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Comments
I'm not sure if the key hole is there on all LPS's with keyless start, but I would suspect it is as a backup...
MotorTrend's Car Of The Year
Winner - Honda Civic
2nd - Mazda MX-5
3rd - BMW 3-series
A bit off topic but the M should have been in the top 3 and I'm sure they considered the GS, so now it's on-topic!? LOL!
I sometimes get "interested" (curiosity or envy? - who knows - I'm not a mind reader) looks from BMW owners. Bangle's 5 series are very common in SoCal but Ms are still a rare breed. A few told me they didn't even know about the car but wanted to know more.
PS When I do see another M we both nod at each other. Starting to form a brotherhood?
I have read a lot of good things lately about the Civic-especially about its great gas mileage-a very reasonable alternative to a hybrid.
I cant think of a more worthy car to choose as number one than the Honda Civic!
Honda Civic Sedan/Coupe
Honda Civic Si
Honda Civic Hybrid
These Civics satisfy a wide range of the car market, except ofcourse the luxury car market. Oops I am off topic again!
This forum isn't about M3 equivalents.
Mercedes-Benz and BMW are very different. I would say honestly that Mercedes-Benz over prices all of their cars by at least $5,000. The E-Class wagon starts at just under $60K, while the new A6 Avant starts at under $50K!
The use of the word "best" is not what this "award" is about. They choose the most significant auto that was released during the past year. Just look at their past winners - these cars were significant to the auto company involved or to the industry. The 3-series is BMW's bread and butter so they probably felt that BMW updated the car appropriately - I vaguely remember in their review of the 3-series when it first came out they praised BMW for not over-Banglizing the design and not making iDrive standard - although even I'm getting tired of the iDrive criticism.
For Infiniti the G sedan turned the company around and hence won the award. I thought the M might have been a contender not because it's the best LPS but because it's success thus far will likely mean the Infiniti will be more of a luxury player. Haven't actually read the article (early December) - just reporting what the editor said on CNBC. He did say that the 3-series was overpriced.
Top 10 Interiors for 2005
1. Audi A8/TT: Audi wrote the book when it comes to crafting stylish cabins. Slide into the A8's if you're looking for luxury. With loads of rear legroom and enough wood to fuel a forest fire, the A8 offers an environment that's more jaw-droppingly luxe than that of any other vehicle in its class. If sporty's more your thing, you'll love the TT's industrial-themed surroundings, which meld modern and retro elements.
2. BMW X5: BMW cabins are known for being governed by an air of almost spartan restraint. Not so with the X5's. There's no skimping on the poplar, and the leather is so creamy, it could raise your cholesterol. The X5's cabin is easily one of our favorite places to spend our time.
3. Lexus SC 430: The SC 430 offers one of the most exquisitely finished cabins we've ever seen. Its styling cues call to mind a plush drawing room in a Riviera hotel. Burnished wood is everywhere  and if you want even more timber, a spring-loaded wooden cover can be used to hide much of the center stack. The best part? It's a convertible, so passers-by will be able to enjoy your cabin with you.
4. Toyota Prius: With its deeply recessed gauges and idiosyncratic layout, the Prius's cockpit looks like something from a sci-fi flick. We especially like being able to watch a digital rendering of the inner workings of the car's hybrid technology on the center display screen. Vegans can enjoy this car in good conscience; this environmentally friendly hatch is resolutely leatherfree.
5. Honda Element: If you're the outdoorsy type, the Element's rugged, go-anywhere interior will no doubt whet your whistle. There's no carpeting on the floors, just a rugged material called Thermoplastic Olefin that may be wiped down or swept with a broom. And it's available with waterproof seats. Surfers and mountain bikers, the line starts here.
6. Maserati Coupe/Spyder: These Maseratis boast stunning sheet metal, but scoot into the cabin, and things get even better. Curvy lines, an elegantly clean aesthetic  on the inside, these cars look like something from a very glamorous foreign film, circa 1965. The only thing missing is Sophia Loren in the passenger seat.
7. Rolls-Royce Phantom: Brushed aluminum. Bird's eye maple. Supple cowhide. With the storied Rolls-Royce name behind it and a price tag of over $300 grand, you'd expect the Phantom's interior to be heaven on earth  and it is. The only bad thing about getting inside this car is getting back out again.
8. Toyota Sienna: The Sienna's spacious interior offers a lot more luxury and style than you have a right to expect from a minivan; slide inside, and you'll swear you've stepped into a Lexus. Polished wood touches and baby-soft leather make this van's cabin a leader in its class.
9. Porsche Cayenne: When you settle into the cockpit of the Cayenne, you get a leather-drenched experience that delights all the senses. The artfully lit cabin seduces the eye with its blend of high gloss and performance edge. And the cabin feels even better than it looks. We couldn't stop running our fingers over the downy suede that lines the roof.
10. Volkswagen Passat: Thank goodness for the Passat, the car that proves you don't have to pay an arm and a leg to ride in style. Its interior is clean, modern and surprisingly upscale, given that this is an affordable family car. For the money, you won't find a better-looking cabin.
The 3 most significant autos were selected. Not necessarily the 3 "best."
In that case I don't know why the 2006 3 series was selected. It doesn't drive significantly better than the 2005 3 series and the brakes in the 2006 3 series are disturbingly grabby! And the rear headlights are absolutely horrid!
Some real significant BMW news:
BMW was selected by KBB for having the best resale brand-tied for first with Mini.
BMW was also selected by ALG for its residual value award in the luxury brand category for the second consecutive year.
See High End Luxury Marques, post # 11407 for the links.
Love it or hate it, one must admit BMW's hold their value quite well over time.
Absolutely BMW's best interior.
Nobody could argue about the quality of the wood in this vehicle.
Fantastic amount of legroom. Great seats.
Drove the 4.4L V-8, 5 months ago.
Almost closed on one, until I saw the gas mileage statistics.
Ugh!
Took the 545 instead.
Now, prestige should not be a factor when selecting a car, but the bottom line is; it is a factor. Whether we want to admit or not, prestige is a factor with every purchase. For example, a Timex will keep time for $20. A Rolex will also keep time for $3800 on up. Why buy the Rolex? Two reasons, Prestige and a Great Watch.
Now, back to cars. The M is very well made, it is a great value, but it does not yet have the same class, status, years of engineering expertise, and sophistication of a 5 Series BMW. Reality is Reality. I know some people are going to say that the M drives better. Maybe, maybe not. But, I think everyone will agree the driving and handling of a BMW is superb. Interior could be better in my honest opinion. But, it is a typical BMW and the interior is nice, it just is not Lexus nice. But, the BMW has soul.
In regards to Bangle 5 Series, the design always catches my eye. I like the design as others do. Some people do not like it. But, the funny thing is, other car manufacturers seem to be copying the Bangle design. In fact, I see much of the Bangle Design in the Infiniti M.
Here is how I sum up a BMW in regards to the competition. The competition reminds me of a GREAT Girl I once knew:
She was a good girl, knew her way around, blueblood, excellent grades, low maintenance, good bod, high energy, and athletic tennis player, but lacked a cool factor, spirit, sophistication, and boring as hell.
"
Interesting articles.
In the KBB article under their listing of "2006 Best Resale Value: Top 10" both the Infiniti G35 and M45 made the list as well as the 5-series. Under their listing for "2006 Best Resale Value: Luxury Category" the M45 beat out the 5-series stating "The luxury segment is littered with vehicles that hold their value extremely well. In this competitive field the Infiniti M45 stands out because of its brand-new styling and its strong concentration on performance and consumer-pleasing content."
The ALG survey is for 2005 cars only so the M wasn't around. Curious that the G35 was best in it's segment and no BMW won any segment. Just leads me to believe that BMW had no "residual losers" so their average rating would be higher than say M-B which had a few winners but also a few turkeys which lowered their average rating below BMW. Infiniti did have two 5-star depreciation cars - the FX and G while the BMW 5-series was rated as only 4-stars. Wouldn't surprise me that for 2006 the M might also be a 5-star.
Because they base the depreciation and residuals numbers on MSRP Lexus has a built-in disadvantage. They have a much wider difference between actual selling price and MSRP so Lexus offers some pretty steep discounts compared to other cars. Say a BMW costs 50K, you get 1K off and it depreciates 38% from its selling price giving a value of 30.4K for a 61% residual. The Lexus costs 50K, you get 5K off and it also depreciates 38% from its selling price giving a value of 27.9K for a 56% residual. So even though both cars depreciated the same from the actual cash outlay, the BMW has a better resale percentage. Looks can be deceiving.
Wasn't it Mark Twain that said "There are three types of liars: liars, damn liars and statistics."
I agree with you 100% on this. I stated in one of my earlier posts this was actually one factor I considered. Everyone has to decide how much the badge (i.e. "prestige") means to them. To me it was not that important.
PS Which girl would make a better wife and mother - I definitely value these more than a car.
As to which girl makes a better wife and mother. Well, if your wife is boring to you, chances are you are not going to stay married very long.
Ask a Divorce Attorney what is the number cause of divorce, one spouse is boring to the other spouse, which leads to affairs. You have be able to have fun in a car and in marriage.
In this country where troopers and local police continue to harass the driving public with inane speeding tickets when study after study shows that cars can be driven fast and safely at the same time, that's why I'm afraid I have to draw the line on a car like the M3. Just a lot of potential, but alas, wasted power. If you can't have fun in a car like that, then what's the point of BMW selling it in the USA in the first place?
Now, back to cars. The M is very well made, it is a great value, but it does not yet have the same class, status, years of engineering expertise, and sophistication of a 5 Series BMW.
Nissan's car making history goes back to 1911...so much for "years of engineering expertise" in BMW's favor. Nissan also was not bombed to oblivion during WW2 like BMW was. Status I'll give you, the rest is pure :lemon:
Quite a remarkable feat of recovery for BMW, given its preeminence in today's world.
Quite the irony that Nissan is playing catchup to BMW, given your WW2 scenario.
Although I am on my fourth pushbutton start, this one has worked for 2 months, without issue, a new record.
The MSRP of the LPS cars: Audi A6 3.2, BMW 330xi and Infiniti M35x are NOT similar, but they are within some reason competitive. My A6 with the options as I built it was $53,286; the BMW would be ~ $57K, the Infiniti about $51K -- the lease payments, however (initially) put the cars in this order (but there WAS NO 530xi, so this is a guess based on the then current 530i) BMW, Infiniti and Audi. The Audi was about $200 MORE than the BMW and the Infiniti.
I wanted an AWD car -- I would not buy an RWD car with YOUR money -- the Audi was way more expensive than the Infiniti (before the deal came through from Audi) and there was no AWD 5 from BMW, but the then current MORE EXPENSIVE 5 was less money from a lease standpoint.
If BMW wants to offer a car that is over 5% more MSRP for over 22% less per month on a comparable lease, hmm, gee, gosh, the BMW deserves your attention.
The BMW is ugly (to me), but it certainly is at least as good as the Audi behind the wheel (ditto the Infiniti).
There is little reason to pay more for any of these cars than the others -- they are far more similar than not.
Again this is the conclusion and the place I have come to rest (after 27 Audis).
What this means is I am, thus far, biased -- I think the Audi is the better car, overall. But some factors have happened: BMW now offers AWD and retained the stick shift and Infiniti now builds a car that needs to make no excuses to play with the Audi and BMW.
Price has, for me, for once (and possibly from this point on) become a differentiator.
For years, BMW's couldn't touch Audis WHEN PRICE WAS FACTORED in -- not so anymore.
To underscore this, my 2001 A6 4.2 V8 sport with every option was less money (both in MSRP and lease payments) than a 2001 RWD BMW 5 with all the options and a 6 cylinder. At the time, I figured all folks buying such a BMW when the 4.2 V8 quattro Audi was offered for less, bought the hood emblem, rather than the absolute performance.
Now we are at a place where the BMW, Audi and Infiniti LPS AWD versions are all great cars.
Price, for right or wrong, has become far more of a differentiator than performance.
And, yes, it is one man's opinion. Mine.
You may argue your for your fave -- and from a styling standpoint, you have a leg to stand on -- but the Infiniti M and the BMW (and I think the Audi) are not THAT different beyond the cosmetic.
As someone famous once said, "I wouldn't kick any of these out for eating crackers in bed, in fact I would not be opposed to bringing the crackers."
I am happy with my A6 -- I am without a doubt, certain I would have been delighted with the M35X, too.
In the present tense, the 530xi manual would get my vote if it were competitively priced (lease payments.)
Gone are the days, IMHO, of Audis "superior by virtue of being a bargain + being AWD."
The customer wins from where I sit. :shades:
Yep, that is how many people feel about the classic, elegant, superbly engineered beauty, know as the BMW 5 Series.
Please provide some type of backup to this wild assertion.
But I'd like to add that a poseur does not buy something to look cool, they buy things that are out of their range/capability. Given the latter definition we can include Lexus, INfiniti, Acura and many, many more manufacturers as cars poseurs buy.
If you were talking about the E39 - the pre-Bangle 5-series - I'd probably agree with you. A well-cared-for E39 still turns my head.
I'm a satisfied BMW owner (an E46-gen 330i), so you'd expect me to favor the 5-series over the Infiniti M. But the E60 simply doesn't fill me with the urge to possess. Whereas the E39 looked sensuous & organic to me, the E60 strikes me as forced & contrived. I won't say that it's downright ugly, but it's within shouting distance of homely.
Even so, given a choice between the M & the 5, I'd probably buy the 5, but for just 1 reason: I can have the 5 with a stick. For me, that trumps styling. Take away the stick, & I'd probably buy the M.
It would, or should if you are looking for maximum "P," merit your attention for no other attribute than the fact that it can still be had with a manual transmission.
As good as these automatics have become, they are still quite primitive when compared with your eyes, feet and hands working in harmony to control your LPS car.
I must be becoming "velocitized" to my automatic -- and this troubles me -- I really don't have much to complain about the transmission that Audi has put into the new A6 (unlike the 5 spd tiptronics of yesteryear.)
But the isolation from part of the driving experience would not be missed if all of these cars would come standard with manual transmissions.
Fun, safety and performance (in any order you want) are increased with a stick shift.
And, despite my belief that this is at least 51% objective, this is clearly a minority opinion, for most of us here are NOT likely to NOT buy based solely on the availability of a manual transmission.
My dealer says, "try selling one of these things without a sunroof, no one would buy." I assume this means the sunroof is more important than the transmission -- "what a world, what a world" (wicked witch of the west as she melts away.)
The fleecing of America.
Those guys are out there trying to bust me for "speeding" and right around the holiday season, they call me to make a donation.
Waiting for the phone to ring...
I couldn't agree more, Mark, but I fear that the day is not far off when even BMW will decide that sticks no longer make business sense in the North American market.
When I bought my car a few years ago, my dealer couldn't locate a single 330i sedan with MT anywhere in the Northeast. (I live in a NYC suburb.) Even after dropping color & option preferences from his search criteria, he couldn't find a 4-door car with a stick anywhere between the Canadian border & Washington, DC. Only by placing a factory order & waiting for 11 weeks could I get what I wanted.
I'd like to believe that someday, before I die, BMW will bring a 5-series to market that's as visually appealing to me as the E39 & the E46 were & that this wonderful car will be available with 3 (count 'em!) pedals on the floor. But I'm not at all hopeful.
Thanks for uncovering this "conspiracy" by BMW.
You'll have to excuse me, but since I have had no trouble from BMW cars, which have been my exclusive vehicles since 1993, I really have no idea what you are talking about.
Foolish for the conspirators to offer 4 years of free maintenance.
Really tough to make a really good conspiracy these days.
Rats!
You will see quite a few LS430's.
No 911's or Jags and certainly no Vettes.
But when I feel that comfort seat envelop me and then start driving the vehicle and wonder at how uncannily this car has perfectly adapted to my driving style after 4 months, I can easily overlook any stylistic eccentricities.
BMW's have always been about the driving, not the styling.
People who constantly fixate on the Bangle styling are missing the point, IMHO.
You'll have to excuse me, but since I have had no trouble from BMW cars, which have been my exclusive vehicles since 1993, I really have no idea what you are talking about.
Foolish for the conspirators to offer 4 years of free maintenance.
I am not saying there is or is not a conspiracy. But your statement is not a valid reason as there is not one.
The free maintenance has nothing to do with failed components. Maintenance includes things such as filter change---can be viewed as a lump sum discount at purchase. It's the warranty that is related to the "conspiracy." However, BMW's warranty, at 4 years, is the same as everyone else.
I would agree that it is foolish for the conspirators to offer more than 4 years of warranty. But BMW the conspirator does not do that.
An excellent question, though I'd substitute "any other LPS" for "BMW". I can honestly say that with the exception of a couple of the super expensive Mercedes, I never feel envious of any other car that pulls up beside me, or that I read about. I love my RL and wouldn't trade it for any of the usual suspects discussed on this board. I can admire many of the qualities of the various cars, without being envious of them. That, I think, is the bottom line for me.
Cars that have serious reliability problems do not sell.
Witness the mess that is the entire US auto industry over the last 30 years.
People are not stupid.
I think it takes $$$$$
At least CR does is NOT influenced by ad $$$$.
The greatest difference between brilliance and stupidity is that brilliance has its limits.
Witness the current reliability problems of a luxury brand and contrast that with their sales volumes.
That's what happens when people buy the badge instead of the car.
One guy across the street got a MB C Class last year.
I notice that car is gone. Replaced it with a Toyota!
Didn't last long.
I am looking to purchase a luxury sedan (my first one ever). I know I definitely want a Mercedes or BMW. I am debating between a C-Class Mercedes and a 5 Series BMW. I don't know exactly all of the options I want in the car just yet, but I do know I want an automatic, I can't drive a stick nor do I want to learn. :-) What other options should I be looking for in a luxury sedan. What's standard? What are the must have's? I would like to buy a pre-owned vehicle as opposed to a brand new one. Perferably no more than 3 years old.
I would like to know where to start as far as researching vehicles, finding out what the recent problems have been, etc. Seeing photos, comparing vehicles etc. I have read some of the messages and it looks like the Mercedes owners have been having some problems.
I am not looking to purchase right away because I am working on some other things financially first. I also want to save a nice down payment. What is a nice downpayment to work with. I would like to have at least $10k. Should I go through the dealership for financing, my credit union...? Do you have to have AAAAA+ credit to finance a luxury sedan? Also can you just go in a test drive vehicles even if you are not purchasing right away without the high pressure sales tactics?
Those are just a few things off the top of my head. Any other advice would be greatly appreciated!
I would never buy a BMW again if there is no stick!
And if no other manufacturer sells a car with a stick, I will give up any attempts of buying a car for performance reasons.