Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Hybrids in the News

1132133135137138162

Comments

  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    In the Hybrid Camry thread the same question came up today.

    One of the big benefits of the HSD is that you have two vehicles at your disposal.

    1) Using the TCH like a normal V6 with 192 hp, driven in the most disadvantageous way, will get about 31 mpg like the testers did. But this is compared to other V6's where the combined mpg are in the 23-25 mpg range. The TCH will improve FE here by at least 25%

    2) Using the best features of the HSD will give you a very very efficient 4c Camry. The Hwy FE will be ~35 mpg but a careful driver in the city will be able to get way over 40 mpg.

    Which vehicle do you want to drive today?
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,993
    Which vehicle do you want to drive today?

    I think it depends more on "What's in your Wallet".
  • mirth: I doubt that most people drive like the auto journalist. I don't even consider myself "lead footed," and when I am on the freeway I am passing 99.9% of the cars (no exaggeration). I live in the left lane, only. Wayyyyy more people live in the middle and right lanes.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Breweries have announced that there is a large amount of ethanol that is available as a by-product of making beer. When you consider how much beer is consumed in this country, looks like we've found a substantial source of energy!

    Definitely this will be a strength for German car makers.

    I mean what can be more German than having a bratwurst and a beer with its ethanol by-products in a beer garden. ;)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,717
    Another way to look at this 31 mpg "lead-footed" result: if I drive my 2.0L, 138 hp automatic compact in a lead-footed way, in the dead of winter, I might be lucky to break 20 mpg overall. If I drive it very carefully, I might break 30 overall, with a significant amount of highway driving at less than 65 mph. This Camry Hybrid, a mid-sized car with nearly 200 hp, got about 31 mpg with a lead-footed driver. I think that is pretty darn good.
  • yes, it's rare that if you drive the same vehicle differently you could get such varying MPG

    If I baby my car, maybe I get 22

    If I drive it hard (nomral), I get 20
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,717
    Well, that may be normal for you and the car you drive, but I've proven many times on my cars that I can easily get 25-40% better fuel economy simply by driving with a focus on fuel efficiency. No big "tricks" like drafting or super-inflated tires, just basic stuff like not speeding, being easy on the gas, and anticipating stops.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    So what will the Prius 3 be like in about 2 more years?

    Prius 3

    Asked by Green Car Congress if the hybrid Camry’s introduction now paves the way for a redesign of the Prius with even more radical technologies, Hermance replied, “Absolutely.”

    A quick look at hybrid vehicle technologies under consideration throughout the industry gives an indication of the potential improvements that Toyota might consider. Assuming that safety concerns can be satisfied, a lithium-ion battery pack is an obvious consideration; however, as some Green Car Congress readers have noted in the past, it’s possible that the battery pack could be combined with a smaller set of ultracapacitors to handle short bursts of acceleration.

    Secondary battery pack charging systems, using either photovoltaic solar panels on the roof of the vehicle or a thermoelectric device to recapture some of the internal combustion engine’s waste heat, are also increasingly popular on the motor show circuit. Toyota themselves recently displayed a version of its Japan-only Estima hybrid minivan with a thermoelectric device built in to the vehicle’s engine exhaust system.

    Given that flex-fuel vehicles seem to be gaining traction almost daily, the Prius is an obvious candidate for such treatment, as long as it does not interfere with the vehicle’s coveted California AT-PZEV certification. Finally, the Prius remains a heavier vehicle than most comparably-sized non-hybrid vehicles—and that’s a data point that Toyota is almost certainly anxious to reduce, as long as it can do so without significantly affecting the cost of the vehicle.

    The Prius is scheduled for replacement in 2008, with the next generation to be sold as a 2009 model-year vehicle.
  • toyolla2toyolla2 Posts: 158
    Hi KD,
    I am beginning to think that Bamacar was right in that you do seem to put the positive spin of a Toyota salesman on this lamentable situation of overpowered cars coming to market. In this era we should expect car companies to present us with viable choices for quelling our "addiction" to Middle East oil and not be encouraged to embrace Power Hybrids as you do.

    I reported in msg #4335 about Driving Television's test, dubbed as the Hybrid Commuter Challenge, where two of the seven vehicles were a standard V6 Accord and a 4000lb Ford Escape. The winner was the car with the smallest engine ( WOW ! that's a surprise) the ubiquitous Prius. They are getting a note from me soon about ethics in TV journalism and their lack thereof.
    But I was hoping someone would pick up on that error too. At the time your comment ran as follows.
    "The vehicles followed one behind the other throughout,
    exchanging drivers every hour or two. It was a good test of all at the same time.
    Regardless of what the EPA numbers are, and you know the weak points of their testing, this drive and video is indicative of which performs best in varied ( combined driving )."
    A "good test" should have included cars with lower capacity than 1.5L don't you think ? The HCH for example.

    Your latest comment about the dual purpose flexibility of the HSD seems off the mark to me as well.
    Camry buyers predilection for the 2.4L would tell me that this demographic would care less for 192HP. And as for Hernances comment that this Camry is not going up against the HAH. Duh! The HAH seems to be barely alive itself at this juncture. IMO in not dropping the Prius powertrain into the Camry, Toyota has blinked.

    I respect your position but I think you're off base. Sales will tell. Let's wait and see.
    T2
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Hi KD,
    I am beginning to think that Bamacar was right in that you do seem to put the positive spin of a Toyota salesman on this lamentable situation of overpowered cars coming to market. In this era we should expect car companies to present us with viable choices for quelling our "addiction" to Middle East oil and not be encouraged to embrace Power Hybrids as you do.


    Huh? '..embrace power hybrids'???

    You'll have to run this one by me again. You are asking a Prius owner about justifying overpowered vehicles? Do you think that the Camry Hybrid? is lamentably overpowered? To which post are you referring?

    A "good test" should have included cars with lower capacity than 1.5L don't you think ? The HCH for example

    Yes and why the HCH wasnt included is not stated, so I have no idea. It doesnt make the test any less valid as a comparo. In today's world these vehicle are often what people drive.

    Your latest comment about the dual purpose flexibility of the HSD seems off the mark to me as well.
    Camry buyers predilection for the 2.4L would tell me that this demographic would care less for 192HP.


    I've said several times over the past month or two in the Hybrid Camry forum and the 2007 Camry forum that the TCH is not likely to appeal to the present 4c Camry owner (with some exceptions). I have owned four 4c Camry's since 1989 with a lot of driving ( 30000-50000 mi annually ) in them. IMO this buyer ( me too ) is very very frugal. Kicking in some extra money for the TCH is not their style. I'm a prime example I do sell them but I moved out of a 4c ICE Camry to a Prius choosing not to pay the $4000 extra for the TCH over the Prius.

    I agree whole heartedly with Hermance that the TCH isn't competeting with the HAH. The HAH and the HH I think are relative busts because they are linked to their respective V6's. I've probably stated this 20 times on these forums.

    So I'll have to ask you what spin do you see me making? And to what exactly are you are taking exception? Do you feel that the TCH is going to fall flat? :surprise:

    Or, if I read between the lines, you are 'wishing' that Toyota, Honda, et al would go the route of promoting more efficiency ( quelling our 'addiction' to Middle East oil )with even smaller vehicles such as the 1.5L Scions, Yaris, Fit, Versa, etc.

    OK I am in full agreement with you on this too. I do drive a Prius ;). So again, what spin? I have an idea where you are going but I'll wait for your reply.

    Peace.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,993
    Or, if I read between the lines, you are 'wishing' that Toyota, Honda, et al would go the route of promoting more efficiency

    I would guess that is his exact feeling. It is mine for sure. I have railed against hybrids since the HAH was announced. Toyota has built one hybrid for good mileage. The rest they push the hot rod aspect more than the saving fuel. At least Honda gave us two out of three that could be used in the HOV lanes. Which by the way, may be the number one reason people buy hybrids in CA & VA.

    Toyota had the chance to have two hybrids in the high mileage arena and opted for the middle ground. Whether Prius owners like it or not the masses think it is UGLY. If they could have their favorite Camry that gets an HONEST 40-45 MPG average it would be a winner in my world. Still not enough to get it in the HOV lanes. Toyota should have shot for the 45 MPG combined EPA rating. That would still be 10 MPG behind the Prius. I don't think Toyota is in tune to the American hybrid market. They think we are all hot rodders. Altruism may be the only thing that sells this in betweener Camry hybrid. No logical or financial reason to buy one. Remember the bulk of the Camry buyers are happy with the 4 cylinder model.

    Why spend $10K more for the hybrid over the very nice fully loaded XLE 2.4L for about $24k. Toyota offering $750 rebates on the 2006 Camry Make them an even better deal than the hybrid. Oh well!
  • martianmartian Posts: 220
    I'm wondering if the new generation hybrid diesel cars under development by Peugeot/Citroen will be available in the USA? They claim fanatastic fuel mileage-over 65 MPG. These cars would sell well in the US-any chance they would be exported? I also think that bio diesel has a lot of potentail-genetic modification of certain plants (like fast growing pine trees) might yield a lot more fuel than soybeabs or sugar-derived ethanol.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,993
    I know Peugeot has a long history of good small diesel engines. I don't remember the last of them being imported. They are nice looking cars at least the ones I have seen.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,993
    February 3, 2006 PSA Peugeot Citroen has unveiled two demonstrator vehicles featuring a diesel-electric hybrid powertrain: the Peugeot 307 and the Citroën C4 Hybride HDi. Average diesel consumption for these two cars is 3.4 litres per 100 kilometres (83 mpg) with 90 grams of CO2 emitted per kilometre - a record for compact cars.

    83 MPG hybrid
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi Toyolla2:

    … the Hybrid Commuter Challenge, where two of the seven vehicles were a standard V6 Accord and a 4000lb Ford Escape. The winner was the car with the smallest engine (WOW ! that's a surprise) the ubiquitous Prius. They are getting a note from me soon about ethics in TV journalism and their lack thereof.

    And some other faults are showing here. That test was run bumper to bumper and guess what, the V6 got killed! Yes, they had to drive one behind the other and what good was that V6 and 255 HP in the AH? 255 HP was an absolute waste. Honda doesn’t get it and now Toyota does not get it. The Camry w/ HSD is a remarkable automobile and I haven’t even driven one yet but it could have been even better with higher FE using an Atkinsonized 1.8 out of the Corolla. Sure she would have been knocked back to 0 - 60 in 10.5 + seconds but her FE would have been high enough to hit the HOV lanes! I have the feeling Toyota targeted the Accord I4 in the performance arena and then knock it out in the FE department w/ the TCH. In any case, people are standing in line to throw $25 - $30K at the 1.5L Prius’ which has a 0 - 60 time of 10.5 + seconds. A V6 is a total and absolute waste in the kinds of environments that all of us drive in each and every day … In fact, except for crossing the Rockies at 110 + mph, the V6 is a total waste no matter where it is driven!

    Martian, the Peugeot Diesels are an example of excellent engineering but they have this small problem with emissions. They cannot touch even the worst EPA spec here in the states so it’s a no go until they clean them up. Ford has access to the Peugeot diesels as well since they co-developed them and have a method of emission control to beat Tier II/Bin5 but it’s not cheap nor is it guaranteed to be EPA legal. Adding to it, Peugeot has stated their diesel hybrid is way too expensive for the average consumer to bare vs. the std. Diesel counterpart let alone the gas only versions …

    Today, the price gap between a Hybride HDi model and a comparable diesel HDi model is still too wide and would have to be halved to make diesel hybrid vehicles accessible to most consumers.

    Backy, how are you proving many times that you received 25 - 40% higher then the EPA just by focusing on FE? High pressure tires are only good for ~ 1 - 2 mpg’s and drafting s only good when you can find the right situation. Interesting statement in either case …

    Gagrice, be careful as there are imperial gallons and then there are US gallons … 69 mpg (US gallons) combined on the Euro cycles is still an @$$ kicker and would destroy anything we have available here in the US including the Insight and Prius II with the performance of an HCH-I w/ a CVT …

    Good Luck

    Wayne R. Gerdes
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,993
    diesel hybrid is way too expensive for the average consumer to bear

    That is what shut the Chrysler hybrid down in 1997. Too expensive. There seems to be a lot of people willing to pay a big premium for the hybrid technology. I still like the Smart Twofour as a vehicle to run most of my errands. They are everywhere in Victoria BC. You could probably get an easy 100 MPG from one of them.

    I also agree that Toyota came so close to the perfect family sedan with the Camry hybrid.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 11,722
    Average diesel consumption for these two cars is 3.4 litres per 100 kilometres (83 mpg)

    Try 69 MPG

    3.4 liters = 0.8997 Gallons
    100 Kilometers = 62.15 Miles

    62.15 miles divided by .8997 gallons = 69.1 MPG

    Its only 83 MPG using the British Imperial gallon which is 1.201 US gallons.

    The sign said "No shoes, no shirt, no service", it didn't say anything about no pants.

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,993
    Yes xcel already caught it. I just posted the article and did not think about it. As was pointed out that is still better than any hybrid currently being sold in the USA. Probably wishful thinking. I doubt they will get the system to a price point they feel they can sell.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 11,722
    The other issue is that it is diesel which means the cost per mile would be equivalent to say about 55 MPG in a gas vehicle seeing that diesel is more expensive.

    The sign said "No shoes, no shirt, no service", it didn't say anything about no pants.

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,993
    seeing that diesel is more expensive.

    Not inherently only by higher taxation. And it is less expensive in most of the EU. The high price encourages the development of biodiesel. I work with a guy from SD says B20 is less than #2 diesel. That Citroen will not see the showrooms of America. We are too addicted to gasoline.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 11,722
    Don't care why its more expensive, it is more expensive. That means to be economically viable it has to get a lot better gas mileage.

    And biodiesel is only viable on a small scale.

    The sign said "No shoes, no shirt, no service", it didn't say anything about no pants.

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,993
    biodiesel is only viable on a small scale

    That may be. Those that are using B100 are doing more to slow the flow of fossil fuel than any gas car including all the current hybrids. Not everyone is just talking a good story.

    potato-chip maker that employs recycled fry oil to power a fleet of company cars. Kettle Foods (you know, the Kettle Chips brand with those bulletproof Mylar bags) operates a number of biodiesel-powered Volkswagen New Beetles to buzz around its hometown of Salem, Oregon. According to the company, it uses distilled sunflower and safflower oil, a blend it calls “Flower Power,” to save as much as 4.5 tons in CO2 emissions per vehicle every year.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,717
    Backy, how are you proving many times that you received 25 - 40% higher then the EPA just by focusing on FE?

    Rather than risk the wrath of our patient Host by elaborating ad infinitum on this off-topic thread, I'll just quickly say I did it by measuring fuel economy with my car's trip computer over the same suburban course, on the same day; one direction was driving lead-footed, the other as I described originally. mpg in the first case was about 24 (I forgot the exact number), and the other way it was about 32. I also frequently compare the mpg of my driving to my lead-footed DW's. While not as exact, we tend to go the same places around town (with 3 kids you do that...). My mpg is consistently 25-40% higher than hers, under similar conditions.
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi Backy:

    I can easily get 25-40% better fuel economy simply by driving with a focus on fuel efficiency. No big "tricks" like drafting or super-inflated tires, just basic stuff like not speeding, being easy on the gas, and anticipating stops.

    Oh, you receive 25 - 40% better then your wife and that consists of 32 mpg? Never mind, you are not speaking about EPA estimates and anybody could achieve that % above your wife in whatever car you drive without doing anything …

    Good Luck

    Wayne R. Gerdes
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,717
    Look back at the chain, we were talking about lead-footed driving. And no, I wasn't talking about EPA estimates, I never said I was. I was talking about real-world driving, short distances, lots of stops, etc. I don't know why you feel the need to berate other people because they don't get 1000 mpg like you do.
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi Backy:

    Just asking about what you really meant given there is a difference between higher FE then ones wife in the same automobile and 25 - 40% higher FE then the EPA estimates. I was not clear as to what you posted. One is very easy to achieve by the sounds of your wife’s driving habits. Mine too by the way. The other is far more difficult speaking from experience … Berating and 1,000 mpg? Both were a stretch.

    Good Luck

    Wayne R. Gerdes
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,717
    OK, to make you happy and make it clear to you... the EPA city rating for car in question is 24. I got 33% better than that in city driving using some basic gas-saving techniques, compared to driving over the same course on the same day using more common driving techniques. Let me know if that is not clear; if it is we can drop this and get back to the topic.
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi Backy:

    As you clearly stated, you beat the wife’s easy estimates, not the hard ones … To bad you didn’t post this information in the first place ;)

    Good Luck

    Wayne R. Gerdes
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,717
    Well, I didn't post all these details because I didn't know I would face the Spanish Inquisition just by making a comment about the fact that the TCH got "only" 31 mpg on a journalist's "lead-footed" tests.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Some of the discussions about ULTRA efficient vehicles leave some of us wishing for these great MPG numbers to be available here in the States.

    Who would have ever thought that we'd be seeing the Hybrids with 50 + MPG here in the good 'ol USA? FINALLY! The reason? The price of gas had gotten to a point where it started to build enough public interest, and enough people would actually buy the products.

    The manufacturers need a large enough consumer market. The consumer market itself can be suddenly expanded by a political event or natural or unnatural disaster which could then make fuel extremely expensive and/or in short supply. In today's world, this is not that unlikely, and a major shift in the price/availability of fuel could result in a situation that demands these ULTRA efficient vehicles.

    Then . . . with definative and sufficient motivating forces, you would increase the reality of having ULTRA efficient vehicles in this country.

    TagMan
This discussion has been closed.