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Luxury Performance Sedans



  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,206
    For nearly all cars (except BMWs) 85+% of the braking is done by the front brakes.

    Why not BMW's, are they exempt from the rules of physics?

    It could have to do with "anti-dive" suspension geometry. My car has it, and BMW's may also. If the rear of the car doesn't lift & transfer a huge proportion of the downward force (weight) of the car to the front wheels during braking, the rears take a more nearly equal fraction. When I hit my brakes really hard, the car just squats down, applying plenty of weight to the rear.

    Look around -- many cars that have ventilated front discs (most/all in this board) may or may not have ventilated rears. Cars with a sufficiently sophisticated suspension will have 4 ventilated discs. For all I know, all these do, but I doubt it. The Germans almost certainly do, given that they're designed to run at 100 mph or so continuously. The Asians will be efficient -- if they don't need ventilated rears, they won't fit them.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    What category does it fit in ???

  • erickplerickpl Posts: 2,735
    I'm a bit late to the game, but such is my life. :)

    Having driven the servotronic on a VW/Audi vehicle and Active Steering from BMW, I can say I prefer the Active Steering.

    The VW/Audi setup is very nice, but in MY case, I just don't feel the road very well. It responds immediately and has a good feel/connection to the wheels at all speeds and it IS effortless, but transmitting the feel back to the driver just isn't there FOR ME.

    The Active Steering lets the road feel through to me. Maybe it is the tire choice, but the A/S feels right. The ratio change has never been an issue and it responds just as fast or faster than the Servo in the VW/Audis.

    I'm wondering if VW/Audi's audience is more for L and S vs the P. I wouldn't go so far to say it has a Lexus like ride to it, but it is defintely more 'posh' than the A/S equipped BMW's. The BMW's seem to focus on the P and S vs the L.

    I'd take either one in a heartbeat as they are better (again, TO ME) than a large percentage of the cars out there today.

  • BMW also has Servotronic steering... completely separate from the Active Steering (which may incorporate Servo, I don't know).

    It is a $250 option on the X3...

    Moderator - Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • erickplerickpl Posts: 2,735
    Understood. I'm referring to specifically the Active Steering though.

    I really like the feel on the A/S setup, at any speed.

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Entry lux\performance, just like the last one.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Posts: 1,938
    Why not BMW's, are they exempt from the rules of physics?

    They aren't exempt. Cdnpinhead said it correctly. Ever notice how BMWs just squat when the brakes are applied whereas almost all other cars want to plant their noses in the asphalt? BMWs have 50/50 or near 50/50 weight distribution along with the anti-dive suspension setup that allows them to use equal brake proportioning front to rear. Most other cars whether they be FWD, AWD, or RWD have most of their weight on the nose which makes the nosedive even more pronounced which requires more braking force in the front since that's where most of the traction has been shifted during braking.

    I assure you, the laws of physics are in full effect on BMWs as well. They just do a better job of working with them and not against them.
  • aflcaflc Posts: 8
    So, yesterday I decided to send a letter to Audi about their marketing tactics. (We all know they lack any structured marketing department at all.)

    And what do I see as soon as I send it out. Their mea culpa... and a new plan to get the word out, finally...
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,206
    Just as I suspected.

    My Lincoln LS gets less than zero respect from the masses, but the suspension was very well thought out. Selling (or leasing) the damn thing to the blue-haired masses turned out to be a losing proposition, particularly when Ford was in the process of self-destruction (helped along by the Exploder tires).

    Thanks for verifying what I thought was true. This sort of thing costs money, which is part of why BMW is generally more expensive than Infiniti (& others). Whether anyone appreciates it, or is willing to pay for it is an entirely different question.

  • bargamonbargamon Posts: 302
    Hey mark,

    Allroad is gone a few months now and Im about to take delivery in a few weeks down in Spartenburg a 530i I ordered with MT, comfort seats, premium, etc. Monaco blue with Auburn interior!

    MSRP is 55k and with nothing but first payment and some BS fees my 36mo with 15k miles is only $630 per mo. with Taxes.

    I never even test drove it. Ok, I drove a friends a few months back. My Audi dealer changed owners and have really become a joke. I never even gave them a chance as they never even made any effort to keep me. No incentives, no invitations, no call from dealer, no effort at all. They treated me not like an existing customer. I really did not care as the one prerequisite must be made for me. That is I don't want to feel stupid. And paying over $100 more per month for an Audi that Stickers for 7 grand less with putting $2500 down really does not make me feel any better about the deal. The other thing is I gotta like the car.

    The Audi A6 is a great car and very special. As is the 530i BMW. The lack of MT was huge, but I could have overcome this with the right deal.

    I had a great Audi experience and hope to get back into one some day. The Q7 deal was tempting but its just not the right vehicle for me. The X3 was very tempting as well and a hell of a deal. I really would like to put my wife in one in a few years when our Minivan days are over.

    Mark, I have enjoyed your posts over the years and Im sure I'll come across you some other time.
  • At the time I did the Infiniti, then the Audi, there was no 530xi on the market. But as part of my due diligence, I, too had priced a BMW both "at parity" with respect to options and at the same price point as the Audi.

    Here is what I found:

    At MSRP, the BMW was more expensive by many thousands of dollars when the BMW was optioned as close as possible to Audi's A6 with virtually every option.

    The lease payment, however, was somewhat less than the Audi.

    At MSRP parity, the BMW was about $200 per month less than the Audi (again NOT for a car that I wanted, since I did want the AWD version that had the 255HP engine but was not for sale when I pulled the trigger for the Audi, after unhooking the Infiniti.)

    The point is, Audi AT THAT MOMENT, did come down in lease price to the point that it was just under the Infiniti M35X's price on a similar deal on a similarly equipped car.

    My wife had, at that time, been into her new BMW just a couple of months and the dealer service at our local BMW store was outstanding. I didn't want, THEN, a 330xi -- now, hmmm a 335xi could turn my head -- but we'll see.

    The Spartenburg experience (where we took our two day driving school in Sept '06) is delightful, educational and in our case just plain fun.

    Now that BMW has caught up (in many ways) to Audi -- in the areas that are important to me -- once again, I will shop when my time is near.

    I plan also to look at what Cadillac has to offer -- say it ain't so! :surprise:
  • fonefixerfonefixer Posts: 247
    Maybe someone needs to send Audi Corporate a letter about the reliability tactics of their vehicles as well. I have owned Audis for 8 service intensive years and as Mark has written in these forums many, many times ; never leave your garage without a bumper to bumper warranty. He is exactly right.They are okay to lease, terrible to own. Who knows, maybe the whole LPS market is going this way. Does anyone actually purchase an LPS vehicle these days?
  • PCD delivery? Sounds like fun!!

    Moderator - Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I plan also to look at what Cadillac has to offer -- say it ain't so!

    AWD will be available on the 300hp version of the CTS. As for the V version, probably not.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Does anyone actually purchase an LPS vehicle these days?

    A Lexus GS is safe to buy I'm sure. Lexus makes no real effort to get you to lease, so I don't see why buying would be a problem, especially since Lexus cars tend to not change very much during their life cycles. The Infiniti M is probably a safe bet as well. The Acura RL on the other hand hasn't done any better than the A6 or 5 series in terms of reliability.
  • erickplerickpl Posts: 2,735
    As far as reliability goes, does Audi have reliability problems in Europe too?

    Audi puts their MMI controller right next to the cup holders. You may say, so? Spill a $1.00 coke on the center console and see what happens to MMI over time. From the modules I have seen, it doesn't take much moisture/syrup/junk to get in there to foul things up. Perhaps finding ways to modify or seal their electronics from the elements, including user-induced soakings, would alleviate problems.

  • fonefixerfonefixer Posts: 247
    Do you think the auto industry will ever reach the point where most cars will be able to travel 100,000 miles on minimal maintenance?
  • pearlpearl Posts: 336
    Most cars already are at 100K with "minimal maintenance". Other than fluids, filters, and "wear out" items such as brake pads, wipers, etc, there isn't much to do. It wasn't that many years ago that changing oil every few K was required, tune-ups at least every 30K (and I remember when they were every 12K!), etc. Today, most cars go 100K on the same set of spark plugs. There are no points/condensor, etc to replace; oil changes are figured by the car's computer and many cars go over 10K between them, etc, etc, etc. While I am sure that things will continue to improve, you have to say that the auto industry has taken much of the routine maintenance out of car ownership.
  • upuautupuaut Posts: 14
    However, my experience with a 2002 Passat is that the rear brakes wear out at about twice the rate of the front. It's a mystery.

    Hey Warthog, if you live in the snowbelt or some other area with a lot of sand/grit/dirt on the road that is the cause. The front tires kick up the dirt, it coats the rear discs and causes fast wear on the rear pads. this is the one advantage of rear drums (other than being cheaper to make) they are a closed design, keeping dirt out.
  • upuautupuaut Posts: 14
    I'm not buying your logic. wether the front of a car is raised slightly, or lowered slightly, or the same done to the back of the car the weight sitting on each tire will not change very much, so your comment about a BMW squatting down and applying weight to the rear is not correct. I don't doubt this trait is a good one, but I would say it is to keep proper suspension geometry, not weight transfer. And wether a car has 50/50 weight distribution, or 54/46 or 48/52 wouldn't make much difference either. Why would a car having 54% of its weight over the front wheels do 85% of it's braking with the front wheels, and one with 50% of its weight over the front wheels do 50% of it's braking with the front wheels? i would agree that it would be a bit better, maybe down to 80%. Due to inertia the front wheels, under hard braking, will be able to slow the car down a certain amount before skidding happens (or ABS kicks in) the back wheels will not be able to slow the car nearly as much as the fronts before skidding. Think about riding a bicycle on a wet road. Even if the have 50/50 weight distribution on each tire when you apply the back brakes you will hardly slow at all before the tire starts to skid. then release and go up to speed again and do the same with the front brakes. They will slow you down a lot more before skidding. that is the basic physics I am saying BMW nor any other car can overcome. Well maybe the 911 with the engine weight hanging behind the back wheels.
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