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Toyota Tundra Prices Paid and Buying Experience

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  • Vehicle Base Model ..........................:$ 26,105
    Rear Underseat Storage Box ................. 40
    Sliding Rear Window w/Privacy Glass ........ 345
    Carpet Floor Mats - 4 piece ................ 115
    Destination Charge ..........................: $ 685

    Total MSRP: $ 27,290

    Paid: $24,480-3000 Rebate
    = $21,480
    +tax (8.25%) ,tags,fees

    = $ 23,860

    Thank you all for your help. :-)
  • They have a few in my area, if the MSRP is $30,000, what should i offer for the truck? I have read in the previous posts about $9000 to $10000 off for 2007, will the dealer really go for that?

    Any advice will help

    Thanks in advance,
  • Good luck on the 07's I have not been able to find many. I found 2 of what you want at Toyota of Lewisville but they are both Long Beds. I think they have a total of 4 07's and 2 of them are the Limited versions. and they are 40 plus.
  • jfritschjfritsch Posts: 958
    Look up your 07 vehicle wholesale price used with about 1000 miles on it on kbb.com and edmunds.com. Add about 1000 or so to that price for a new vehicle and if that comes to around 10000 off msrp that is what you want.

    --jjf

    They have a few in my area, if the MSRP is $30,000, what should i offer for the truck? I have read in the previous posts about $9000 to $10000 off for 2007, will the dealer really go for that?

    Any advice will help

    Thanks in advance
    ,
  • winston03winston03 Posts: 20
    The model I am looking at is simply the Tundra base with the 5.7 liter engine. The only add ons were the tow package and chrome front bumper. I was given a quote here in Atlanta for 24,900 plus tt&L. They were willing to waive thier typical over- inflated 499 doc fee. How does this compare to the prices you all have received?

    Briefly considered a Titan because of the 5k back. Not hearing great things about reliabilty however.

    Any feedback is appreciated
  • jfritschjfritsch Posts: 958
    You are probably right to pass on the titan. A dodge ram 1500 with the lifetime powertrain warranty sells for 12000+ off msrp usually, and would be a better deal and truck..

    Look up the used wholesale value of an 07 tundra like yours with 12000 miles on it on kbb.com and edmunds or nada.com. Add about 20 percent to the wholesale for the price you want on a new one. With the economy and sales slowing and gas at $3.00/gal there is no reason to pay more. Check into the Chevy silverado too.

    The model I am looking at is simply the Tundra base with the 5.7 liter engine. The only add ons were the tow package and chrome front bumper. I was given a quote here in Atlanta for 24,900 plus tt&L. They were willing to waive thier typical over- inflated 499 doc fee. How does this compare to the prices you all have received?

    Briefly considered a Titan because of the 5k back. Not hearing great things about reliabilty however.

    Any feedback is appreciated
  • toddhmtoddhm Posts: 35
    For a 2008 4x4 SR5 Double Cab 5.7 with a total MSRP of $33,846? I have calcualted invoice to be $29,565. I want to take advantage of the 0% financing so the 3k rebate would not apply. Please advise.
  • rlaryrlary Posts: 18
    I would except no less than 3500.00 off of the MSRP
  • bamaptbamapt Posts: 25
    I'm looking at a Tundra grade crewmax, 4x2, still debating on the 4.7 vs 5.7. Any opinions on which to go with and what I should have to give for it? I will probably be going for the low APR vs the rebate.
  • Any input regarding the following will be greatly appreciated:

    2008 Toyota Tundra Crewmax 5.7L V8
    Base model 33985
    Factory installed accessories FE EJ HM OF SP SR
    JBL AM/FM 6 disc changer, 12 speakers $1040
    Heated mirror, TRD Offroad Pkg $2155
    Power tilt moonroof $810
    Carpet floor mats $115
    Total accessories $4120
    Dest. $685
    Total $38790

    Dealer additions: Sirius Sat Radio 9 mo subscription
    Factory wheel locks
    bedliner
    Chapman alarm
    running board
    black painted rims, 20" tires
    coil Camburg adjustable coil covers
    Grill billet grill set
    Total options $6874
    Total MSRP $45664

    Dealership tried to add on alarm and bedliner to total MSRP and said they were inadvertantly calculated into the quote by mistake! Dealer quote is $42210 which is not much of a discount. Any input is greatly appreciated.
  • I'm assuming his quote didn't include the factory rebate. Depending on where you live, it could be anywhere from $2500-$3500. The discount of around $3500 you were quoted is near invoice, so say there was a $3500 rebate, you'd be net $7000 off. You can find local rebates by utilizing edmunds or you can go to buyatoyota.com for current specials.
  • jfritschjfritsch Posts: 958
    With these gas prices and the economy the way it is I would shoot for 9000-11000 off the vehicle, especially with the hi priced dealer add-ons.

    Good luck
    --jjf
  • kiwi08kiwi08 Posts: 1
    I got a quote of 30795 for this car with the following options on it then got another quote for $200 more saying they forgot to include the tint. I was told invoice was 34300. I'm in TX, should I go for it? I'm to meet them tomorrow so I really need some input asap. Thank you.

    50 State Emissions
    Fog Lamps
    Daytime Running Lights
    Tow Mirrors: Power Adjustable, Manually
    Extendable, Heated, with Turn Signals
    Fender Flares
    Leather Interior Upgrade
    Incl: Leather Faced Seat
    Liquicell Comfort Technology
    Power Lumbar Support - Passenger
    Back-up Camera w/Monitor
    Ball Mount
    Extra Mile 20 Inch Alloy Wheel Upgrade
    with Tire Upgrade (Set of 4)
    Wheel Locks
    No Charge Road Hazard Tire Warranty
    (3 Yrs/36,000 Miles)
    VIP Sales Follow-Up
    Vehicle Shield Package
    Lusterizing Sealant
    Sound Shield
    Sealant Cleaner
    Rental Car Assistance
    Vehicle Fueling (6 Gal.)
    HALF TINT
  • $8k off, maybe... $9k off, a stretch, $11k off, well, they don't have that much in the vehicle. I guess anything is possible these days. There's only about $3k-$4k in front-end gross profit on these trucks. Even if a dealer were to subtract out his holdback, wfr, and ad fee, you'd be roughly $5500 off list, then assuming a $3k-$4k rebate... well, you can do the math.

    Now, if you want a Dodge, $11k off is very doable, especially with rebates in the $5k-$6k range.
  • Thanks for the help! The quote above didn't include the rebate which is 3K in our area. Dealer said 42K is the lowest they could go on that vehicle. I walked away from the deal - didn't like the sales tactics of trying to add two of the options on the MSRP twice. A different dealership has a loaded limited Tundra Crewmax 4WD with nav, leather, RSE without those black rims for the same price.
  • After getting all the data on costs/options and color, I proceeded to Toyota.com to apply for -0-% financing for 48 months. Based on our FICO scores of 750+, we were pre-approved @ -0-% @ 48 mos for $44K. I then proceeded on the internet and typed in the dialog box that I was willing to pay only "dealer invoice" and don't waste my time!. I received 4 offers via e-mail and phone for 08'Tundra CrewMax 4 X4 @ "dealer's invoice plus DMV fees". When I finally received a written confirmation as to the CrewMax options/color/and dealer's invoice pricing, I made an appointment to finally the car. At the time of closing or signing, I asked to review the detail cost analysis, and to my surprise, the Toyota dealership added $730 in admin fees, $500 in marketing, $800 in bank flooring interest fees, and $10 for gas: in addition to the dealer's cost. I questioned the 4 line items, and the reply was that it was mandatory fees! Bull! I walked out and fired off an email to the dealership/ BBB/ action line/ Consumer Affairs/ Federal Trade Commission. The added fees totalled $2000 on top of dealer's invoice...more profit and gougeing to the "qualify customer." In my complaint and letter, I informed him that my sister works for Toyota USA and the added fees are hidden fees (outlawed by the FTC). There are alot of shady dealerships out there. I went to the other dealership and proceeded to get him to put in writing or e-mail that there will be no surprises at closing such as hidden fees. So be careful, dealerships are adding mark ups (fees) to the so called "dealer invoice." You would think with the economy in a near recession, and there are 500+ Tundras sitting on the dealer's lots, they would treat a "qualify buyer" this shabby way. Don't shop at Salinas Toyota: drove 150 miles and wasted 3 hours of my time.
  • There are a ton of Tundras sitting on the dealer's lots: 2007's and 2008's. You can get dealer's invoice pricing by just demanding it, but just make sure at closing, the dealership doesn't add the hidden fees such as $730 for admin, $500 for advertising, $800 for interest/flooring charges for the Tundra sitting on the lot. You are willing buyer; their job is to move inventory! Just don't be eager in the sale and show your desire and emotions. This is a $40k business decision! This is not a "need"; this is a want. If he can't sell it to you at invoice, someone will!
  • Dealerships have found a new way to gouged the consumer. Instead, of adding markups on the car sticker price, they are advertising "dealer invoice" and marking the fees at closing when you are about to sign papers. It is the "nickle and dime" hidden line item pricing at closing: doc fees, admin fees, marketing fees, bank flooring interest, and gas. Before you sign, look at all the line items; it wil turn out to be $2000 on top of dealer invoice. The dealerships get a 3% holdback from the factory or $1200 on a $40k Tundra CrewMax. I have purchased 5 cars at so called "dealer invoice" on the internet, but never encountered this scenario until over the weekend. Stay away from Toyota Salinas!
  • The advertised "rebates" by Toyota are computed after the dealership computes the total sales price/tax/DMV fees. The so called $3000 rebates off the 08 Tundras or $5000 off the 07 Tundras are reflected after the final sale. What a joke! More profit to the Toyota dealerships. This also applies to "trade ins". The salesman are trained to talk about retail and fabulous "rebates"; just make sure we're looking at dealer's invoice; the dealerships get paid on unit sales, plus the dealerships get a 3% holdback as profit on the car. There are mo ethics in the car retail industry!
  • Let me see if I can break this down for you and simplify/clarify any confusion. It appears that the fees they showed you ARE legit and part of the factory invoice. The marketing fee 'aka' TDA is a regional adverstising fee that the dealership pays the distributor and they are NOT refunded or "kick-backed" any of that money. It can vary by manufacturer, but I can tell you that it is NOT a profit item for Toyota.

    If you're in the southeast region, you have to deal with SET (Southeast Toyota) and they do charge an additional Admin fee of ~ $750 on every vehicle as they deal with a different distibutor. I'm sorry if you live in the SET region as they truly do beat to a different drum down there.

    The holdback is 2% of the base msrp and Toyota charges a flooring fee called "wholesale financial reserve" which is 1% of the base msrp. These can be negotiated, but they are not "hidden fees" as you mentioned. Salesman do NOT get paid on these charges as they are not comissioned items. Some Toyota vehicles charge $10 for fuel, who's gonna' bark over that $10, especially when you get a full tank which would cost you about $90 if you did it yourself at current fuel prices. Again, these fees are all included on the invoices you put together online, they are just not itemized as detailed as a true factory invoice.

    Now, because the dealer probably showed you his "vehicle inquiry report", which is the computerized version of the "hard copy" invoice, it itemizes all the "fees." If you go back and build your vehicle via edmunds or kbb... the holdback, wfr, and gasoline ARE included in the invoice price. Only item that will be missing is the TDA 'cause it varies by region. And, if you are in SET, you have to add the ~$750 admin fee to your build order.

    So, when you offered invoice, it appears he gave you invoice (which is what you asked). I'm certainly not taking the dealer's side as I was not there, but the fees you described ARE part of the invoice. Remember, invoice is not cost, but rather an arbitrary number that consumers are able to utilize to see what the market is willing to pay in relation. No salesman, of even a manager for that matter know the true dead cost of a vehicle - the owner and/or the GM (maybe) are the only ones at the dealership that would know that number.

    In some cases invoice is a deal, in some case, it's not gonna' happen, but either way, when it's itemized on the FACTORY INVOICE, it's a charge from Toyota or SET, and all though you may think it's BS, they are NOT trying to pull a fast one on you.

    The fee you should be worried about is the documentation and processing fee. Here in SoCal, dealers are capped at $55, which is very reasoanble, but in some states, I've seen it as high as $700! Now that's a bogus fee.

    In this day and age, you have to negotiate with kindness (but be firm), otherwise they WILL let you walk and you'll never get a vehicle as they know you'll burn 'em on the survey (CSI), which will take even more money out of their pocket.

    Please don't take the tone of this e-mail personally, it was simply to edcuate you (and others) how the car biz works (at least from Toyota's standpoint) and how to get a deal w/o thinking the dealer is trying to screw you. Does it happen? You bet - all the time, but I'm simply pointing out that you asked for something (invoice), and he gave it too you. Because you did not understand how the dealership worked, going to the BBB etc. was way over the top. If you wanted to go $1000 back of invoice on a Tundra, he probably would have done it (based on current demand), but $1000 below invoice is $1000 below the numbers he has inked on his factory invoice, not what you "think" his cost is.

    'Nuff said... good luck with the next dealer.
  • Here's a computerized version of a Toyota factory invoice. At the bottom, you will see all the itemized "fees." If you live in the SET region, an admin fee of ~$750 would be added or in lieu of the TDA. But, for educational purposes, if you were to build this vehicle to it's exact specs via this site, the invoice should match everything except the TDA. Reitterating that the dest., holdback, wfr, and gasoline are already built into the invoice.

    18186 VEHICLE INQUIRY REPORT DATE: 04/07/08
    DCV920 TIME: 09:51
    Model Number: 8352A SERIAL # :8X053419 Check Code: 0

    Model Description: DCAB LTD 5.7L V8 Category ..........: G
    Year ............: 2008 Current Dealer ....: 110-04136
    Interior Color ..: LD13 LD13 Wholesale Dealer ..: 04136
    Exterior Color ..: 0040 WHITE Previous Dealer ...: 00110
    Body ............: DBL CAB 5.7L LTD Invoice Date ......: 02/08/08
    Number of Cyl ...: 8 Ship Date .........: 02/07/08
    Allocation Number: 012 Retail Date .......:
    Engine Number ...: 5206225 Date of First Use .:
    Vessel Number ...: 705 TRAC ..............: NO
    Vessel Name .....: TMMTX SANANTONIO Damage ............: NO DAMAGE
    PDI ...............: YES
    Fleet .............: NON-FLEET
    Port PDS Complete .: NO

    VIN .............: 5TFBV58148XXXXXXX
    Ignition Key.....: N/A

    Factory Installed Accessories: FE AL
    Port Installed Accessories ..: C4 7J

    Retail Dealer
    Vehicle Base Model ....................: $ 38770.00 $ 33923.00
    Total Accessories .....................: $ 1048.00 $ 813.50

    MECHANICAL & PERFORMANCE
    GVWR = 7100 lbs. Payload = 1560 lbs.
    Tow Capacity = 10,300 lbs.
    381HP/401 Lb-Ft 5.7L DOHC 32V iForce V8
    w/Dual Independent VVT-I and ACIS
    6-Spd Auto w/Seq Shift and Tow/Haul Mode
    Engine Immobilizer, Cruise Control
    4WDemand 4x4 System w/Electronically
    Controlled 2 Speed Transfer Case
    Tow Equip: Hitch Receiver, Supp A/T
    Cooler, 4.30 Rear Diff w/10.5" Ring Gear
    150A Alternator, A/T Temp Gauge, 7 Pin
    Conn, Trailer Brake Controller Prewire
    Automatic Limited Slip Diff (Auto LSD)
    Front and Rear Sonar
    TripleTech Frame: Fully-boxed Fr Section
    Reinforced C Under Cab, Open C Under Bed
    Coil Over Shock Double A-Arm Front Susp
    Multi-Leaf Trapezoidal Rear Suspension
    18" Alloy Wheels w/P275/65R18 Tires
    EXTERIOR
    6.5'' Double-Walled Bed w/Tailgate Assist
    Color-keyed Fr/Chrome Rr Bumper
    Chrome Grille/Door Handles/Outer Mirror
    Sliding Rr Window w/Privacy Glass
    Fog Lamps
    INTERIOR
    Leather Trim Pwr Heated Front Buckets
    Automatic Dual Zone Climate Control
    JBL AM/FM 6-CD, 10 Spkrs, Aux Audio Jack
    w/Steering Wheel Audio Cntrls, Bluetooth
    Power Windows/Door Locks/Mirrors
    Remote Keyless Entry & Anti-Theft System
    SAFETY
    STAR Safety: Pwr Assist 4 Wheel Disc ABS
    w/Electronic Brakeforce Distrib (EBD),
    Brake Assist, Vehicle Stability Control
    with Active Traction Control (VSC+ATRAC)
    Dr & Fr Pass Advanced Airbags/Seat Side
    Airbags/3 pt Seatbelts w/Pretensioners
    & Force Limiters
    Roll-Sensing Curtain Airbags (RSCA)
    Tire Pressure Monitoring System
    Retail Dealer Total
    Vehicle Base Model ..........................:$ 38770.00 $ 33923.00 $ 38770.00
    50 State Emissions .........................
    20" Alloy Wheels w/P275/55R20 Tires ........ 920.00 736.00
    Carpet Floor Mats - 4 piece ................ 115.00 69.00
    Front License Plate Bracket ................ 13.00 8.50
    --------- --------- ---------
    Total Accessories ...........................: $ 1048.00 $ 813.50 $ 1048.00
    Destination Charge ..........................: $ 685.00 $ 685.00
    TDA .........................................: $ 400.00
    Gasoline ....................................: $ 10.00
    Dealer Holdback .............................: $ 775.00
    Whsl. Financial Reserve .....................: $ 387.00

    --------- ---------
    Total .......................................Invoice: $ 36993.50 / MSRP: $ 40503.00
  • In regards to the rebates, dealers do NOT get paid on these! They are not profit items. It is subsidized money that comes straight from the manufacturer and is used just like a cash down payment. Every customer gets them, unless they opt for and qualify for a low apr. They cannot "hide them" from you and cash them in. If you do not opt for low financing, you WILL get the rebate - no questions asked. If you want to blame somebody, blame your state DMV, as they are the ones who determine what and how much you're taxed - not the dealer.

    In most cases... you get one or the other - the rebate or low apr, which in this case, you said you were opting for the low apr, so the rebate wouldn't have even applied too you.
  • Thank you. Your information is very useful and informative. I stand corrected. The information you provide are not disclosed to the average consumer. The issue I have is the advertisment of low or -0-% financing, but at the back in or at the time of closing, all these above fees are automatically listed and not fully explained upfront. The auto retail game is to keep the customer in the dark and "closed the sale." It is very interesting that when a customer declines the extended warranties or rust proofing additional charges, it is like a slap in the face to the saleman, and next thing on the final signing docs, more additional charges are added. That's my experience with closing. Thanks for your input.
  • Assuming that you qualify, Toyota's -0-% financing is more a marketing ploy than reality. What I find in my research is that "there are no free lunches", and that's goes for -0-% or low interest rates on auto financing. The additional fees tacked on at closing can be construed as "disguised prepaid interest" in the form of mandatory fees, cicumventing the "truth and lending" requirements set forth by FTC. "Substance over form" in dealing with "structured finance transactions." Assuming you are correct in your assessment of mandatory fees, it is not properly disclosed to the average "joe".
  • I still don't understand what "fees" you are alluding too? If you're still referring to the TDA (ad fee), holdback and wfr... remember, they ARE part of the invoice and they are clearly mentioned on sites like Edmunds and KBB. Besides, these are billed items from the manufacturer and not some measly fee the dealer tacked on to screw you. In a competitive market, you can offer whatever you want, but the dealer has the right to say yes or no. Supply and demand will dictate how much he lets his product go for. Aged units, colors, trim levels, regional variances, etc... they all plays into the price.

    You stated that you bought a few other vehicles at invoice, and since most manufacturers have holdback and a regional ad fee, you paid these and just didn't know it. Most hard copy invoices from the manufacturer don't itemize the fees - they're simply built into the invoice, just like you see here on Edmunds. The fees you saw on the vehicle inquiry report were itemized, but they tally up to the total invoice price the dealer was billed. Toyota can charge whatever they want for their products, and they did just that, and it's not a crime for a franchised dealer to pass on their costs to you - the consumer. This is where properly preparing yourself to make a purchase comes into play.

    As for financing, when Toyota offers 0% or whatever special rate, in most cases, if a consumer is Tier 1 and above ( 700 FICO or higher) and they opt for that financing, they get it - nothing shady about it. What research have you done that proves otherwise? A dealer can't mark-up special financing, in fact, they may have to pay into it to help subsidize the low rate since it's usually well below current rates. In most cases, when a rebate is available in lieu of the special financing, and a customer opts for the financing, the money that would be used towards the rebate is typically shifted to subsidize the low rate. The only thing that might make a customer balk is a possible pre-payment penalty. TFS has no pre-payment penalty after 3 months, but what's shady about that? That's up to the lender, not the dealer.

    In regards to the products/services a finance manager tries to sell you, it's not that hard to just say "no thank you" and move on. You can't take it personally if they mope (and who really cares anyway), and if they make you feel guilty, in essence, they've done their job.
  • Let me back up to the beginning ....for any manufactured product, if its computers, software, manufacturered cars or any finished goods (wigets), manufactured in the U.S. or anywhere in the world for that matter, has the same accounting standards (GAAP) or methodogy to compute the total cost of a manufactured product or wiget . "Total Cost "of a manufactured product consists of 3 components : direct costs, indirect costs, and overhead= Total Costs of that manufactured product. This product or finished good is then sold to the retailer; in this case, the auto dealership. The auto dealership purchases the car from the manufactured as a complete unit. The actual price paid or total cost of A "car" is less than the posted Edmunds or Kelly Blue Book "dealer invoice sheet". The reality is that the so called "dealer invoice" is a reference standard for the consumer. This "standard cost sheet " is just a "reference sheet"; the so called "dealer invoice cost" that everyone sees listed on the internet is NOT the true and accurate cost reported to the EU (European Union for value added tax) nor the SEC nor posted or used in Generally Accepted Audited Financial Statements.For the accounting of retail dealerships in the U.S., GAAP or general accepted accounting procedures are used to compute profit or loss for each dealership. The accounting for retail dealerships are no different than the accounting for Walmart or Target or any retailer.

    In the world of accounting for auto dealerships, costs paid and incurred by the retailer for such costs as marketing (advertising), bank financing (interest expense), salaries, rent, utilities are considered selling and overhead costs. In the real world, these costs paid or incurred by the retailer are not passed on to the consumer. The retailer, Walmart, does not charge the consumer for an additional mark up or "mandatory fees" in addition to the sale price of an item listed in sales ad, except for local sales tax (a true mandatory fee) or Oregon doesn't charge sales tax.
    The MSRP is a suggested retail price. It is not mandated by the manufactured; it is only suggested. The so called "dealer's invoice" is just a reference to a standard cost of a finished item; it is definitely not used in financial or tax accounting that is reported to the SEC or IRS or EU.
    In purchasing a car, the consumer negoitates A "price" that his willing to pay. He doesn't want to be nickled and dime; average "Joe" just wants "one -final -negotiated -price. " In the world of negoitations, one will often hear, "tax, license, complete" for 1-price. NOT,"or by the way I have to add marketing, interest, delivery to your final negotiated price.
    According to all the auto brochures, "dealerships MAY include an advertising fee on top of the MSRP." Who pays MSRP? the dealer MAY ,not must, not will ...
    Getting back to your comments. When a consumer pays in addition to his final negoiated price; he expects Tax, License and DMV fees. Not what the dealership demands that he pays (mandatory fees) in addition to. In the regulated world of the Federal Trade Commission for consumers, the fair market value of a product is determine between a willing buyer and a willing seller, NOT in addition to! That was my point. In my previous comments, I should have preface that I was coming from the world of accounting for tax and SEC.
    Your points are well addressed in your comments. I am coming from a consumer and tax accountant. Have a great day!
  • Going back to your original arguement. When you asked for invoice, what price did you expect? Did you check Edmunds or KBB? If you did, you would have seen that their selling price only differed by the amount of the ad fee. Plus, the fact that you drove quite a ways to see this vehicle, they really had no incentive to give you the best price. A local dealer at least has a ray of hope of you coming back for service and parts.

    Once again... Invoice is not cost, and I never said it was. For example, let's say you agree on a price $500 over dealer invoice for a Tundra, hopefully by now you realize that you didn't pay $500 profit. If you get a deal at $500 over (invoice less holdback and wfr), you still didn't pay a $500 profit. A dealer's profit margin involves a lot more than just what is paid for the vehicle and quite frankly, it's really not the customer's business. The sales staff isn't even aware of what the true dead cost is, nor should they. The customer should not be in the business of concerning him/herself with the financials of the dealership.

    Look, if the dealer started writing in a bunch of extraneous fees on your purchase order, then you'd have every right to question them, but on a true invoice from a manufacturer, those fees were paid, whether the customer wants to believe it or not. They are not "nickel & dime" fees. Holdback was paid upfront by the dealer (as part of the invoice), and yes, this money is refunded back to them, typically quarterly, as is the wfr, but they typically go right back into overhead expenses. The TDA was paid to the regional distributor and is never refunded (at least for Toyota).

    There is no doubt that the automotive industry has created a life-long negative stigma. It sucks, but it's the nature of the business. As a consumer myself, I may have a leg up as I worked in the business and currently still consult. However, as an independent consultant, I have zero allegiance to any dealer or the slimy tricks they may pull. This is why I post on this board - to help people, not to flash around my knowledge.

    Like I said, a consumer can offer anything he wants, but you let your emotions get the best of you because you simply had no clue that those fees were part of the invoice. And in regards to the advertisnig fee, if you think that products you buy at a retail store don't have that cost built in to their product, you're nuts. Besides, buying a truck is not the same as buying a TV from Walmart - nobody at Walmart has the authority to field a price offer from a customer. If a TV is on sale for $799, you don't walk in and say you'll give them $500 for it. You'd get laughed out of the store. Needless to say, shopping for a car is not to be compared with shopping for "other" retail items. It's a completely different way of buying.

    You are correct about the invoice being an arbitrary number though. It simply allows you to compare dealer A to dealer B. If you know what people are paying for this vehicle and you got a dealer to give it too you, I still don't see what all the fuss is about. If you don't want to pay the the holdback, financial reserve, and the ad fee - fine, offer them $2k below invoice. If they say yes, you've got an exceptional deal, if they say no - well, then you'll know that they're not as desperate as everything thinks.

    Despite what people are saying about high fuel prices, demand still varies in the truck market. For example, a Crew Maxx 5.7L is not nearly as distressed as a 4.7L Double Cab. Therefore, $1000 below invoice on the DC could probably be had all day long, whereas with a CM, they may not take anything less than invoice.

    BTW... I notice you live in Salinas, I have a fantastic Fleet contact at one of the Toyota dealerships in the bay area. If you give me the specs and color of what type of truck you're looking for, I'd be happy to set you up, or get you a quote at the very least. And no, I do not work for him or recieve a referral fee. He's just an honest, professional straight shooter who will tell you what he can and can't do.

    Depsite what you might think, I want you to get a truck, and I want you to get a great deal. But understand, no matter what Toyota dealership you go to, when you ask to see the invoice (on their computer), they will all have the same items the first dealer showed you. Why? Because they are costs billed from the manufacturer - simple as that. You just happened to see them in itemized form. Had they of shown you a hard copy, the price would have been exactly the same and you would have had no idea that they were included.
  • From a consumer, I expected to receive a competitve and fair price. For the average consumer, the Edmunds or KBB "dealer's invoice" is my reference for a fair and determinable (fair market price), not MSRP or what a dealership or retailer what's to sell. Dealership bread and butter profits comes from service, not from sales. The gross margins does not support the business. Agreed, the fixed and variable costs are built into the product or car or computer or any manufactured item. The dealership is a retailer; he doesn't manufacture any wigets; his job is to move the inventory at A "price". The retailer will incurred and pay selling costs, ie floor interest, advertising, salaries. The dealership does not "directly" pass these selling costs to the consumer; he adds a mark up to the (paid price of the manufactured item) to arrive at his "selling price." He may or will at times sell the car or truck above, at, or below his actual cost to "move the inventory." All retailers repond to the marketplace: demand vs supply. My initial point as a consumer is that at the "time of closing or signing", I don't want to be "nickled and dimed" by A "salesman" for so called "mandatory fees". The only mandatory fees are state and local taxes, NOT, some "marketing ploy" or "sales practice" to get the consumer to pay added costs (in this case-profit). Granted, there are additional fees or costs that the manufactured invoices to the retailer or the dealer incurs additional "bank flooring costs" or "inventory costs." From an accounting and tax perspective for "financial statements purposes" to the owners, shareholders, SEC or the IRS or Franchise Tax Board, they are accounted for as part of Cost of Sales and Selling Costs.
    The average consumer does not have direct access to the Dealership's books and records. The financial or cost accountants, internal and outside auditors have this knowledge. After all , we're paid to follow the cash.
    From my perspective as a consumer and accountant, I refuse to participate in the "marketing or sales tactics" used in the "closing game of the sale." The auto retail industry and the timeshare industry use the same selling and marketing tactics to "close the sale." They're job is to SELL; they have to eat. I, as a consumer, chose to participate or walk to another dealer. In my case, I am going to purchase the truck from Toyota USA. Knowledge is key to the consumer, especially when you examine numbers for a living and report these numbers to the SEC, IRS, State Franchise Tax Board, and the shareholder or dealership owners.
    My main point in all our discussions is the "marketing and sales game" used at the time of closing A "sale". The auto retail industry deserves the stigma as being "unethical" in using these marketing/closing tactics:
    -0-% or low interest financing, free this or free that-TO get you into the door. Timeshare selling 101.
    Your observations as a consultant to the industry are well taken. I am just coming from debits and credits and legal.
  • Words in italics are quotes from justbrowse. My answers are in bold.

    From a consumer, I expected to receive a competitve and fair price. For the average consumer, the Edmunds or KBB "dealer's invoice" is my reference for a fair and determinable (fair market price), not MSRP or what a dealership or retailer what's to sell.

    MSRP has not been mentioned, so that's never been the issue - but I have to assume that you researched invoice pricing on Edmund's, so how far off was their quoted price from what you saw online? Again, my guess is that it was off the few hundred bucks for the TDA? Edmund's also has a section that discuss' regional advertising fees.

    Dealership bread and butter profits comes from service, not from sales. The gross margins does not support the business. Agreed, the fixed and variable costs are built into the product or car or computer or any manufactured item. The dealership is a retailer; he doesn't manufacture any wigets; his job is to move the inventory at A "price". The retailer will incurred and pay selling costs, ie floor interest, advertising, salaries. The dealership does not "directly" pass these selling costs to the consumer; he adds a mark up to the (paid price of the manufactured item) to arrive at his "selling price." He may or will at times sell the car or truck above, at, or below his actual cost to "move the inventory." All retailers repond to the marketplace: demand vs supply.

    Fair enough, but this is simply repeating what we both already know.

    My initial point as a consumer is that at the "time of closing or signing", I don't want to be "nickled and dimed" by A "salesman" for so called "mandatory fees". The only mandatory fees are state and local taxes, NOT, some "marketing ploy" or "sales practice" to get the consumer to pay added costs (in this case-profit). Granted, there are additional fees or costs that the manufactured invoices to the retailer or the dealer incurs additional "bank flooring costs" or "inventory costs."

    Okay, fair enough, but as you stated, and I can only assume that you utilized this site for pricing comparison - so if you are to base a "competitive" price against what you saw here, and were not aware of the fees, you still thought you were getting a deal, so where's the problem? It's pointless to keep repeating what's already been covered. And once again, Edmund's and virtually all other third party pricing sites include the holdback and wfr (for Toyota) in their INVOICE pricing. So I guess technically they should be reported for "hiding" these fees too, right? C'mon! You knew what Edmund's invoice price was, so the question you still didn't answer was... how could you have been shocked when the invoice they showed you was almost identical to what your researched proved? This is the question I've been trying to get out of you, but 3 posts later and have nothing more than fancy verbage? Okay, I get that the fees were itemized, but they were/are already included in the Edmund's pricing that you researched online and claimed that you use to determine a "fair market value"? Now, if the dealer's invoice was "packed" a few grand over and above what you saw online, then by all means I'd have some questions!

    The average consumer does not have direct access to the Dealership's books and records. The financial or cost accountants, internal and outside auditors have this knowledge.

    Nor should they or to any business for that matter.

    In my case, I am going to purchase the truck from Toyota USA.

    How are you purchasing directly from Toyota w/o going through a franchised dealer? Only guess is that you're getting employee pricing from your family member? Does she work for a regional distributor? My guess is that you'll pay factory invoice minus the holdback and wfr (typical employee pricing). That would be an excellent deal.

    Knowledge is key to the consumer.

    Now this we can agree on!
  • Your comments and observations are very well written and well received; after all, you are the consultant in this field. In our discussions, we have agreed on a lot points; however, as a consumer, I have issues with the sales and marketing practices of the auto industry. From my consumer retail perspective, selling and marketing of a high-end manurfactured product is no different than selling and marketing timeshares. Both industries are similar: high dollar item, available financing, creative marketing, and the same sales tactics and methodogy used in high pressured sales. Retail is retail. As an accounting professional, the accounting of income and expenses to the auto retailer is not different than any other retailer i.e. Costco, Target, Pep-Boys, and Walmart. The only stand out difference is the "sales practices and sales tactics used." Granted, they all have the same fixed and variable costs, and they all post "MSRP" on their products and have sales. However, in your auto industry, the creative marketing is to pass on these so called "fees" or expenses to the consumer on top of the agreed upon sales price at closing or signing. As a consumer, I can choose to pay or accept or negotiate with the dealer or walk. In my case, I am challenging and questioning these so called mandatory expenses. I agree, they are listed, but it doesn't mean I have to pay at closing or signing! The consumer question is: Why do I have to pay for your incurred marketing and floor interest expense? But, the answer is, That's the way we operate and do things around here for the past 50 years. As a consumer, I have a choice-pay it or don't pay it. In my case, I am challenging and questioning it. If I am spending $40,000 on A car or any high-end product or timeshare, I'm going to do my homework and due dilligence before I set foot on your showroom floor.

    I applaud Edmunds and KBB in helping the consumer in his "due dilligence." One day, your auto retail industry will have to change to the "Ebay"/ "Amazon" way of marketing cars...click, click and pick up your car at a designated pick up point...get rid of the high pressured sales and marketing tactics. If Costco can sell high end manufactured products and be very successful at it; they can surely sell cars...one day...

    With the economy slowing down and consumer sentiment at a 1982 low, and dealerships flushed with unsold inventory, more power to the Consumer!
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