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Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • rich545rich545 Posts: 386
    I guess what I'd like to see is numbers to support that. I understand the physics behind it, but a) I'm not so sure the respective suspensions are equal and b) the 5 is only slightly taller than the 3 (like 3 inches) plus it is wider. As you pointed out the weight difference may be the deciding factor with the 325i with sport weighing in at 3351 lbs and the 545i with sport at 3803 lbs. I agree that it would be nice to know exactly what the CG is on both. I don't really know what would prove all of this out. Skid plate numbers maybe? I guess it all doesn't really matter much because in real-world driving you aren't going to encounter many turns that really scare either the 5 or 3. One thing I didn't realize that kdfx pointed out is that the sport package on the 330xi only involves aerodynamics, not suspension. You can bet your local salesperson would never volunteer that bit of info (if they even were aware of it). Maybe that's why I feel like my 545 significantly outhandles my former 330xi.
  • cstilescstiles Posts: 465
    Are you comparing the handling differences between a RWD 5-series and an AWD 3-series? I would think it would be obvious that in that comparo, the 5 would outhandle the 3. But that doesn't mean the 5 generally outhandles the 3 does it?
  • jjacurajjacura Posts: 808
    Some excellant observations Cstiles......(Very Acura8) .... and this is just an observation but some of us may pay a little more for our coffee...$1.68 @ Starbucks in my own travel mug....or $1.56 @ Caribou which is a relatively new coffee chain originating out of Minneapolis.
  • rich545rich545 Posts: 386
    What I'd really like to see is handling stats for the 545i with SP and the 325i with SP. Everyone that says the 3 would outhandle the 5 might be 100% correct. I'd just like to see that backed up by something other than general physics which don't take into account differences between the two cars in terms of design. Maybe there aren't enough difference for the 5 to make up the weight difference. All I'm saying is I'd like to see just how much of an edge the 3 would have if it has one at all.
  • cstilescstiles Posts: 465
    You know, I just spent $3.00 for a Spiced Chai Latte this morning, so I'm also guilty as charged!

    We took the RL to St. Louis last weekend for the Lenny Kravitz concert, and the car was great. I averaged 80 mph and got 23mpg, with 4 passengers and overnight luggage. Bob Dylan's "Blood on the Tracks" in 5.1 Surround Sound in SACD format also sounded pretty amazing. The NAV system also helped us maneuver around an accident in downtown St. Louis so all in all it was great.

    And no speeding tickets, either. A white RL doesn't exactly stand out like a black M45 Sport with shiny 19 inch dubs. I seriously wouldn't be shocked if I saw an M45 with spinners!
  • rich545rich545 Posts: 386
    BTW, the 7 does not have more HP unless you are taking about the 760 (and 95% of 7's you see are 745's). The 745 and 545 have the same engine. The smaller car with ALWAYS outhandle the larger car IF all things are equal. All I'm saying is that I'm not sure they are. Maybe enough things are equal to give the 3 the edge. Maybe not. I'd just like to see proof in the form of numbers.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,088
    . . .I would assume that the 330xi (when it comes out later this year) would out handle the 530i and 530xi. However, despite my AWD bias, I am not saying this because of the AWD. The wheelbase, weight and perhaps the power to weight ratio would seem to favor the 3 series.

    I just configured a 530xi as minimally as I would want it and it comes to about $55K (without extra charge paint) -- and it claims to be offered for a 36 month lease @ 12K miles per year with a $2,500 cap cost reduction @ $802 per month -- we're now back in 2005 Audi A6 3.2 territory, if this holds constant (which it probably won't). The M35X is starting to be a candidate for inclusion in the "old saying":

    Mercedes - Old Money
    BMW - New Money
    Audi - Smart Money (past tense)

    Honorable "smart money" mention: Infiniti's 2006 M's (and from where I sit, the M35X seems "really, really smart.")

    Infiniti may never rise to inclusion in the German Money group, I have no clue -- but at present the Infiniti has replaced Audi as "the value leader." Now if it ever earns even a little prestige. . .well, it might happen, someday, perhaps, maybe, OK not likely, but not impossible.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    You don't need numbers. Just visit your local, friendly, jack up the money factor BMW dealer and drive a 325 or 330 fast around the curves. Then do the same in your vehicle.
    You'll see what I am talking about.
  • jjacurajjacura Posts: 808
    cstiles, My wife drinks Chai Lattes while I "keep it simple stupid" with regular caffinated Kenya AA if I can get it fresh from Caribou. Your run to St. Louis touched off some fun memories of the kind of music I enjoy. and as far as the black M45 with the addition of "Spinners" ...it cracked me up.

    and an addition to Marks observations:
    Mercedes - Old Money
    BMW - New Money
    Audi - Smart Money (past tense)
    Honorable "smart money" mention: Infiniti's 2006 M's

    RL- Money Winner (Complete Package) ;)
  • rich545rich545 Posts: 386
    Actually, I do need numbers. Sometimes what we feel isn't the most accurate. As I said, I had a 330xi before it and I feel like the 545 is significantly more confident in curves. As others have said, the 325i with sport may handle better than the 330xi. I have driven the 325 non-sport as well as a loaner car and certianly didn't feel that it handled better. But there you have it, I didn't FEEL like it handled better. That could be due to the fact that the E60 has more advanced stability control. It may NOT mean that it handles better though. Basically, what I'm getting at is that we all feel things differently. I want numbers so I can rule out individual perception. Another thing to consider though is should we even EXPECT the 5 to handle better? It's basically designed to handle better than its peers. The 325 and 330 are not its peers.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    "Sometimes what we feel isn't the most accurate."
    I dunno. I think feel is everything. Numbers are sterile. You may get to the 711 1.5 seconds faster than me. But I do believe I will have more fun getting there.
  • rich545rich545 Posts: 386
    I agree that feel is everything if you are deciding what car you want to buy. Hell, you'll be sitting in it so you better like it. The question I'm posing though is does one car actually out-handle the other? For that answer feel is irrelevant. In the most simple terms, does the 325i get around a turn with greater ability to hold the road than the 545i assuming the drivers are equal? I don't know the answer and maybe it's impossible to determine. If for you the 325 is more fun to drive more power to you. I have no problem with that. I think that the 545 is an infinitely more fun car than my 330xi was. I'm sure this discussion is boring everyone to tears anyway so I'll just look around on my own to find out what the answer is because it's just interesting to me on a purely intellectual level. Both are great cars in their own right.
  • cstilescstiles Posts: 465
    Car & Driver archives reveal the following....

    2004 330i with performance pkg pulled .86g on the skidpad, and needed 158 feet to stop from 70 mph. This car had 225/40ZR/18 front and 255/35ZR/18 rear Michelin Pilot Sport tires.

    2004 530i with sports package pulled .90g on the skidpad, and needed 167 feet to stop from 70 mph. This car had 245/40WR/18 Dunlop runflat tires.

    They also show a March 2005 test of a 530i w/o sports package that pulled just .82 g,and needed 176 feet to stop from 70mph.
  • rich545rich545 Posts: 386
    Yup, and the 2004 545i stopped in 156 ft 0-70. They don't give skidpad numbers for the 545 that I can find though.
  • rich545rich545 Posts: 386
    Sorry, I meant 70-0. One of the reasons I'm saying that the 325i might not handle better though it is smaller is the E60 has active roll stabilization whereas the previous generation 3 did not (I don't know about the new design).
  • marleybarrmarleybarr Posts: 334
    In today's Minneapolis paper:
    2005 A6 3.2 , $553.00/mo. plus tax. 36 month lease
    MSRP $48,870.
    Downpayment of $5,178 plus taxes, title fees, unspecified dealer fees.
    Purchase option at lease end: $27,367
    Includes: Premium, convenience,parktronic,18" wheels,cold weather,freight.
    $350.00 disposition fee at lease ending.
    .25/mile over 10,000 miles per year.
    Is this the "smart money" over Infiniti?
  • cstilescstiles Posts: 465
    The comparatively nose-heavy RL pulled a very respectable .87g on the skidpad, shod with very middlin' Michelin Pilot MXM4 tires. A slight upgrade to Michelin Pilot A/S tires, or even summer tires, and this car will easily hit .88 or .89g.

    Not bad for FWD architecture.

    The M45 Sport got into the low .90's with active rear steering, tighter suspension tuning, and beefy tires. Not sure what the M35x did, but likely in the .84 to .86 range?
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 29,094
    With the right tires and a little suspension tweaking, you can get .90+ out of almost any car..

    The key is: How does it feel, and how easy is it to duplicate in real-world situations?

    In the '80s, Renault got a higher skid pad number out of the Alliance GTA than GM could get with a Corvette.. That didn't make the Alliance a better handling car than a Vette..

    regards,
    kyfdx

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • rich545rich545 Posts: 386
    So now the key is how it feels. I see. Isn't feel a subjective thing? I "felt" that the 545 was a better handling car than the 325. Hpowders "felt" that the 325 was. Which means that "feel" changes based on the person. The only non-biased way to look at handling is through hard numbers. The fact is, the E60 regardless of how you "feel" handles at least as well if not better than the 325 which apparently wasn't supposed to be possible given the rules of physics. Even the writers at Car & Driver that wrote the article with the stats on the 530 were impressed that it could pull .90 on a skid pad (they even said "Hell, the Porche Boxter pulls .93). The 545 has even wider rear tires so it would probably do even better. We're taking about a nearly 4,000 lb. car that handles better than most cars that weigh 500 lbs less. At least give BMW it's due for achieving that.
  • rich545rich545 Posts: 386
    Yeah, but now you're talking about upgrading other vehicles. The 530 achieved that number without tweaking. Those are the tires it comes with, and the suspension it comes with.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 29,094
    Don't get me wrong.. I love the 5-series... But, I think you are answering your own question about handling, when you talk about the 5-series compensating for it's weight with greater power, etc... It has something to compensate for...

    Can a 5-series outhandle a 3-series? Obviously... the M5 would do it, even if it had a Singer sewing machine for an engine..

    But, a 545i Sport Vs. a 325i Sport? I still stick with the 3...

    Handling is hard to quantify... It isn't just about numbers, or we'd all be driving Infinitis and Lexi...

    regards,
    kyfdx

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    "That didn't make the Alliance a better handling car than a Vette"

    Well '80s Vettes werent exactly known for great handling. The '97 C5 sure, but before that, not so much.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 29,094
    Uh.. you got the point, though... right? ;)

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • rich545rich545 Posts: 386
    Right, and the 3 has to "compensate" for it's increased mass to outhandle a Honda Civic by that logic. At least in C&D's test, the 330 SP did not beat the 530 SP. Those cars were both dressed the same way they come from the dealer. Sure, tests can vary without a doubt, but everyone was so sure that a 3 without a doubt can outhandle the 5. Clearly that's not a foregone conculsion. No, we wouldn't all be driving Lexus' and Infiniti's if it was about numbers because their numbers aren't as good (except if you're talking price). If we're talking real world, I did race an M3 coming out of Chicago and it couldn't keep up. We were going about 145 (stupid I know) and though it was straight a lot of the way we did do a fair amount of weaving. Now, maybe I'm a better or crazier driver than he was, but he was certainly trying to keep up (in fact he was the one that pulled up to me wanting to race) and he only had one passenger. I had three. So in the real world his supposed handling advantage did him no good. I agree that handling is hard to quantify, but I'd feel pretty confident racing a 325i SP anyday.
  • richcreamrichcream Posts: 205
    ".25/mile over 10,000 miles per year.
    Is this the "smart money" over Infiniti?"


    Only if you drive less than 200 miles per week. :(
  • richcreamrichcream Posts: 205
    Was that the first time 3 of your friends handed you a group beatdown? :mad: :mad: :mad: :sick:
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Yeah I understand what you mean. Handling is a hard thing to determine just by numbers, except maybe if they take the cars to a race track, which isnt usually in the review. Even with the slalom course, there are some cars that do exceptionally well (such as the Acura TL) that otherwise dont handle as well as the best cars in the class.
  • rich545rich545 Posts: 386
    Well, one of them happens to be my wife, and she beats me down everyday. Just kidding! Actually I think she may have even enjoyed it. The M3 driver pulled alongside with testosterone practically dripping from his tailpipe. He was sure he was going to dust me. Too bad for him he left with that tailpipe between his legs.
  • jjacurajjacura Posts: 808
    If that M3 was red it was probably my son coming up from O'Hare field. He's not used to driving 145MPH and his wife would probably pummel him to the floor! :P
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    "I'd feel pretty confident racing a 325 SP anyday."
    Who's talking about racing? I'm talking about handling, not speed. The fact that your 545 can out-accelerate my 325 is not nor has it ever been in dispute.
    I'm not sure my 325 can even reach 145mph.
    For heavens sake, an LS 430 would out-race a 325.
    Go to your nearest bloodsucking money factoring .00295 leech of a BMW dealership and try a BMW 3 series. Take it hard around the turns. Then try yours. Report back here what you find. If you still feel the 5 outhandles the 3, then what you maintain is probably correct. It's a subjective game.
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