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Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • james27james27 Posts: 433
    My numerous unscheduled stops to the dealer kept me from replacing my 98 A6 with a new one. Seals, radiator, water pump, suspension pieces worn out, and other things at less than 50K miles just ruined the long-term perspective of trying another one. Along with that, the sunroof just took up too much headroom. Yes, I know it is possible to buy one without, but when I looked, there were all of 3 in the entire country plus, most of the goodies can't be had without one. Obviously, my single experience with one car does not indicate a trend, but CR did indicate it was less reliable than others.

    Can't say anything on newer ones, or even others from that year. The lack of sufficient headroom was the clincher. I just refuse to drive laying down, and then it would be either stretching forward for the steering wheel, or jamming my knees when lifting to hit the brake.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Apparently thousands of folks are thumbing their collective noses at JD and the auto mags and are making the Bangle 5 series one of the greatest success stories in automotive history.

    Uhh...wonder what happened to the auto media's darling, the Infiniti M?
  • reality2reality2 Posts: 303
    I have the same experience. I have had nine Audis and they were all trouble-free. My current three are without question the best, absolutely no problems or drama. This is what I go by and not what someone thinks they can tell me is correct since I am the one actually experiencing the ownership. So much for surveys.
  • calhoncalhon Posts: 87
    According to JD or CR we are both statistically classified as an endangered species doomed to the path of extinction.

    Well, neither the JD Power nor CR reliability data says that. On the contrary, the data says few problems is the normal experience with almost all recent models.

    However, both organizations make a mountain out of a mole hill in order to generate revenue. CR is particularly misleading, because they generally provide only relative ratings, describe below average as synonymous with poor or bad, and use loaded symbols, etc.

    The seemingly simple way the results are presented plays to the emotions and innumeracy of readers, who think they understand, when in fact they have jumped to completely wrong conclusions.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I don't know if I'd call a 7K unit lead over the E-Class "overwhelming" or "annihilating".

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Uhh...wonder what happened to the auto media's darling, the Infiniti M?

    All things considered, the M is doing very well. Keep in mind that all of NNA is hugely down in the last few months, and thats going to hurt M sales, no matter how good it is. They never expected the M to be selling at the 5\E level. If it did, it would represent 60%+ of Infiniti's total sales.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Good, because I'm thinking about the possibility of a Q7 somewhere down the road. Best looking SUV out there, IMO.
  • jlbljlbl Posts: 1,333
    Very interesting point that that you made on using American or Imperial units. I am sorry of my delay in answering that, but here it is how my calculations were made:

    1 gallon = 3.78533 liters

    1 mile = 1,6093472 kilometers

    1 libra = 2.2046223399 kilograms

    Are they US or British? I am not sure

    Regards,

    Jose
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    "They never expected the M to be selling at the 5/E level."

    I don't know about that. When the car's motto is "built to out-perform", I would like to believe there is a double-meaning: in driving characteristics and in sales.

    There is no doubt in my mind, the Infiniti M was built specifically as Japan's answer to the BMW 5 series.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    Infiniti's clearly stated sales goal before launch 24,000 annual sales for the M. They exceeded that the first year, and they're on pace to exceed that this year.

    It's not realistic to expect the M to outsell the 5. Like it or not, the name "BMW" helps to sell the 5. The M has to sell solely based on the merits of the car itself. It gets no help from the name "Infiniti". Also, this is Infiniti's first foray into this segment. BMW has established customers who've been buying the 5 series for decades.

    Not saying which car is better or worse, but there are many factors that come into play when it comes to sales other than the merits of that particular model.

    Toyota could build the world's best full-sized pickup ever, but it still would get outsold by the F series pickup 5 to 1. Brand/model loyalty is a powerful thing.
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Posts: 402
    I agree that coverage of BMW in the auto mags is often silly. The often-quoted Car and Driver (May, 2005) "sports-luxury" comparison awarded the Infiniti M45 first place, but almost entirely on the basis of rapid acceleration, rather than styling or an anti-iDrive bias. The M45 was put up against the BMW 530i (which meant putting a 335 horse-power Infiniti M model in a drag-strip race against the 225 hp version of the 5-series). Also emphasized was the M's large rear seating space.

    Similarly, while Motor Trend's comparison test rated two Japanese cars (Acura and Infiniti) ahead of BMW (third place), there was no Bangle-bashing: "The fifth-generation BMW 5 Series, with its flame-cut flanks and take-no-prisoners suspension, hit the ground running in the 2004 model year. Here's a thoroughbred, the product of decades of setting the benchmark all other automaker's sport sedans aspire to. Just look at the stance, the way the body sits on the chassis, ready to pounce on any opportunity to show its stuff on a challenging stretch of road. The smoothness and flexibility of BMW inline-sixes are legendary, and the 225 horses of the 2979cc engine seem more spirited than their numbers might otherwise suggest. And BMW is one of the only automakers courageous enough to offer a six-speed manual gearbox in a $50,000 sedan."

    Also, if a potential buyer was to consult Consumer Reports to compare BMW 5-series, Audi A6, and Mercedes E-class, they would only find the BMW recommended, with the Mercedes and Audi dismissed as unreliable.

    So, I don't think the best way to characterize the BMW 5-series sales success is that it is being snapped up by savvy contrarian buyers who are thumbing their noses at CR and at critics of Bangle. BMW simply has the (well-earned) best place in the collective consciousness of buyers with $50,000+ to spend on a car. Mercedes and Audi have been trashed by CR and Mercedes' CEO has had to show up at auto shows promising to improve reliability. And except for Lexus, most buyers in the category targeted by this forum just don't think "Japanese car" when they look for a car with which they identify.
  • killerbunnykillerbunny Posts: 141
    I have the same experience. I have had nine Audis and they were all trouble-free. My current three are without question the best, absolutely no problems or drama. This is what I go by and not what someone thinks they can tell me is correct since I am the one actually experiencing the ownership. So much for surveys.

    When you travel by air (such as Boeing 777), the chance that it's going to crash is about 1 in 1 billion (not exact number, but on that order).

    Another imagined plane, with a rate of 1 in 1 million, is considered extremely unsafe statistically, even though it is still unlikely to happen to you.

    We all make our choices. I would personally choose that extra order of peace of mind, since it doesn't even cost more.
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Posts: 402
    "I have had nine Audis and they were all trouble-free. My current three are without question the best, absolutely no problems or drama. This is what I go by and not what someone thinks they can tell me is correct since I am the one actually experiencing the ownership. So much for surveys."

    I think you're correct, but not in the way your wording implies.

    You obviously love driving Audis and, having had no trouble with any of your previous Audis, you're strongly, perhaps immutably, inclined to buy more. That all makes sense.

    Your ownership experiences, however, would not be a reason for someone else to ignore survey data. The reason to ignore surveys would be that the methods of collecting, analyzing, reporting, or drawing inferences from the data are flawed. And many good arguments have been made on this forum to strongly suggest that CR and JDP reports are flawed, especially in that they suggest to readers that they will regret buying most German cars (since, collectively, German car owners have reported an average of 1.5 problems per vehicle, while Japanese car buyers have only reported 1.2 problems per vehicle -- I made up that approximation -- but it's not far off and I think you'll get what I mean).

    To me, the most persuasive part of your message is not "trust me and not surveys when I tell you your Audi will be trouble-free," but rather "hey, if you love what you see and feel when you test-drive an Audi, get it, and don't be dissuaded by surveys for which you cannot get access to the data and so are pretty limited to what the editors and researchers (of CR and JDP reports) tell you that you should think."

    On the other hand, as an earlier response (using airplane crash analogy) to your posting suggests, if there was unambiguous data available about car reliability and it showed conclusively that German cars broke down by the side of the road an average of twice a month, while no Japanese car had ever been reported to breakdown, then that would be something to consider.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Personally I would choose to fly with a Boeing 777 over a Soviet AH-10.

    As I arrive safely and unscratched at the airport I would choose to drive off with either a BMW or Audi versus any other car. :P
  • killerbunnykillerbunny Posts: 141
    Personally I would choose to fly with a Boeing 777 over a Soviet AH-10.

    As I arrive safely at the airport I would choose to drive off from the airport with either a BMW or Audi versus any other car.


    Not even a Porsche? :surprise:
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Ok, ok maybe a Porsche! And if push comes to shove I will accept driving a Ferrari even with its higher mortality rate (a mortality rate that is even higher than a Soviet AH10) :)
  • upuautupuaut Posts: 14
    US gallons are 3.78 litres, British imperial gallons are 4.54 litres. Miles and pounds are the same in USA and British systems. Are you saying you were using US gallons when you said you got 50 MPG in a diesel 5 series? That doesn't sound possible, that is what a Smart car gets.
  • upuautupuaut Posts: 14
    I totally agree that it is not realistic for the M to outsell the 5. Could Infiniti even make that many? Does their factory have the capacity? I think they would have to ramp up production slowly. Then there is the badge issue. Imagine what the sales would be like if BM had made the car we know as the M, and Infiniti had made the car we know as the 5. What chance would Infiniti have to outsell the BMW "5"? I say zero, because that car would have the little blue propeller on it.
  • upuautupuaut Posts: 14
    In a way it does make sense to compare the M45 and the 530, they are about the same $. Here in Canada (These are all CDN funds, from Infiniti and BMW websites)the M45 MSRP is $66k, the 530 $67.8k. The M35 is $56.4k, would be similar acceleration as the 530, but then the reveiwer would give it points for being $11k less.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Thats exactly what C&D spelled out in their comparo. It wasn't "V8 LPS comparison", it was $55K LPS comparison, and thats all you can get from BMW for $55K. Its not Infiniti's fault that they can offer the M45 for $55K. One could ask whether considering MSRP is relevant in a class of car where almost all sales are leases, but those were the rules.
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