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Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,770
    edited October 2010
    Don't get excited bob, the info is there, in the latest issue, so just look a little harder. They are referring to overall manufacturer reliability. I would post it for you if I knew how. Maybe someone else could post it?

    I think the German mfgs. reliability has been rising, but they still lag well behind the Asians and even the U.S. mfgs. and most recently they have lost ground, according to CR.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The very worst car was a tie between the Audi A6 and the Jag XF. As usual, Acura/Honda, Toyota/Lexus were at the top overall, but the most reliable car was the Porsche Boxster.

    I wonder how some Boxster owners have felt when the engines exploded in their top rated, ultra reliable cars (see IMS failure). Acura products are awful, and Lexus products are just boring.

    What's average? How many more problems than average is worse than average? CR knows this information, and it would be incredibly useful for them to let the public know it. But they refuse to do so.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,770
    Too bad we can't get a car with Audi styling and driving dynamics and Lexus build quality and reliability.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Too bad we can't get a car with Audi styling and driving dynamics and Lexus build quality and reliability.

    I think the Infiniti M currently provides the best compromise of German style performance and luxury and Japanese quality and reliability. The rest of the lineup isn't quite there yet, nor is their "tuning" division, but they're on their way.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,770
    edited October 2010
    What are your initial thoughts on the Equus? I think it has a shot.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460

  • Actually my subscriptions expired this month, so I missed the details. However, I still get their e-mails and was able to access the overall impressions. Looks like BMW, Audi and M-B have fallen behind again.
    BUT the good news is that the 2010 E350 is better than average.
    Which paper issue contained the information? My earlier post was based on what they said in the April 2010 (annual auto) issue.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    What are your initial thoughts on the Equus? I think it has a shot.

    I think it's boring. What does it do that a CPO LS460 doesn't?
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,770
    I think it is the November issue, and I humbly accept your apology. :)

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460

  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,770
    Well obviously you haven't driven one so I assume you mean it just looks boring.

    What does it do that a CPO LS460 doesn't?

    Too early to tell at this point, other than a new car instead of someone else's hand me down. Comparing new to new with the LS, you get a great new car and and BIG sack of money to cart around with you.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460

  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,476
    edited November 2010
    "What's average? ....CR knows this information, and it would be incredibly useful for them to let the public know it. But they refuse to do so. "

    "AVERAGE PROBLEM RATES [ % ]
    TROUBLE SPOTS [ year ] 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10

    Engine Major 3 3 2 2 1 1 1 1 <1 <1


    Engine Minor 8 7 6 4 3 2 1 1 1 <1"
    ....etc
    - from CR online.

    [ edit - I have tried now 4 times to line there #s up
    so that they will display as they are in the chart.
    with no luck - sorry... ]
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    edited November 2010
    Too early to tell at this point, other than a new car instead of someone else's hand me down. Comparing new to new with the LS, you get a great new car and and BIG sack of money to cart around with you.

    I guess I'm just not sure what's so great about it. The interior design looks 10 years old. The LS460s electronics are dated, but the Hyundai's electronics are even more dated. I just think it's tough to argue that a 60 grand Hyundai is such a great bargain when it's no A8 or S-class in design, luxury and materials quality, or features.
  • A reporter wants to talk with someone who is deciding between a new Lexus, BMW and/or Mercedes. Please email pr@edmunds.com asap with your daytime contact info, your city and state, and the vehicle models currently under your consideration.
    Thanks,
    Jeannine Fallon
    Corporate Communications
    Edmunds.com

    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

  • Have the November issue-not in there unless you can give me a specific page number. Maybe the December issue which is now out? Don't have it.
    Had been subscribing to CR for years, but finally gave up as their reporting on cars is often confusing. Primarily they do not explain how they come up with their rankings (point scores). Their reliability ratings are a source of information, but then again not too sure about how they reach their conclusions. One factor is ONLY people who are willing to subscribe to the magazine and return the survey have input. Is that a valid sample? Who knows.
    Also disliked that you had to pay for magazine, then extra for website and then extra for health website and then extra for auto pricing webstie, ad infinitum.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,770
    I only get the on line edition and I agree that their web site is very poorly done. The article in question may be the October edition. I wish someone would post it.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Had been subscribing to CR for years, but finally gave up as their reporting on cars is often confusing. Primarily they do not explain how they come up with their rankings (point scores). Their reliability ratings are a source of information, but then again not too sure about how they reach their conclusions.

    Agreed. The definition of what's average is always changing, and despite CR claiming thousands and thousands of responses, their sample sizes for lower volume models (A8, anyone?) are often pitiful and completely full of holes.

    CR bases their reliability reports based on what an owner considers to be a serious problem. Is a rattling dash serious? Depends who you ask. You should check out TrueDelta. They don't have near the amount of cars and years indexed that CR does, but their survey is a lot more consistent and accurate. It's also free, there's none of the relentless "super extra premium membership required" crap.
  • I hear that. I gave up on CR a long time ago. In general I find that most people who respond to survey data take the opportunity to complain and generally submit less than favorable comments. The red/black color code system that CR uses is way too general. Sample size would improve credibility. A couple years ago CR got caught with false reporting (child car seats, I think) which convinced me I made the right choice. BTW - I'm still driving my 2001 Audi A-6, 2.7T w/6-speed that CR rated at the bottom of the class for reliability. My guess is a handful of people responded to CR with what would normally be a minor issue, but to them was major. If Audi put a 6-speed in the 3.0T I would trade tomorrow.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,770
    The survey in question covers 10 model years and in order to be included a car must have at least 100 respondents for each year. Also, they do categorize the problems as major or minor.

    I view CR as just one of many tools to help in auto research, so to me, they are not valid or invalid. Certainly I can see some bias in their reporting, they are human so they can't avoid that. They especially like fuel efficient cars. That's why you see so many hybrids recommended. I would never buy any auto based only on their findings and recommendations.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460

  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,206
    edited November 2010
    I gave up on CR a long time ago. In general I find that most people who respond to survey data take the opportunity to complain and generally submit less than favorable comments.

    I absolutely agree. Any survey that depends on a self-selected cohort is as "unscientific" as they come. Either the respondent has an axe to grind, as you pointed out, or they have a cause to support (the Pious, for example), or they have not much else to do than fill out a lengthy survey. Anyone here really think that the results of a Bill O'Reilly survey on Fox is representative of the U.S. as a whole?

    Since most of us are surveyed to death, at work and otherwise, even finding respondents for randomly-selected (real, as in statistically valid) surveys is becoming more difficult.

    I don't know what the answer is, other than keeping in mind that all cars are so much more reliable than they used to be, even when packed full of useless (to me) electronic & electrical gee-gaws, when compared to the time that CR started doing surveys.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,048
    edited November 2010
    I go to the library -- if I really feel the need for a CR opinion -- to look at CR. And, I typically use CR as a (1 of many) point of reference for products that do not evoke much emotion.

    I am certain people do get passionate about vacuum cleaners or HE washers and front loading dryers, but probably not THAT often. Cars, on the other hand, often are the cause of much passion (both positive and negative). I needed a new garbage disposal (my dead one was over 20 years old) recently -- I checked out CR and the reviews on line at Best Buy and Amazon.

    Now THAT appliance can be researched without too much concern about the passion for or against a certain brand, image, heritage, races won, or even country of origin.

    Using CR for car buying -- and thinking CR's input is any more than just another [often minor and highly subjective] data point -- is an invitation to disappointment. I'm not saying completely rule CR out for automobiles, I'm just saying they are, IMHO, NOT CHECK RATED as a source of auto buying advice.

    BTW, I went with a 3/4 HP Waste King continuous feed disposal. Man, this thing will eat Coke bottles all day long without jamming. Thank you CR!

    Homer.
  • jimbresjimbres Posts: 2,025
    I don't know what the answer is, other than keeping in mind that all cars are so much more reliable than they used to be, even when packed full of useless (to me) electronic & electrical gee-gaws, when compared to the time that CR started doing surveys.

    To its credit, CR points this out from time to time. A frequency-of-repair history that might have warranted an overall rating of "much better than average" 20 years ago will earn a "worse than average" today.

    In truth, the reliability wars are over. Unless you're considering an outlier - something made in Italy, say - you should have no trouble getting 10 years / 100K miles without heroics from almost any vehicle built today.
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