Has Honda's run - run out?

boaz47

Do you believe a 85 HP 11.1 second to 60 1.3 or 1.4 is over due in the US? I just don't see it. Even the Rio would have more punch than a Fit. The Civic Hatchback didn't do very well as I understand it and it had more HP than a Fit.

npaladin2000

"reliable cars that are a good value for the dollar and a little more fun than average cars in their class."

Unfortunately for Honda, Mazda is already doing that

npaladin2000: Mazda fanboy

nippononly

the engine line-up for the NA version of the Fit wouldn't have to be the same as the options for the JDM version, or even the Canadian or European versions. Indeed, I would expect it to offer options with a little more oomph (although knowing Honda, not that much more).

I was just thinking Civic has gotten kind of big and kind of expensive relative to true entry-level offerings. Toyota has its Scion now, and I think it would serve Honda well to have a truly inexpensive, decently equipped, compact model available.

npaladin: I know Mazda is already doing that, but no offense, I think Honda can do it better. It has in the past. For some reason it hasn't done it lately.

And on the flip side, I wonder if they would have any success if they tried to sell a car larger than Accord? Or perhaps they could introduce a sports car/sport coupe that is a bit more affordable than the S2000. Something to fight the multiple Solstice variants, both roadster and fixed-roof, that are going to hit the market in a year's time.

npaladin2000

"npaladin: I know Mazda is already doing that, but no offense, I think Honda can do it better. It has in the past. For some reason it hasn't done it lately."

It's likely that they aren't because they've gotten too big. They have to be a regular "appeal to the most common denominator" company to keep their sales up and cover expenses. The bigger a car company wants to be, the more people they have to appeal to. And the large majority of Americans want boring snoozeboxes (the fools), borne out by the continued demand for GMs, Toyotas, etc.

When they were a smaller company Honda could focus on a specific segment and cater to it. They're too big to do that now. They have to cater to the "mass market" now that they've decided to compete with GM and Toyota, and leave focus segments like that to Subaru and Mazda.

You might THINK Honda can do it better, but they'll lose the mass-market "snoozebox" buyer, and then their sales will drop too far for Honda to sustain itself.

Take, for instance, the Solstice. Toyota's been selling their version of the idea (the MR2) for a while. Never got big, but they make a few sales. It's stagnating though, and they never advertise it. GM's leaving it to it's "performance" brand, but to reduce costs, they're basing it on a platform to be shared across the entire brand. Why? The Miata already OWNS this segment, and no one's been able to touch it. Unless you think we need another Civic Del Sol? May I remind you what happened to the LAST one?

isellhondas

Not many people get very excited over Mazdas. The much hyped "6" hasn't done anything nor have many of their other new models for the most part.

I've owned three RX-7's and two Miatas and these were great cars. I'm a fan of Mazdas as USED cars because they offer good value at a much lower price than a similar Honda or Toyota. They just don't have great resale.

npaladin2000

Sounds like the story that people used to tell about Honda.

gee35coupe

That's why the Accord and Civic are among the most researched cars on the internet.

saugatak

You know, your posts are getting tiring. First of all, don't you think "explode" is a bit over the top?

What's getting tiresome is your constant harping on Honda's resale value. When the latest numbers are in, there is no doubt that the CR-V resale value is going down.

I think "explode" describes the situation perfectly and is appropriate when an engine spontaneously combusts into flames.

My wife drives and loves her 2003 CRV. It's our second one. Had the oil changed for the second time last week and drove home without a thought of a problem.

It would be a damn shame if that car exploded on her.

Oh, sorry to disappoint you but used CRV's remain in VERY high demand and they enjoy VERY high resale values. I should know since I sell them.

Yes, you're obligated to say that (tiresomely, AGAIN) since you have to defend your living.

saugatak

How truly sad and restricted your life must be to go through it with such an alarmist, hand-wringer attitude. Kinda reminds me of the kid who wouldn't go outside in the sunlight because he was scared of his own shadow...

Um, you go around calling me a barracks lawyer when you, an admitted non-lawyer, go around spouting completely off-the-base legal advice.

Then you say I really didn't mean to call you a barracks lawyer when your post refers to me by name.

Next you criticize everyone for convicting Honda without full investigation or evidence, but refuse to give the same benefit of the doubt on the Jiffy Lube boys.

Finally, when I ask you, "Would you allow your wife and family to drive a CR-V?", instead of answering this legitimate question, you respond with a personal attack.

And I know why you resorted to a personal attack too. Because if you answer my question truthfully and say you'd dump the CR-V, you've revealed yourself yet again to be a hypocrite.

If you lie and say I would keep my wife in the CR-V, you've revealed how cheap you are.

If it's this easy to trap you on a forum, I'd imagine that defense lawyers are having a field day slamming you in court.

newcar31

"Looks like the Honda Element is the latest victim of the mysterious oil change fires...."

Hmmm...the Element too? There must be something about the *design* of the Element and CR-V since they are mechanically identical.

npaladin2000

"Oh, sorry to disappoint you but used CRV's remain in VERY high demand and they enjoy VERY high resale values. I should know since I sell them.

Yes, you're obligated to say that (tiresomely, AGAIN) since you have to defend your living."

Oh no, that's not it at all. It's just that the older CR-Vs don't burst into flames, so they're in higher demand than the new ones.

npaladin2000

"Hmmm...the Element too? There must be something about the *design* of the Element and CR-V since they are mechanically identical."

Not even close, but they DO use a similar engine (tuned a bit differently). How does the positioning of the oil filter compare in each vehicle?

driftracer

"go around spouting completely off-the-base legal advice"

I haven't given any legal advice - in fact, I completely shy away from giving this type of advice because I'm not qualified, nor would I want to be qualified - lawyering just ain't my cup of tea, given the way I was raised.

I completely missed your CRV question, if you asked one - I don't own one, and wouldn't - no offense to Honda, but I like BIG trucks (ordering a 2005 Ford F-350 Crew Cab Powerstroke Dually 4x4) and fast, V-8 cars (getting another Cobra next spring) - Honda doesn't make anything I'm interested in right now.

If I did have a CRV, though, I'd be changing my own oil, and there wouldn't be a fire caused by my negligence. If, by chance, it did happen, I guess my CRV would be totalled by my insurance company and I'd buy another one.

I'm sorry, but no amount of bashing, like that negative stuff you spewed about how I get beat up in court, will make me sway over to the hand-wringer side.

isellhondas

Yes, it would be a shame if my wife's CRV were to catch fire. It would also be a shame if our house caught fire. About equal odds I would think.

I don't have to defend anything. I KNOW what I'm talking about when I say resale values HAVE NOT been affected even on the later models. I know that must disappoint you. for most people, the sky isn't falling!

I don't know where you are getting your "numbers" from.

isellhondas

Drift, probably best to ignore this guy. I know I've had enough of him!

driftracer

newcar31

"Not even close, but they DO use a similar engine (tuned a bit differently). How does the positioning of the oil filter compare in each vehicle?"

Car and Driver says the Element is on a modified CR-V chassis. I'd expect the drivetrains to be similar, if not the same. Edmunds says: "Behind the Element's bulldoglike snout is the same 2.4-liter inline four found in the CR-V."

saugatak

Drift, probably best to ignore this guy. I know I've had enough of him!

It was YOU who attacked me, not vice versa.

If you wanted to ignore me, all you had to do was keep your mouth zipped.

npaladin2000

Hmm, photos of both engines areas near the oil filter would be right nice about now..pretty interesting too. Maybe isellhondas could provide...?

saugatak

I haven't given any legal advice - in fact, I completely shy away from giving this type of advice because I'm not qualified, nor would I want to be qualified - lawyering just ain't my cup of tea, given the way I was raised.

Well you sure sound like a lawyer when you say things like this:

"No, a group of 12 people not smart enough to get out of jury duty ruled against them. That third juror, the 7-11 clerk, knows as much about the law as I know about geothermal physics."

"No, just the party they like the most, usually the consumer, whether right or wrong - it's not about "the law", it's about a popularity contest and which lawyer can put on the best K-9 and Equestrian Demonstration (dog and pony show)... "

You've also pronounced other people's statements to be that of a "barrack lawyer" as opposed to a "true lawyer."

You've conviced oil change guys as being responsible for the CR-V fires w/o giving them their day in court.

Sounds like legal advice to me.

I don't know how you were raised, but I doubt your mom taught you to say things like "Mfletouva, you're a liar" or "Third juror, your 7-11 education means your opinion is worthless."

I don't own one, and wouldn't - no offense to Honda, but I like BIG trucks (ordering a 2005 Ford F-350 Crew Cab Powerstroke Dually 4x4) and fast, V-8 cars (getting another Cobra next spring) - Honda doesn't make anything I'm interested in right now.

The question is, if you owned a CR-V, would you keep it or trade it in? The question has nothing to do with what you own now.

nippononly

"If you wanted to ignore me, all you had to do was keep your mouth zipped."

I thought Edmunds' whole point was to speak up and give your opinion! It is a little hot in here lately.

Some people think CRVs are dangerous, others think it is overblown. Shouldn't we just let the officials charged with public safety make the call? We are certainly not engineers with intimate knowledge of all facets of the issue.

gagrice

I don't trust the the Officials or the automakers to be honest. They never have been never will be. Look at the Chrysler door latches, 37 dead children over 11 years before anything was done. People are more cognizant of the inability of the automakers to be honest and get proactive before people die.

PF_Flyer

OK... time to stop talking about each other and get back to talking about the topic. If you want to take shots at each other, please do so somewhere else like email or instant message. It's time to stop using Town Hall as your weapon of choice. No more pulling quotes from each other's posts to respond to things [non-permissible content removed] for tat.

This has been a great topic of discussion. Don't force it off the board with this nonsense.

Thank you for your cooperation and participation.

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driftracer

In all the quotes you pulled from my posts, NONE of them are legal advice, just my experience from working in the legal system - my observations.

I'll not tread on this area any longer, with respect to the hosts, but for the record, I have not and will not give legal ADVICE.

robertsmx

Jazz/Fit base engine is a 1.3-liter i-DSI (86 HP @ 5700 rpm, 88 lb.-ft @ 2800 rpm) that was developed for fuel economy and low emissions as a priority. While it won’t help make the 2300 lb. Fit a fast car, it serves the purpose reasonably well for Japanese and European markets. In fact, it may not be a bad idea to keep this as a base engine, as it could beat Civic HX in terms of fuel economy and approach that of Civic Hybrid (which, BTW, uses the same 1.3 engine).

The “faster” version comes with a 110 HP 1.5-liter engine, likely choice for US market. With price tag under $15K, this car should sell better than Civic hatchback did. Honda has marketed Civic Hatchback at extreme ends, the (almost) completely stripped Civic CX and now the fully loaded Civic Si. I don’t remember seeing “in-between” models.

Jazz/Fit should allow well equipped compact hatchback for less cost than a comparable Civic would.

nippononly

that is EXACTLY my point, and the reason the Fit is overdue in America: "With price tag under $15K, this car should sell better than Civic hatchback did."

With regard to the line of Civic hatchbacks, it is not true that there have only ever been a stripper and the SI. Even up to 2000, Honda sold a DX hatch, with air, stereo, rear wiper, and I believe power accessories if you wanted them. Before '95 they sold a full line of hatches including the VX, which was basically an HX hatch.

Now I don't think they should attempt to sell the new Civic hatch here any more - the reason for the slow sales of the SI, IMO, was that people hated the "mini-minivan looks".

robertsmx

Here is a good “Honda” lineup IMO…
12K-16K: Jazz/Fit
14K-18K: Civic Sedan/Coupe (throw in a Type-R for $20K or so).
18K-22K: FR-V/Edix (instead of Element)
18K-26K: CR-V
18K-26K: Accord Coupe/Sedan
22K-26K: SUT
24K-32K: Odyssey
26-32K: Pilot
32K-34K: S2000

boaz47

And for Japan and Europe small little hatchbacks seem to work. But history seems to be against them here. There were high hopes for the Honda hatch and it just didn't catch on. To meet safety in the US I wouldn't be surprised if 2300 pounds is a little light after they get it here. I can see a need for a few people like Nippon and some others but it "seems" as if they keep knocking at that same door and it doesn't open.

The small hatch advocates were begging for the Honda Hatch and yet it didn't take off as expected. There was even a forum on one of these boards asking if the hatch was back? I thought there was anyway. Edmunds lists 52 cars in the compact coupe/hatchback section of new cars. Of those 52 how many are hatchbacks in the traditional sense? Even if we pull slant backs into the mix there are still very few small hatches. Like them or now there has to be a reason they don't seem to sell as well as their rear deck brothers. That added to the fact that small cars have not held market share while mid sized cars and SUV. have taken the lions share of the market for years.

Like anyone else I say bring it if they can afford it. But don't expect big sales. History has a way of showing the future even if there are blips now and then. Small wagons on the other hand may be a different story.

nippononly

with the current SI hatch (besides looks) was that it was widely perceived to be overpriced. The Fit would not suffer this same problem, hopefully, but I think Honda would have to mimic Scion A LITTLE in making a lot of feature content standard.

boaz: several "premium" hatches are on their way here from Europe in the next year or so, and other hatches have done pretty well in the last couple of years (think Mini, WRX, now Mazda3), so hopefully there is a growing awareness out there that hatches are coming back. The more there are on the roads, the more people might consider buying one. You are right, I would bet, that they cannot bring the Fit here at 2300 pounds, but I would also bet they can achieve 2500, which would give it about the same power-to-weight ratio as the current Civic DX. If the fuel economy, feature content, and price are really good (or it at least goes 2 for 3 in that group!), I think the Fit will sell well. It would certainly be a welcome addition to Honda's current line-up of oversize cars.

robertsmx

The problem with Honda, it appears, is that even if they sold 2-3K units of Civic Hatchback per month, it would be seen as a “failure” relative to total sales of Civic. Another illustration would be choice of manual transmission with Accord V6. Why offer it for only 5% of buyers? Well, doing the math, that translates to 20K buyers/year, almost matching annual sales of some mid-size sedans. But, that would be considered a sales failure too.

I think expecting 40-50K annual sales would be reasonable if a regular choice of trims is offered. That wouldn’t be close to 300-400K units each of Civic or Accord that are sold, but certainly not a failure either.

I just found out that Honda isn’t offering 1.3 in Japan anymore. 1.5 is the standard engine. The curb weight ranges from 2250 lb. (base model) to 2475 lb. (AWD with all frills). And even though the car is relatively light (but on par with what would be its competition here), it is considered relatively safe (picture of 3900 lb. “Honda Legend” running into the 2300 lb. Honda Fit at a Honda facility)


The reasons I expect Jazz/Fit to sell well in USA/Canada…
Fuel Economy
Decent Performance (on par with most compacts, and potentially better than most subcompacts, 0-60 with 1.5 may be about 9.0s)
Cabin Room (while smaller than Civic on the outside, it has similar interior dimensions)
Price tag (based on a cheaper platform than Civic is)

If for nothing else, Honda needs to have an offering at the low-end, a new car for people who would otherwise consider a 2-3 year old used Corolla or Civic (or likes of).

andre1969

of that little Honda looks like it's faring much better than a similar film I saw years ago, of Ford running a Pinto into a 1971 or so Galaxie. It was downright disturbing just how far that Pinto got penetrated!

seminole_kev

"disturbing just how far that Pinto got penetrated!"

snicker....

andre1969

and not even from the REAR end!

anythngbutgm

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/recalls04/chrysler_minivan_fires.h- tml

Maybe they were parked next to CrV's, so it must be Honda's fault...

andre1969

for GM to have something catch on fire?

seminole_kev

I'm sure DATELINE is rigging up some pyrotechnics as we speak ;-)

anythngbutgm

So owners are safer from fires since they don't spend as much time with there vehicles as Honda owners

Just lightening things up a bit.

boaz47

This is a simple debate to answer. Before the Honda hatch came over many were saying the very same things that are being said about other hatches today. It came and it didn't sell. Simple but excuses start to be made. The problem is the "ifs" are so much bigger in the US than in Japan and Europe. It seems from reading the standard features of the Fit exported to some of the islands indicates that it might come here standard with a Automatic.

http://www.classicmotorstt.net/fit_specifications.shtml

  I don't know what it will sell for but I am not sure we want another tiny subcompact hatchback? This isn't a need thing it is a sales thing. Just because 20 people might like a small little fuel sipper doesn't mean a company can afford to sell such a car. The Echo is a flop because it "never' Made it to the 50k units a year projection. Fall into to 20k Units field for anything other than a niche car and that car will be history. People not only have to like small hatchbacks, they have to buy them.

gee35coupe

Wouldn't part with it for anything. But I can understand why others may not feel the same. It's kinda stubby. And definitely not cool until you lower it and put bigger tires/wheels on.

robertsmx

In addition to the 44 reports of fire made to NHTSA, 565 people have complained to GM about the problem... Found this sitting on the web.

We know about Altima fires (and recall), but I don't recall hearing about 1997-2002 Camry catching fire (35 reports).

driftracer

a non-perfect company like GM, and get a better reaction and feeling for themselves bashing a much better car company - I don't know, makes no sense to me.

PF_Flyer

Let a typo slip through in my chat promo... the Hybrid chat is from 12-1pm PT/3-4pm ET... that 12-1-6PM thing myst have been BST... Bob Standard Time... DOH!

Be sure to check out our Town Hall chat lineup for Tuesdays... First up, talk the latest in new automotive technology during the Hybrid Vehicles Chat from 12-1pmPT/3-4pm ET
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newcar31

"I guess folks get tired of bashing a non-perfect company like GM"

Or maybe it's because there are better forums to use if you want to bash GM. I'm sure you could dig up such a forum right here on Edmunds Townhall News and Views. And if GM is non-perfect, is Honda perfect? Lol.

Regardless of who is at fault, just because someone is concerned about the CR-V fires doesn't automatically mean that they are "bashing" Honda. Geez.

andre1969

looks like another nasty side affect of those plastic intake manifolds that seem to have been plaguing GM for years!

driftracer

My point was that I never heard about these fires in the GM intermediates and full size cars, and I work in the automotive legal community. 44 fires with destroyed cars, plus another 500 cars with damage, and we never heard anyone screaming this story from the rooftops.

Honda has a problem related to it that has proven, so far, to be caused by technician error, and the lynching party is down at the general store buying ropes!

I thought it odd that folks want to jump on the "Honda is dangerous" bandwagon, when there's proof of human error, but a major issue like a part on the engine failing and causing fires, with no human contact, goes nearly unnoticed (as with GM).

Sounds like a witch hunt to me.

boaz47

some may be bashing but not that many. It is simply that for so many years everyone has been singing the praises of Honda and not looking at what happens as a company get bigger and sells more cars. It isn't just the posters in here that bemoan what they see happening at Honda it is Autoweek, C&D and even CR that have complained about what has happened to cars like the Civic and De-contenting. Out of the three Hondas that have been in my driveway I had a good older SI. A good Prelude and a not so good 95 or 96 Civic LX.

The older SI was a favorite of the Car magazines and a surprise to most people. The new Civic is not either of those things. No one has to bash Honda to see this change in customer and enthusiast perception. It just happens. Toyota has gotten the reputation of becoming boring. Are they in reality? Toyota seems to think so because they have created a whole new division to deal with that problem.

Honda has the S-2000 and a leading Mini-Van. But other than that they have slipped slightly both to sales in the case of Toyota, and in Japan Nissan has passed them in sales after a brief failing, and perception in quality in the case of the Civic. Would most of us still consider a Honda when buying a new car? I think we would. But is Honda our first thought? Not like it once was.

driftracer

I thought it funny a while back when someone compared owning an Audi A6 and a Toyota Camry - the person loved his Audi and alleged that the Toyota was boring. I related that if you consider a car with pretty good looks, good performance, almost no repair costs, and starts every time you ask it to boring, then so be it.

My idea of the excitement of ownership isn't spending lots of time at the Audi dealer waiting on stuff to be fixed.

SOME sedans and sporty, some are just darned good family cars and basic transportation - if you want excitement, buy a Corvette. Or an S2000...

newcar31

"44 fires with destroyed cars, plus another 500 cars with damage, and we never heard anyone screaming this story from the rooftops."

I'm sure someone, somewhere is screaming from the rooftops about that, just not here in the "Has Honda's run - run out?" thread.

robertsmx

Honda has the S-2000 and a leading Mini-Van. But other than that they have slipped slightly both to sales in the case of Toyota, and in Japan Nissan has passed them in sales after a brief failing,

Aren’t you mixing numbers here? At the very beginning of this thread, the hoopla was about how Honda has lost sales, which was proven to be invalid claim (when 2003 numbers were thrown in). In North America and Europe, Honda has shown consistent increase in sales (I would like to see you prove it otherwise). Similar story in Asia too, except Japan where they have reduced sales over a year or two.

Nissan shouldn’t have faltered and fallen behind Honda, it was a much larger automaker with greater resources and more diversified product lineup. But it did, until Renault came to rescue and a flurry of new models were launched.

Toyota is an automotive giant. The most amusing thing about Honda and Toyota now competing head on is the story about how Honda came about in the first place. Soichiro Honda, almost bankrupt at the time, had a small tool shop and supplied some suspension pieces to Toyota in the 1940s and that helped him financially, and eventually led to foundation of Honda as a company! Who knew, 50 years later (Honda didn’t make cars until 1963), the company would be challenging Toyota.

So, when we talk about size and market share, it might be a good idea to keep things in perspective.

robertsmx

Roof top, or a hideout?