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Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,863
    That is kind of what I think. I don't have a dog in this fight either but I just can't see any 4 banger, turbo or not, showing up too well today with all the sweet v6's around. Especially if that 4 banger costs $50 grand.

    The engine is the heart and soul of any auto and I've yet to see a 4 banger that did not vibrate and buzz too much for my taste. IMO no amount of glitz will make up for that.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I guess that's why the 2009 TL won Wards Automotive Best Interior award for the current model year

    I couldn't care less what Wards thinks. The ergonomics in the TL are terrible, and the materials look and feel cheap. The cheap plastic fake aluminum trim looks like cheap plastic. The center stack is cheap plastic, and the console is cheap plastic. The TL interior is basically the same quality as what you get in a Mazda6 or Nissan Maxima. The only difference is the Mazda and Nissan aren't pretending to be luxury cars. I actually prefer the Maxima.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,863
    It is hard to check Audi numbers because they are usually grouped with VW.

    I've driven the Genesis and found it to be very impressive, top notch IMO. If I was in the market it would definitely be on the list.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    People seem to be voting with their wallets. You know what they say...'numbers don't lie.' But TL haters will keep knocking it in spite of the fact that people are buying them in higher numbers than anything else out there in it's segment. Nope, no real bargain there. Those people must all just be blind....or insane....or both.

    You're conveniently leaving out the fact that the TL is getting annihilated by the 3 series. 8,464 of which were sold in March. Numbers indeed don't lie, and the TL isn't even close to being the segment leader. TL buyers must be blind, I don't know how they could get past the styling if they could actually see it.

    5 series sales were 4,040 in March, by the way. How's that RL doing these days?
  • james27james27 Posts: 433
    The latest month where I could find a breakdown of both Acura and Audi was from Feb 09

    Acura TL 2293
    Audi A4 2202

    Hardly a trouncing or difinitive difference.
  • draz2draz2 Posts: 50
    We all know that you know much more than those ignoramus' over at Wards. I'm surprised you don't offer them seminars on "how to design a car interior (and exterior)." The interior of the TL is cutting edge up-to-date and equipped with state of the art technology. But all that is meaningless to you I guess. You're probably one of those guys who salivates at the chance to get one of those really "spiffy" AM/FM head units....preferably with a cassette tape player. If you really hit the lottery, maybe you can even find a car with an 8-Track.

    You really seem to like to display your ignorance with statements like, "I actually prefer the Maxima." That would be the same Maxima with that "awesome" CVT transmission that feels like a loose rubber band attached to a flywheel, right?

    Wow, you're a real car guy. I can tell.
  • draz2draz2 Posts: 50
    >>>You're conveniently leaving out the fact that the TL is getting annihilated by the 3 series. 8,464 of which were sold in March.<<<
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    All leases, all poseurs.
  • jimbresjimbres Posts: 2,025
    Easy, big fella. While Lexusguy may have come down hard on the Acura (not without justification, IMO), at no time did he attack you. Why, then, are you making this personal?

    We're just talking about cars here - not about really important things, like books, music or single malt Scotch.
  • draz2draz2 Posts: 50
    >>>I've driven the Genesis and found it to be very impressive, top notch IMO. If I was in the market it would definitely be on the list.<<<

    I agree. The Genesis would have been on my short list too if it weren't for the fact that it's RWD only. I live in NY and we get snow here and there's no way I want to be in a RWD car with snow on the road.

    That and the fact that Hyundai really needs to establish a separate dealership network if it expects to move into that market segment. Who wants to go in for an oil change and wait behind a guy with a beat up Elantra?
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    We all know that you know much more than those ignoramus' over at Wards.

    Considering their choices, yes, I would say I do. I don't judge an interior by whether the stereo can play DVDs, or whether the NAV system has Zagat ratings and weather reports. There's nothing inherently luxurious about techie-gizmos. I don't take luxury vacations at a Best Buy.

    The fact is, Acura loads their cars up with tech features as a crutch. They know they cannot compete with Audi, or BMW, or even Lexus when it comes to quality of the leather, or switchgear, or dashboard materials, so they go on an on about how much technology you get as standard.

    I'm just not interested. The TL is like the Saab 9-3, a quasi-luxury car built on a pedestrian platform that uses smoke and mirrors to disguise what it actually is. It's less transparently shameless than something like a Lincoln MKZ, but that's about as much praise as I can give.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    All leases, all poseurs.

    Right, so when its the TL outselling the G, the numbers count. When its the 3 series mopping the floor with the TL, the numbers don't count. Makes perfect sense.
  • draz2draz2 Posts: 50
    Could you possibly take issue with the fact that BMW's are leased in far, far higher percentages than TL's (and Acura's in general)? Did you read last year how BMW had gotten killed with their lease returns? They overestimated the residual values and were stuck with huge inventories they couldn't sell at anywhere close to what they estimated the "residual value" would be.

    Not so with TL. I'd estimate that over 80% of TL sales are just that...sales. 3 series BMW's (in particular) are probably about 75% leases.

    Apples to oranges.
  • art234art234 Posts: 103
    It's nice to see such a passionate debate going on here.

    The Acura TL finished third in my choosing of cars for a number of reasons.

    First, while it had lots of whistles and bells, I didn't like the ride as much as the Audi.

    Second, the Audi was laid out better to my taste, and appeared more roomy in the front and back...while the rear seat room of the Acura may be slightly better, the trunk is almost 25% smaller than the Audi's.

    Third, just because there are more of a particular car on the road doesn't mean its better.....Audi usually holds its value better than BMW because there are fewer out there--they don't flood the market.

    I will also add that I drove the 335i x drive extensively as did my wife, and we both preferred the Audi. While we're talking 80something horses difference, the A4's performance was more than adequate, and the 2.0 actually outperforms some V6's out there, which is more than enough for me. I am not a horsepower junkie, and found the car to be fast enough for the short on ramps I deal with. Also the Audi's quattro system is about the best all wheel drive around especially in inclement weather--important to me since I live on a steep hill.

    In the end, I enjoyed the Audi overall better than anything else I drove, and while that is subjective to me, I am very happy with my decision. I am getting the car built to my specs, and it will have the whistles and bells that I like...including 3G MMI, which is far advanced over the 2009 offering.

    Regarding price, we are estimating the car will cost between $41K and $43K when all is said and done. They changed some packaging and equipment options for 2010, but I have already negotiated hard margin for the dealer ($500 over invoice, with all incentives to me).

    Choosing a car is totally subjective--what I like you may not. Overall I think I was just done with Japanese cars for a while (the Volvo was my wife's not mine). Also, Infiniti is starving right now, and based on my experience they deserve what they are getting. They are basically a dressed up Nissan with a much higher price, and not much more value. But that's just me.....
  • art234art234 Posts: 103
    FYI,

    Infiniti is also getting killed with lease returns, especially on M35's--which is why they are not holding their value. Nissan continually over-residualizes them to get attractive lease rates, and then chokes on them when they come off lease.

    Another positive note for seeing less of a car on the road--they usually hold their value a little better than mass merchandised cars....but time will tell.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,863
    In the long run all that matters is that it is your money being spent so you get to choose what you buy! Certainly the A4 is a fine car that is very appealing to a lot of folks.

    Passionate debates are what keeps my interest here at Edmund's but some of the rants are amusing. It shows a lot of immaturity because nearly all the cars represented here are great cars and attempting to belittle a certain car does not make another car any better.

    One other odd thing about this particular debate is that technically, neither the TL nor the A4 is listed here as being a luxury performance sedan! :)

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • draz2draz2 Posts: 50
    >One other odd thing about this particular debate is that technically, neither the TL nor the A4 is listed here as being a luxury performance sedan!
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    And that's what rankles me the most. The TL undoubtedly belongs there. Nothing against the A4. It's a great car for what it is, but it's s very significantly smaller car with far less standard features than the TL. I think the TL solidly belongs in the class of the 5 series, A6, and E-class. And belongs there at a price that is far more competitive with their smaller siblings (A4, C-class, 3 series).
  • jimbresjimbres Posts: 2,025
    One other odd thing about this particular debate is that technically, neither the TL nor the A4 is listed here as being a luxury performance sedan!

    Good point. This discussion is supposed to focus on mid-luxe - not entry level - cars. If we want to debate Audi / Acura / BMW, we should be talking about the A6, the RL & the 5-series. Lower priced cars are off-topic.
  • shmangshmang Posts: 297
    That sales number sounds reasonable. However, the Audi A4 includes the 2.0T and the 3.0. Let's assume (without knowing the actual) that the sales of 2.0T is 60% of all A4 sales, so the sales number of A4 2.0T is roughly 60% of Acura TL. Sounds reasonable?

    As far as the style, it is in the eye of beholder and as long as there are more people like it, it is a sucessful design - it definitely is not for everyone.
  • shmangshmang Posts: 297
    IMO, they are not at the same level. 3 series smokes TL - not only on performance, but also in design, prestige and brand loyalty. Heck, I would consider Infiniti before Acura. But, if BMW's reliability can match up (with Infiniti, Lexus or Acura), I would own BMW exclusively.
  • james27james27 Posts: 433
    If you really need your ego stroked, then I guess you'd never consider a good car from a 'lesser' car company...just no status in that. Personally, if I liked the car, I wouldn't care about the others waiting in the room.
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