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Honda Accord Hybrid vs. Toyota Camry Hybrid

usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Posts: 759
edited March 15 in Honda
Accord mild hybrid will probably be offered with a manual transmission but Camry full hybrid will offer only in electronic controlled CVT transmission. Based on that, we will probably have two different groups supporting both sides.

Full hybrid is more efficient and powerful than a mild hybrid. I will provide facts regarding those two different design with available data from the Civic Hybrid and the Prius.

There will not be a limit if Honda offer Accord hybrid coupe into the comparison but let's focus on sedan vs. sedan.

Dennis
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Comments

  • Honda Civic Hybrid Internal Combustion Engine Power Curve

    image

    Prius Internal Combustion Engine Power Curve
    image

    Atkinson cycle ICE in HSD has super flat torque(blue) curve. What you don't see in that graph is engine efficiency. Atkinson cycle ICE(1,500-5,000RPM) in HSD is more efficient than Honda's Otto cycle ICE peak(at certain RPM) efficiency.

    Dennis
  • Honda Civic Hybrid
    image

    Prius 2004
    image

    This graph isn't a direct comparison because Prius graph shows speed(km/h) rather than RPM. Prius has plenty of horsepower(red curve) between 30km/h(17mph) and 90km/h(56mph). No wonder Prius is faster than 4 cylinder Camry in 30-50 mph acceleration test.

    Horsepower delivery shoots up very quickly and there are plenty of power in mid-range speed. The torque at the wheel decreases as the car gets faster. Consistent with changing into higher gear as in traditional transmission car.

    Dennis
  • Honda Civic Hybrid

    ICE + 10KW Motor/Generator + Mechanical CVT
    image

    Prius 2004

    ICE + 10KW Motor/Generator1 + Planetary ECVT + 50KW Motor/Generator2
    image

    The size seems comparable yet HSD(THSII) contains extra 295 lbs-ft torque 50KW electric motor in it as well.

    Dennis
  • Honda Civic Hybrid CVT
    Curb Weight: 2736 lbs
    City/Highway: 48 mpg / 47 mpg

    Toyota Prius ECVT
    Curb Weight: 2890 lbs
    City/Highway: 60 mpg / 51 mpg

    Prius is bigger(mid-size) and heavier yet more fuel efficient.

    Dennis
  • HSD transmission is an amazing work of art. The car is always in the top gear and lowest gear at the same time! You might be wondering how can it be? HSD can achieve this because there is only one gear ratio(permanently engaged).

    HSD power response is instantaneous, within milliseconds. No shifting, no delay, no jerking, no power fluctuation, just smooth like a jet.

    Check out how small the Power Split Device(red area between two motors) which enables ECVT in Hybrid Synergy Drive.

    image.

    Dennis
  • I might be wrong but I left very little room for someone to argue for an Accord mild hybrid IMA design.

    Dennis
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,697
    Dennis, where have you heard that Honda will offer the Accord hybrid with a stick? To my knowledge, Honda has never before offered an Accord V6 4-door sedan with a stick shift, at least in the USA. They do offer the Accord V6 coupe with a six-speed stick. Now that would be an interesting configuration for the hybrid. Anyone know if it will it be offered as a coupe? Toyota could of course offer the Solara as a hybrid; it's got the same powertrains and chassis as the Camry. But I've heard no rumors of a hybrid Solara.
  • sorry, I just assumed. I figured if they offer HCH with stick, they might offer HAH with a stick.

    Dennis
  • bamacarbamacar Posts: 749
    Efficiency is only one factor to be considered. I would be happy with Civic like efficiency and Accord V6 power. Honda's V6 has 240hp and is much preferred over the Toyota's 210hp. The electric is only one part of the equation. Another factor is the sportier Honda ride, and the Buick-look dash in the Camry I can do without.
  • bamacarbamacar Posts: 749
    I wish Honda would add the hybrid technology to the Accord 4 cylinder- manual transmission LX that would be good for me. About 190hp combined horsepower and even better efficiency than the 6 cylinders. Plus I just enjoy the manual transmission which you can forget about being an option on a Camry.
  • It's not about power but it is how you use it. Prius only has 76hp ICE and it performs better than HCH CVT with 93hp engine. Prius also weights more than HCH. How is it possible? The answer is in the electric part of the hybrid. Since hybrids do not need to plug in, all the power are coming from the ICE directly or indirectly. HSD uses 76hp ICE in a more efficient manner than IMA design.

    Dennis
  • HCH CVT Curb Weight: 2736 lbs
    HCH CVT ICE horsepower: 93 hp
    HCH CVT Weight per Power ratio: 29.4 lbs/hp

    Prius Curb Weight: 2890 lbs
    Prius ICE horsepower: 76 hp
    Prius Weight per Power ratio: 38.0 lbs/hp

    If Honda Accord Hybrid weights 3400lbs and have the same weight per power ratio as HCH, it will need 3400lbs/29.4=115.6 hp ICE.

    If Toyota Camry Hybrid weights 3500lbs and to have the same weight per power ratio as Prius, it will need 3500lbs/38.0=92.1 hp ICE.

    So, in theory, Camry Hybrid with ICE 209hp could outperform an Accord Hybrid with 270hp ICE.

    Dennis
  • bamacarbamacar Posts: 749
    We are comparing execution of cars with ICEs of 76hp & 93hp to one with 240hp and another one with ?hp. It is a tough sell. I understand what you are trying to do, but we will see when these cars get here. Once again it is not all about efficiency or 0-60 times. In a few years Honda and Toyota may have hybrid cars that make the present Prius look like a dinosaur.

    The Honda Insight was a great start. The first Prius blew its doors off. The HCH blew the Prius away. The second generation Prius blew the HCH away. What will Honda do next?
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    The 210 3.0L Toyota engine is soon to be retired, with a 3.5L 225+ hp engine recently announced at TMMK for the 2006 Avalon and Camry. Camrys-all trim levels for 2005 will be offered with the 3.3L 225 hp engine, which also produces 240 foot pounds of torque @ 3600 RPM, much preferred to Honda's 212 @ 5000 RPM. Transmissions are upgraded too (but perhaps we shouldnt go down the transmission road, what with that tiny Honda recall and all...)

    ~alpha
  • bamacarbamacar Posts: 749
    comparisons between the latest Accord and Camry? Oh, it has been unanimous. Can you say Honda? Lets hope that Toyota can keep the sludge issue out of the hybrids or it could get ugly. Can we stick to the topic at hand instead of nonpertinent issues that try to build up Toyota- whether it be non-Accord transmissions or sludge?
  • mistermemisterme Posts: 407
    I wonder if Toyota will keep its customers waiting...say 6-9 months for thier Camry hybrid?

    I'm not guessing which will be the better car: I don't have any idea.

    If Honda has its Accord ready to go on the lot....
    Steve
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The Prius wait list wasnt something Toyota did on purpose to drum up excitement for the car. The demand for the car literally caught them completely by surprise. Theres a wait list because Toyota cant make them fast enough. Since Camry and Highlander are already well established models, with large scale prodcution in place, I wouldnt expect a shortage on the scale of the Prius
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,697
    Since Toyota will be hybridizing the 3.3L V6 for their SUVs this fall, it makes sense that is the engine that will be in the '06 Camry hybrid--keep costs down by using an existing powertrain.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    Dont get your panties up in a bunch, I just thought your post was a bit smarmy, so I decided to offer you some facts with regard to the Toyota 3.0L V6 engine.

    If you've EVER read anything else that I've posted, youd know that I agree the Accord is probably the most well rounded car in the segment, and that I think an EX 4 5A w/ side curtains is likely the best value for most people.

    But- significant upgrades for the 2005 Camry are in store, and the new Legacy looks like its going to steal some thunder as well.

    Happy Motoring!
    ~alpha
  • In a traditional economy car, ICE power is sacrificed for better fuel efficiency. Hybrids gives better fuel efficiency and at the same time gives better power efficiency. We all are familiar with fuel efficiency by looking at EPA numbers. Let me explain the power efficiency.

    HCH only has 93hp ICE and performs almost like EX with 127hp ICE. Therefore, IMA design gives about 36%[{(127-93)/93}*100] higher power efficiency than ICE only Civic EX.

    Prius only has 76hp ICE and Toyota would normally put 145hp engine if it were ICE only car. I got 145hp by considering size weight of Corolla and 4cyl Camry where Prius is in between them. Therefore, HSD design gives about 91% higher power efficiency than a normal ICE only car.

    Based on HSD 1.91% power efficiency value, I can estimate that 4 cylinder Camry hybrid can perform like an Accord V6 with 240hp ICE if and only if, Camry hybrid Atkinson cycle ICE outputs 126hp(240/1.91) and electric motors are proportional in power(about 96KW) of the Prius.

    This Camry hybrid Atkinson ICE with 126hp will most likely be more fuel efficient than Honda Civic EX 127hp Otto ICE. Camry hybrid with 4 cylinder engine can have performance of an Accord V6 with fuel economy of a Honda Civic! Isn't it what Honda trying to do with an Accord hybrid? Interesting...

    Dennis
  • venus537venus537 Posts: 1,443
    how did i guess correctly that it was you who started this topic?

    and since you started this topic you should know it's accord hybrid vs camry hybrid and not civic hybrid vs prius.

    first of all, it's an error in logic to compare these two upcoming cars based upon the HCH and prius. your assumption that the accord hybird will come with a stick is a clear example.

    you actually think their won't be any improvements and innovations to honda's IMA hybrid system with the accord. that would be like making the assumption that new prius wasn't going to have any improvements over the previous dismal model.

    and lets don't forget the accord hybrid will also have cylinder deactiviation to enhance fuel economy.

    fuel economy isn't going to be such an overriding factor with the accord hybrid as it is with the prius and HCH as power performance will also be enhanced.

    and you presenting the "facts" of both sides is sort of like rush limbaugh presenting the liberal cause. the facts aren't even known for the accord hybrid, just speculation.
  • venus537venus537 Posts: 1,443
    are you sure the 3.5l will be a replacement engine for the 3.0l and not just be an additional engine?

    i see the 3.5l targeted for the avalon but not replacing the 3.0l in the camry.

    what's next? the accord getting the 3.2l or 3.5l engine.
  • The data that I presented about HCH and Prius were indeed facts. The comparisons between IMA and HSD design can be related to make an educated guess about Accord hybrid and Camry hybrid. Don't take this "guess" as an absolute scientific result. Note: I used words like could, most likely, probably, etc...

    Dennis
  • venus537venus537 Posts: 1,443
    speaking of high mileage cars, what about the new passat diesel? in "real" world driving the passat gets very close to the prius in gas mileage?

    and with the passat's much better interior, ride, handling and performance, tell me again why one should get the prius.

    emissions and reliability perhaps.
  • venus537venus537 Posts: 1,443
    well i be disappointed in honda if they don't make any significant improvements and innovations to their IMA hybrid system with the accord. really disappointed if that's the case for the next generation HCH.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,697
    emissions and reliability perhaps.

    You hit it on the button. I was actually considering buying a Passat wagon (1.8T, diesel not yet available here) until I read the horror stories on reliability on the Passat board here. I do wish that Honda and Toyota would bring back the wagon versions of the Accord and Camry, though. As hybrids, of course. I prefer the wagon configuration to SUVs.
  • mistermemisterme Posts: 407
    I thought this thread was entitled:
    Honda Accord Hybrid vs. Toyota Camry Hybrid

    Not just another Prius VS HCH vs ICE board again!
    IMA VS Sentry we can deal with!

    Back to post #18 by lexusguy:
    Still Accord will sell more if there isn't any Camrys on the lot!
    Steve
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    This is a quote from a TMMK employee from another message board

    "V6 Powertrain had an announcement today concerning a "new" V6 engine they would be building for the 2006 Camry and Avalon."

    I dont know if that directly answers your question, but that statement was also accompanied by one that indicated the phase out of the 3.0L V6.

    ~alpha
  • andy71andy71 Posts: 96
    Toyota just introduced the "new" 3.3L V6 for Toyota Camry SE and Highlander, Lexus ES and RX; will this engine be obsolete within 2 years of its introduction?
  • I hate to break it to you, but magazine comparison tests and Car of the Year awards usually have little or no bearing on the buying public.

    The only thing magazine awards are good for are for advertisement fodder. Ad execs eat that stuff up.

    I could personally care less if the Accord (or Camry or whatever) wins anything at all. It's just the magazine's opinion, nothing more, nothing less.
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