audi or Infinity made Audi and Infinity more appealing to me (as the BMW 5-series began to occupy a different niche in my mind than it did in the 1990s, that is, the ultimate commuting machine).
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    When I posted those numbers I didn't really look at the YTD numbers. The RL is on track to sell about half of its 20K a year goal. Everything else they have is down for the year except the TSX. That RDX can't come soon enough. Funny thing is that in the Acura press release they say that gas prices are slowing sales, but they expect their new SUVs to do great.

    The Jaguar S-Type which no one ever lists here anymore, has sold a whopping 3,627 units year to date, but it is their bestselling car. I imagine there are going to be some Jaguar dealer closings soon. The situation is more desperate than I thought.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    5-Series sales are phenomenal (what accounts for that?).

    Not sure, but Gary will tell you it is simply because it is the best car in the segment. I can't wait for the facelifted E to snatch this sales lead from the fiver. ;)

    M
  • jlbljlbl Posts: 1,333
    (Please, let me know whether you are interested or not in data like the following for you to evaluate the interest of diesel LPS in the USA)

    Speed control has been reinforced in Spain. As a consequence, my wife and I have got in recent times a couple of painful fines. So, in my last trip I have limited myself to legal speeds on highways (75 miles per hour, radars adjusted to flash at more than 82.85 miles•hour). This is the consume report of that trip.

    It was a 1,000 thousand-mile-long solitary ride and I had twice to go up and down from the see level to 5,000 feet.

    (The trip, for the shake of those who know Spain, was Bilbao-Saragosse-Madrid-Albacete-Madrid-Burgos-Bilbao.)

    Speed average along the 1,000 miles was 75.96 miles•hour, with occasional :blush: peaks of 87-up-to-93 miles•hour.

    With these restraints, consume was of 50.01 miles•gallon. :D

    It seems that the engine of my bimmer has easied itself after two and a half years of use and 40,000 miles of running! ;)

    Regards,

    Jose

    P.D. My bimmer is an E60 530d purchased in February 2004. That was 40,000 miles back. It cost € 45,000 of that time. As I have posted here before, it is six cylinders, turbocharged, with 4 injections (1,600 bares each) per cylinder and cycle. It gets 218 hp at 4,000 rpm and 368.75 lbs•foot torque at 2,000 rpm. Acceleration is 7.1 sec 0-100 km•h (62.14 miles•h). It weights 1,670 kg (734.82 lbs) with one 34-lb-passenger and 90% of tank capacity (European standards). The tank capacity is of 70 l (18.5 gallons).
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    I wss just showing that Infiniti has a long way to go in matching the efficiency of the BMW engines.
    Both the M35 and 45 get rather poor mpg from their V6 and V8 respectively.
    In this era of $3-plus gasoline, this is significant and may be an important factor in the slowing sales numbers.
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