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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    I wonder if too much energy is being put into the task of categorization...

    I have no doubt in my mind that the answer is yes.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 16,913
    I think both of you guys have been around long enough to know better.

    The reason so much energy goes into it is because the powers that be will slap you silly if you post off-topic. And its not that i'm saying they shouldn't ... its an all or none proposition. Do you really want folks here comparing their Kia to an M45? Without categorization, it will happen.

    '13 Stang GT; '86 Benz 300E; '98 Volvo S70; '12 Leaf; '08 Town&Country

  • Maybe we need a "Bang for the Buck" forum.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Whats the difference between Kia and Chrsyler? They both sell similar cars, and at least around here the dealerships are pretty similar. I do find it funny that your post implies "how dare Kia show its pathetic head around here", and yet for whatever reason, Chrysler is now a-ok. Suppose Kia started buying Chevy small block crate motors and stuffing them in their cars? Would you all then start demanding that the 400hp Optima be included? After all, dealership experience is a crapshoot, the Kia's materials are "close enough", and she sure is fast.

    You can stuff 500hp in a Sebring, or 300, or T&C if you want. They are still no better than Fords, or Hondas, or Kias for that matter.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Well I wasn't talking about the energy on Edmunds' end of things, rather, that of the posters. It is what it is so there's no use in fighting City Hall. You are right about not wanting to compare a Kia to an M45.

    By the way, there are threads on Edmunds where one can compare shoe laces to banana peels if one so desires.
  • We're both the "writers" and "readers" of this magazine. If the name of the magazine is LPS and the subtitle is "Lexus GS 430, Acura RL, BMW 5 Series, Volvo S80, Audi A6, Infiniti M35, Infiniti M45, Mercedes-Benz E-Class, Cadillac STS", then there would seem to be some consensually agreed upon responsibility to keep "editorial content" within the generally expected boundaries.

    We're in a funny position because, unless the managing editors (the hosts) declare that a thread is drifting outside the boundaries of the "magazine's" editorial scope, then anyone can post anything about any car (we had a brief foray into the Mazda CX-7, but that materialized more like a one-shot op-ed piece) and the only brake on the length of the thread is others ignoring it and moving on.
  • A few posts back, I expressed some confusion regarding the "common traits" that we all [or mostly all] could list and agree were LPS traits.

    I did use, purely as an example, a Chrysler 300 (in large part because I had test driven one recently) as the instigator of my confusion and to shape the question.

    I am not now nor then suggesting we alter the brands and models discussed here -- not suggesting we consider anything for inclusion (not Chrysler, not Kia.)

    I had assumed we might come up with some broad consensus as to the attributes that defined the list of cars at the top of this particular forum.

    MSRP and "amenities" (and perhaps the availability of either RWD or AWD) seem to be all I can glean from the responses.

    I am fine with dropping the topic since it either has caused a drifting of the subjects posted far from the LPS topic or perhaps because "no one knows" what an LPS car really is. My only real issue is that there must be "the next" LPS cars in the wings and what are they and how will we know?

    And, could one of these marquis fall from grace?:

    Acura
    Audi
    BMW
    Cadillac
    Infiniti
    Jaguar
    Lexus
    Mercedes

    & a possible inclusion of Volvo.

    As I read the posts over the past year or so, it seems to me that some think Acura could be in some danger of slipping.

    Is it simply sales volume, or is it as has been suggested, the lack of a V8 (which I find odd since it appears that the V8 versions of the above list are but a fraction of the sales of a given model in the LPS niche of that particular brand (i.e., most BMW 5 sales, by far are 6 cylinder versions, ditto the A6 and I would assume ditto the Infiniti M etc etc.)

    Which goes to my original question -- that is germane to the LPS forum -- "what attributes, features and/or functions (or design traits) comprise an LPS entrant?"

    At this time, I see no reason to discuss Kia unless there is some reason to mention it in passing to demonstrate "the lack" of a trait. There was a time, for instance, when I would have assumed Saab MIGHT be a candidate for LPS inclusion. I also assume, today, we would pretty much agree that Saab need not apply (but is that because they, or "it" don't have any RWD or AWD applicants in the right places?)

    I'll live if this question remains unanswered. And, I certainly don't want us to have this thread suspended because it drifted.

    If you care to list the LPS traits you believe are immutable, however, I'm still all ears. :surprise:
  • I guess authorial intent is in the mind of the reader. Rereading your posts, including this one, I didn't read them as intending only to invite a "scholarly" (for lack of a better word) re-opening of what we're actually talking about on this forum, but also to involve the group in something you and your wife experienced while car-shopping, which came across to me, as reader (not as mind-reader), more like "we're finding the Chrysler 300 to be quite desirable and I want the group to tell me why, if I or my wife bought one, we should feel we had not leased an LPS?" I have the sense that, by and large, the invitations were rejected (or, perhaps, better stated) evoked a kind of annoyed RSVP.

    My guess is that the question itself is somewhat off the mark (no pun intended). I think the forum has merit, as currently defined, because (1) I think a large majority of people, who are really thinking of buying one of our "official" cars, tend to do their comparison shopping within this group, and don't exclude the RL as not belonging nor consider the Chrysler as belonging, but that's just my take, obviously; and (2) most of journalism about cars keeps these cars grouped and doesn't include the Chrysler.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 16,913
    I do find it funny that your post implies "how dare Kia show its pathetic head around here", and yet for whatever reason, Chrysler is now a-ok.

    I never said Chrylser was ok. And you have demonstrated EXACTLY why I feel that way. Once one exception is made, you open the floodgates.

    And I never said Kia was pathetic (by the way, saying someone "implied" anything or "meant" anything is just another way of saying you have made the mistake of trying to read between the lines rather than reading what was actually written). But, no, Kia does not belong in this discussion in any way, shape, or form.

    '13 Stang GT; '86 Benz 300E; '98 Volvo S70; '12 Leaf; '08 Town&Country

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 16,913
    I do feel Acura is currently borderline. The RL barely breaches into LPS territory, and only by merit of AWD and 300 hp. The fact is, it is not selling for anywhere near MSRP because the LPS buyers don't feel its worth 50 large. If, for instance, a limitation of LPS was $50k street price, rather than retail, they'd be out. And what if they drop their MSRP on the car?

    In any case, I think they'll need to bump the size and power of the RL to really compete with the likes of the M45, for instance.

    Volvo, on the other hand, has answered the call, IMHO, with the new v8 S80.

    I think we've demonstrated on the other board that Lincoln already has fallen from grace.

    And as I stated earlier, I think the addition of the Smart cars to MB showrooms could hurt their image. But with something like the S600 still in their stable, I don't think they'll fall from grace completely.

    '13 Stang GT; '86 Benz 300E; '98 Volvo S70; '12 Leaf; '08 Town&Country

  • Well, I, for one, have been convinced that the Chrysler 300 belongs on this board. We'll see over time whether anyone besides Mark includes it in discussions. The argument that the dinky cars in the product line disqualifies it is not convincing; otherwise the Volvo S40/V50/C30 would disqualify Volvo, and that doesn't make sense. It seems that a combined set of price, luxury, options, and performance criteria implicitly qualifies a particular model for inclusion. I'm convinced that several versions of the 300C fit. So I add my voice to the request that our "host" add it to the list at the top of the page.
  • I believe that within the next five model years, all vehicles will have to be AWD in order to stay competitive in the LPS class. When I bought my Audi A6 2.7T in 2000, there were few nameplates, (if any), that could match Audi's engineering prowess ,(twin turbo,AWD, etc) and incorporate all this state of the art technology into a luxurious, sporting sedan.

    In 2000, I was driving one of the most "complicated" (from a repair point of view) and sophisticated LPS priced under $50,000.

    Today,I could not not make that claim about the Audi.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 16,913
    The argument that the dinky cars in the product line disqualifies it is not convincing; otherwise the Volvo S40/V50/C30 would disqualify Volvo, and that doesn't make sense.

    You're right, it doesn't make sense because it's not the same comparison. A C30 will still be a luxury car, much like the TSX (or RSX, RIP) is still a luxury car, they are just entry-level luxo-cars. You cannot, by any means, even think that a PT Cruiser is a luxury car. If Volvo offers up a $14k tin can, then there would be an argument to be made.

    '13 Stang GT; '86 Benz 300E; '98 Volvo S70; '12 Leaf; '08 Town&Country

  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Posts: 1,938
    What if, and this is a BIG "what if", Chrysler released the Firepower and the ME-4-12? Would it still be denied entry into the pack? The Firepower is as luxurious as anything out there and the ME-4-12 is almost THE supercar (it smashes Mercedes' own SLR, BMW has nothing to challenge it, the Carrera GT is no challenge for it, and it makes the Enzo look like an also-ran when it comes to performance). What then? Mercedes has the C-class and is/was considering the A-class. Why couldn't Chrysler still be burdened with the Sebring and PT Cruiser and still be included? Jaguar has the X-type, BMW's bringing the 1-series, etc. (Speaking of the 1-series, won't it make the 3-series and M-coupe superfluous, especially considering it will be priced about the same, if not a splash more?)

    I'm not championing adding Chrysler to the mix, I'm just saying it's not fair to exclude it simply because it has a couple of cheapy-cheapies in the model lineup. The way it stands now, it's not allowed simply because it doesn't have the uppity snob appeal.
  • acuratacurat Posts: 49
    Acura borderline? Hardly.

    I recently chose the RL over competing vehicles from Infiniti and Lexus because it is an elegant, beautifully-crafted, technologically advanced and superbly-performing car at a compelling price point. I did not consider Mercedes or Jaguar because of quality problems. I did not consider BMW because I personally find their products ugly and vastly overpriced. Having money does not obligate me to spend it unwisely.

    More generally, the relative sales of various LPS have more to do with marketing than intrinsic merit IMHO. I have been amazed for years at Toyota's success in convincing a gullible public that Lexus equals luxury. A gilded Camry is a gilded Camry...

    ...and yes, a gilded Accord is a gilded Accord. But at least everything comes standard. Now, let the flaming begin!

    :P
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 16,913
    That's fine. We each have our opinion.

    I'm not saying anything bad about the RL. I think its a fine vehicle. The problem with being in this crowd is that its the best Acura has to offer against its competitors who offer much bigger, powerful, and expensive sedans. And, no, I'm not saying the RL needs to compete with those, but maybe Acura does. In other words, I think they should consider adding a car to their lineup ABOVE the RL. I want to point out, again, that I'm talking in terms of manufacturers here, not individual cars.

    '13 Stang GT; '86 Benz 300E; '98 Volvo S70; '12 Leaf; '08 Town&Country

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 16,913
    What then? Mercedes has the C-class and is/was considering the A-class. Why couldn't Chrysler still be burdened with the Sebring and PT Cruiser and still be included? Jaguar has the X-type, BMW's bringing the 1-series, etc.

    Just as in my example of the volvo, we're comparing cars of totally different calibers. The 300 does not compare to a 7-series anymore than a PT Cruiser compares to an X-type.

    '13 Stang GT; '86 Benz 300E; '98 Volvo S70; '12 Leaf; '08 Town&Country

  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Posts: 1,938
    But the Imperial would.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 16,913
    Possibly. And that's why I mentioned it before. Although I said they'd have to add the Imperial AND drop the PT, IMHO. I had previously said to drop the T&C, as well, but I might be persuaded out of that one if they did the rest.

    '13 Stang GT; '86 Benz 300E; '98 Volvo S70; '12 Leaf; '08 Town&Country

  • Someone had better tell the TV Test-drive guy on the SpeedChannel that he can't compare the 300C to a 7 series BMW or an A8 -- in a 30 minute program he said words to the effect that the only way to describe the 300C by comparison, is to compare it with "similar" offerings from Audi and BMW, namely the A8 and 7 series.

    At the time I thought "pull the other one."

    Perhaps at the time he hadn't driven the STS.

    For a variety of reasons, "I think" the 300 is a "near-LPS" car personally.

    But the heck of it is, if you stuck a gun to my head and said "quick fast, rattle of "n" number of LPS traits," I do think the 300 would qualify.

    My confusion of course is that these two are at odds: "it isn't really a member vs, the traits I would list."

    The main reason a car might not qualify would be what "the dealer body is slimy?" Well the Lexus and Infiniti dealer in our city's northern auto-mall are full of the exact same "lot lizards" and "what'll it take to get you to buy today" kind of folks as the Chryco dealer that has been on the corner since the 60's."

    So that is that.
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