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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • cmybimmergocmybimmergo Posts: 265
    Celebnty endorsements started decades ago, and continue because they are wildly successful. That said, I think it's like anything else--you have a bell curve, where the top tail will buy anyway, the bottom tail won't buy no matter what, and in the middle are the fence-sitting majority who might be swayed by what they see on TV.

    You might want to have faith that the American public are smarter than all that, but remember, if stupidity were a crime, 98% of the world would be locked up.
  • msu79gt82msu79gt82 Posts: 541
    I don't think companies use celebrity endorsements to get folks to buy their products per se; but mostly to get folks to notice the product. Celebrities tend to draw peoples attention and capture their interest.
  • bartalk3bartalk3 Posts: 692
    My objection to celebrity endorsements is that they are phony and dishonest. They are lies, to put it bluntly. In 99% of the cases celebrities endorse a product not because they like it or use it, but simply because they are paid to say so. In other words, they are totally meaningless and intentionally misleading. These things (along with much advertising) erodes the moral fiber of the country and leads to general cynicism and distrust of everything out there. That's why you often hear people say Consumer Reports is bought and paid for, bribed, corrupt, etc. People can't imagine any more than anything can be honest because so much out there isn't.
  • jjacurajjacura Posts: 808
    If Tiger drove non-Buicks to golfing events I believe his sponsor would have a problem.
    Privately his Masserati (or whatever) gathers no dust.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    I don't know how many people drive Buicks because of Tiger Woods but I bet there are a lot of golfers that will spend $400-500 on a new driver because it is used by Tiger Woods.
    Too bad his swing doesn't come with the club.
  • bartalk3bartalk3 Posts: 692
    An article in yesterday's New York Times revealed that despite all the new high-tech golf equipment of recent years, average scores over the country have not gone down, suggesting most of this stuff doesn't improve one's game (spoken by a non-golfer).
  • ksomanksoman Posts: 590
    maybe i'm not smart enough, cuz my average score is not high, but i bet that golf is mostly a mind game... nirvan-ic...

    as for tiger, i'm sure he's chaufered to golfing events and doesn't care what people see him step out of, cuz he's not driving...

    ksso
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    It's a mind game at the highest level particularly. But "it don't mean a thing if you don't have that swing."
  • warthogwarthog Posts: 216
    Tiger played a tournament in my city (Charlotte) a few weeks ago. The local MB dealer was a sponsor and furnished new Benzes to the top guys for their use during the tourney. My impression was that they drove themselves, but I didn't actually see any of them at the local Burger King. In any case, Tiger wasn't in a Buick.
  • msu79gt82msu79gt82 Posts: 541
    Thanks for the links.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    Well, if a car comes in 2nd or even 3rd place in a comparison test, can you really call it losing? Just a look at the number ratings show how close all the cars are. not to mention the cars place where they place because of the editor's personal preferences. Different people look for different things in a car, the road test placements mean very little.
  • cstilescstiles Posts: 465
    Although one cannot deny the consistently strong showings by the new M, I totally agree with you. Most of these comparison tests also conclude that the results are very close, and that virtually all of the cars are excellent in their own right. For everyday use, and for what typical consumers expect in a luxury performance automobile, just about all of these cars delivers in spades.

    The major auto rags also have an admitted bias toward speed and performance(with the possible exception of Automobile Magazine, which follows its own drummer and the musings of David E. Davis). Keeping that bias in mind, it's not surprising that the Infiniti scores so highly, thanks to horsepower, powertrain, handling dynamics, and braking performance.

    And relatively speaking, the M presents a good value proposition compared to its competitors. And it's also a new flavor that dares to zig where others zag. The new kid in the sandbox who shows up with the cool new toys will get his due.
  • bartalk3bartalk3 Posts: 692
    Good point: the car mags are biased toward speed and performance, and their ratings reflect primarily that.

    That's probably why the GS300 has been pretty much neglected. Not blazing speed. Buyers, however, may value other things such as ride, comfort, quiet, luxury, reliability, etc. So the car mags ratings must be taken with a couple of grains of you know what. CR, for my money, has the best balanced ratings, though in contrast to the car mags, speed and performance are definitely not their prime rating criteria. Handling, however, they do test and value.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I think Road and Track's "Rocking the establishment" review was the most interesting of the recent comparison tests. Price really wasnt a factor in this one, they took Infiniti's best, and BMW's best (short of the M5 of course), and came up with a winner...and it was the M45.

    For the record, it has lost though, Edmunds stupidly picked the GS430 as "Japan's best sports sedan", immediately after calling it the least sporty of Japan's three entries. Automobile's choice was the A6. The fact that the M45 has won such an overwhelming number of comparisons and has gotten such praise across the board is amazing though. Its not "Japan's best car". Its the best car in the segment. Period.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    The fact that the M45 has won such an overwhelming number of comparisons and has gotten such praise across the board is amazing though. Its not "Japan's best car". Its the best car in the segment. Period.

    I would say its the best if you're looking for sport first because it hasn't won in cases where the editors were looking for more luxury. I think that Edmunds and Automobile were looking for more lux than sport. Despite as to what Edmunds says they were looking for.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    "I would say its the best if you're looking for sport first"

    Yes I suppose thats true. Though the M45 is no IS300. There's still plenty of luxury to be had; I dont think its any worse than the 545i in that regard. Its just really nice to see at least one of Japan's big three taking on the competition in full force. Toyota and Honda have a history of taking timid steps in unknown markets, and it looks like Nissan's success is making them change their attitudes a bit. Honda especially, as I think Nissan's growth is putting a lot more pressure on Honda than Toyota.
  • suvguy2005suvguy2005 Posts: 19
    That is not true. If you read the Road and Track article you would have noticed that they state that the BMW was the sportiest and the Lexus the most luxurious. The Infiniti M45 was the best compromise between the two. Also keep in mind that all the comparisons so far have been with the "sport" model. So if you want a softer ride go with the "base" model.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Well that is only one article. That is true about the M45 splitting the difference there, but I doubt a base M is going to have the ride of a GS/E or a non-sport A6. Even the "base" M35 was on par with a 530i in the sport department according to that early comparo by MT. I seriously doubt that the base car is all that much softer. Also, the M interior seems more sport than luxury. Sure it has all the toys, but it didn't feel as much "luxury" as it did "sport", imo.

    M
  • cstilescstiles Posts: 465
    Just for the record, Japan's "Car of the Year" award went to the Honda Legend (aka Acura RL). It beat the Nissan Fuga, which is the JDM (lower HP) version of the M35/45.

    Although some suggest that Honda is acting "timid" by only offering a V6 spec RL, I would suggest that it is being more strategic and prudent with its product offering in this particular class. It could have invested more $$ to offer multiple versions of the RL to better compete with the M, G, A6, 5-series, E, and STS, but would Acura sales be dramatically higher if they had done so? Perhaps, but relative to the additional tooling, marketing, and design costs, it's certainly possible that supporting V6/V8 versions of this car may have resulted in a lower net income after all the dust settles. I question whether that would have been the smarter business move, although it would have been perceived to be a bolder move. (I agree with Lexusguy that you certainly don't want to be classified as being "timid," although I don't agree that this applies to Acura at the moment.)

    At the end of the day, I think it's more important to realize a higher net income from your operations, while also establishing and growing your brand as a potent benchmark within the lux perf category. Acura still has it work cut out to erase the memories of the previous RL and Legend. The true success of this new RL can only be quantified 3 years from now. It's too early to suggest that they are being "timid."

    I disagree that the Automobile comparison valued luxury over performance. If you carefully read that article, it is clear that they rated the A6 4.2 the highest based on its power, driving dynamics, and some sort of nebulous sense of "cache" that they attach to this car (Mark Cincinnati can relate to that "cache," I'm sure.) They also ranked these cars based on the "base MSRPs," which is unrealistic when you can't buy any of these cars (except for the RL) comparably equipped for these listed "base" prices. They also critcized the RL for lacking "Veritas." What the hell is that anyway?

    All of these articles have their inherent biases. I'm glad that they do, otherwise it would be utterly boring to read the same analysis over and over from one magazine to another. I also don't criticize the Edmunds review like so many others do....it's just a different take on cars that are closely matched in so many ways. Edmunds also said that their final results were razor thin close to one another.

    Desperate GM has run a full page ad in today's Chicago Tribune showing their 8 different JD Power awards. This includes their Gold and Silver ranking manufacturing plants. As previously stated, the JD Power profit center is alive and well.
  • rich545rich545 Posts: 386
    That's not true. If you look at the scoring on the last page, price was a factor. Also read the following from that article:

    As a pure sports sedan, the BMW still takes top honors. It remains the true driver's car, delivering the tightest handling, the most direct feedback and the biggest smiles. But throw subjective factors like styling, ride and interior functionality into the equation, and the negatives end up chipping away at the positives. For those who aren't bothered by these things, the 545i is the easy choice. But for the three of us blasting through the desert on this test, those factors did matter and ended up tipping the scales in favor of the Infiniti M45.

    So really the M45 ONLY beat it for subjective reasons. Not trying to take away from the M45. Sounds like a great car, but if you take price and styling out of the equation and focus on performance the writers clearly enjoyed the 545i more.
  • msu79gt82msu79gt82 Posts: 541
    I think Road and Track's "Rocking the establishment" review was the most interesting of the recent comparison tests. Price really wasnt a factor in this one, they took Infiniti's best, and BMW's best (short of the M5 of course), and came up with a winner...and it was the M45.

    As rich545 points out above Road and Track "cheated." They awarded the M45 Sport ~9 points based on "price as tested" all the while testing a nearly stripped M45. After loading up the M45 to a comparable equipment level as the other two cars the M45's lead over the 545i almost goes away and I'd call it a statistical tie.
  • msu79gt82msu79gt82 Posts: 541
    So really the M45 ONLY beat it for subjective reasons. Not trying to take away from the M45. Sounds like a great car, but if you take price and styling out of the equation and focus on performance the writers clearly enjoyed the 545i more.

    I agree with your comments regarding price points; however I must point out that styling plays a major part in one's enjoyment of a car. I can not conclude from anything they (or you) wrote that would indicate that the Road and Track Editor's "clearly enjoyed the 545i more". As I pointed out above, allowing for a price adjustment I'd say the comparison ended in a statistical tie (although the M still would have out-pointed the 545i as they indicated in the article).
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    If you look at the results on page 106 in Road and Track and nothing else you would swear that the 545 won this comparo. The 545 won 11 out of the 19 categories(almost 60%!). The M45 won only 5 categories. The GS430 won 3 categories.
    I have never seen a comparo where one car wins in so many categories and comes in #2. :confuse:
  • msu79gt82msu79gt82 Posts: 541
    Although some suggest that Honda is acting "timid" by only offering a V6 spec RL, I would suggest that it is being more strategic and prudent with its product offering in this particular class.

    Perhaps Acura was being prudent :confuse: But I do kow that the RL is overpriced and that dealers are not at all happy with sales figures. The RL has been heavily discounted since March, and there are many reports on various forums for below invoice pricing right now. :blush:
  • In the Car and driver comparo, they picked a $55,000 mark. Just enough to get an M45 with allmost the whole kitchen sink, but not enough to outfit a Mercedes/BMW/Cadillac with the goods. It would have taken just 5K more, but the results would have been very different.

    I don't believe motorttrend reviews for a second. They are about as unbiased as NPR. When they want a car to win, they will structure the criteria for a car to win, case in point: they counted heavily on money for last years comparo were the G35 won, yet a little later they did the comparo again, when the Cadillac CTS had the new 3.6L and guess what? no G35, and the Crysler 300 (why was it even in there?) could have had a v8 for the as tested price of the CTS, so the Cadillac won.
    I'm a cadillac fan, but why not test it against all of its competition?

    At least this is for sure, the best comparison test is when the buyer goes aout and test drives the competition.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Posts: 1,938
    The RL has been heavily discounted since March, and there are many reports on various forums for below invoice pricing right now.

    Got any links?
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 29,962

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