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Hybrids in the News

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  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote-"PS There is a 2004 like new Civic HCH on eBay that is up to $8,800 with 5090 miles on it. Full warranty in excellent condition "no salvage". You may have jumped too soon."-end quote

    Like I said earlier, E-Bay is just about the WORST way to buy a car. Why would ANYONE buy a car sight unseen? Something about "suckers born every minute" applies.

    My point remains undisputed -

    2001 Priuses are holding their value in the 70% of MSRP range after three years.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Were there some posts removed or is my browser acting funny?
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,890
    Folks,
    I shouldn't have to drop into these hybrid-related discussions every two days and delete posts and tell you to get back on topic and be civil to one another. This is about NEWS - we already have a resale value discussion. E-Bay ads don't count as news.

    If you forget what the topic is, please read the discussion title before posting. We have a lot of hybrid discussions, and we'd like to keep the conversation organized so that other members can find info that interests them.

    There's a debate on television tonight where professionals (?) will challenge each other's knowledge and credibility. If that's what you're after, please tune in, but this is not that venue. Please keep it civil, on-topic, and informative.

    kirstie_h
    Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

    MODERATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    We were debating the fact that Hybrids can be purchased for far less than the "common news article" quote of $3000 more than the non-Hybrid counterpart, and we *DID* surely get off into resale value...

    But no one was being uncivil......
  • Thank you for stepping in. I think this thread should be URL links to news topics only and maybe some minimum discussion around those specific links. It got way off track about one HCH purchase.

    Now news link "Toyota eyes Hybrid Production In the US"

    http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?dist=rss&param=arch- ive&siteid=mktw&guid=%7B944E93C0%2D3B14%2D4AAD%2DBD6E%2DD- 6A431FB49FC%7D
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Here is a recent MSN article bashing Hybrid cost-effectiveness, but in the same breath comparing a Camry to a Prius and saying that if you bought a Prius over a Camry that "every nickel saved on gas is money in the bank." They also, in the second to last paragraph, mention the "over time" value of the Prius:

    "The Prius, on the other hand, is riding a wave of consumer demand, with new models commanding thousands over sticker and used examples are maintaining their value well. Projected depreciation is less than that of the Camry, for example."

    http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/Savinganddebt/Saveonacar/P372- - 72.asp
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Another recent article praising resale value of Hybrids:

    http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04249/373285.stm

    "Both the Toyota Prius and the Honda Civic Accord, the two most popular hybrid cars, have been named best buys by Consumer Reports the past two years, respectively, with the Prius receiving an "excellent" reliability rating for the most recent year. While hybrid cars can cost thousands more than conventional counterparts, hybridcars.com notes that their resale value have been holding up, though the numbers for comparison are relatively small. Fewer than 50,000 were sold in the United States last year out of total domestic sales of 16.7 million."
  • Honda Civic Accord? hehehe

    Dennis
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    Both the Toyota Prius and the Honda Civic Accord, the two most popular hybrid cars, have been named best buys by Consumer Reports the past two years, respectively,...

    CR will bristle over that article. They don't name any cars as "best buys", ever. Maybe the writer was confusing CR with a different magazine that does name cars as "best buys."
  • tempusvntempusvn Posts: 119
    http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200410/200410010025.h- tml

    Hyundai Unveils Environment-Friendly Hybrid Car
    Hyundai Motor introduced its Click hybrid model at a ceremony to celebrate the development of future vehicles, held at the Grand Hyatt Seoul on Friday. The company has provided 50 hybrid Clicks to the Ministry of Environment and becomes the first Korean automaker to mass produce road-ready hybrid cars.
      
    Hyundai Motor has invested W10.6 billion in developing the Click hybrid vehicle, which has a fuel efficiency of 18 kilometers per liter, 5.9 kilometers longer than its gasoline-powered cousins currently on the market. Hyundai Motor Chairman Chung Mong-koo said that the company plans to develop a new hybrid car model named the MC by the end of next year and will sell them on the consumer market starting in 2006. Hyundai Motor will invest W300 billion by 2010 to expand its production capacity to 300,000 hybrid cars a year.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Hyundai should focus on getting its gasoline engine right (when it comes to fuel economy).
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,020
    "Hyundai should focus on getting its gasoline engine right (when it comes to fuel economy)."

    Why would you say that? The Elantra gets better mileage than the comparable 4 cylinder Accord and has a better Emissions rating.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    Hyundai is putting a lot of focus on getting its gas engines "right." I guess you missed all the press over the past couple of years about Hyundai's next generation of ICE engines. Here's just one article on the subject, from
    http://www.aiada.org/publications.asp?id=5102004-20&pub=First- Up

    Hyundai Alabama Plant Integral to Future Plans; Automaker’s Quality Improvement Push Yields 300,000-Mile Life Span Engine
    Hyundai Motors’ new Montgomery, Alabama, production facility will play a major role in the company’s aggressive plan to unveil six new or redesigned vehicles in the next three years.? Two of Hyundai’s higher-volume new vehicles, the Santa Fe and the Sonata, will be produced in Alabama, where “production capacity is 300,000 units,” reports Automotive News, which spoke to Heung Soo Lheem, the company’s senior vice president of export planning. In the meantime, the Korean automaker that surprised the Automotive industry last week when it leapfrogged to the top of J.D. Power’s Initial Quality rankings, is sending signals that, now more than ever, it is pushing forward with plans to further increase the quality of its vehicles.? Automotive News reports the automaker plans to utilize a “high-tech engine family with a planned 300,000-mile life span” in most of its vehicles.? The Chrysler Group and Mitsubishi Motors Corp. will also swap its existing four-cylinders with Hyundai’s.? ”The engine family has three displacements, 1.8, 2.0 and 2.4 liters. Turbocharged versions also will be available, along with a liquid-propane version that at least Hyundai will offer. All versions will be equipped with variable valve timing to improve fuel economy and reduce emissions. North American production begins next year in Dundee, Mich.”? More about Hyundai’s industry-leading engine: “Hyundai engineers set a target of 300,000 miles without a major failure, twice the Big 3 target for most engines.”? But Hyundai’s cautioned that it’s 300,000 target may take several years to realize because, as senior executive vice president for powertrains Lee Hyun Soon explained, "Some of the component suppliers will not be meeting the target."
  • Why would you say that? The Elantra gets better mileage than the comparable 4 cylinder Accord and has a better Emissions rating.

    You are right. They should focus more on their MBB/NW cases and try to reduce that number first.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    An Article detailing the Prius increase for 2005:

    http://www.just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=45860
  • bamacarbamacar Posts: 749
    What data are you looking at?

    Hyundai Elantra get Manual 34-26 Auto 32-24
    Honda Accord gets Manual 34-26 Auto 34-24

    Given that the Accord is much larger, heavier, quieter, etc., Hyundai is not bad but far from Honda and Toyota for fuel economy (compare the actual Elantra competitors Corolla and Civic). You could also compare the Accord to its competitor the Sonata and the gap is fairly large.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    It is based on experience. I have put a total of 5000 miles on Sonata V6 (95% highway) and have averaged a shade better than 27 mpg. With similar driving style, I average about 32 mpg in my Accord (and thats a 1998 model, EPA rated on hwy at 30 mpg). Now, you could say that Sonata is equipped with V6, and my Accord is four-banger, but behind the wheels, the Accord is more responsive and feels more powerful (easier car to overtake on 2-lane highways).

    BTW, in city I average 24-25 mpg in the Accord. I have little city driving experience in a Sonata (and none in an Elantra) and have not calculated mileage in those cars.

    And if you go by EPA estimates and still want to compare Elantra to Accord, we should be putting a lot of things into perspective (MY 2004 comparisons):

    Elantra 2.0-liter I-4 (auto) compact sedan
    Engine Output: 132-138 HP/136 lb.-ft
    Curb Weight: 2700 lb
    Mileage: 24/32 mpg
    Greenhouse Gas Emissions: 7.0

    Accord 2.4-liter I-4 (auto) midsize sedan
    Engine Output: 160 HP/161 lb.-ft
    Curb Weight: 3200 lb.
    Mileage: 24/34 mpg
    Greenhouse Gas Emissions: 6.9

    Accord is 500 lb. heavier, has about 25-40 HP more from a larger displacement engine, and still matches EPA rated city gas mileage (and beats on the highway by 2 mpg). In terms of performance (and size and weight and engine output), Elantra compares well to Civic, but you don’t want to compare fuel mileage between those two.

    Now, Sonata is a logical comparison to Accord, and it comes with two engine choices (curb weight/size is about the same as Accord at 3200 lb.).
    2.4 I-4 (138 HP/ 147 lb.-ft) is rated 22/30 mpg (more comparable to the 240 HP Accord V6 than it is to the 160 HP Accord I-4)

    2.7 V6 (170 HP/181 lb.-ft) is rated 19/27 mpg (so I actually did a shade better than highway rating).
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    I guess they are trying to get it right. Hopefully, Mitsubishi gets a major role to play there, because DCX couldn't brag about its DOHC engines either.

    But, what did I say?
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,020
    "It is based on experience"

    I picked the Elantra 4 cylinder and the Accord 4 cylinder because EPA show them as midsize. With manual transmission the Elantra is rated at 30 mpg combined and the Accord at 29 mpg. The Hyundai also got ULEV II and the Accord only LEV II. The Accord has 3 five star ratings vs 2 five star ratings for the Elantra. Just seemed like a closer match up than you have suggested.

    I felt you were a bit harsh on Hyundai announcing their upcoming hybrid. I think innovation is good coming from all automakers. None have a corner on the innovation market in spite of a few very biased opinions expressed here on the forum. For me I am waiting for a high mileage car I don't get claustrophobic in.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Well, bringing up the weak link shouldn't come out as harshness. Drive train isn't Hyundai's strength, at least as of now. There are no two ways about it.

    BTW, more than compact or midsize, it is the weight and power that will determine fuel economy. Elantra is far from being close to Accord in any regard. Sonata makes for a better comparison.

    To have a realistic chance at a successful hybrid design, the ICE part will have to be addressed. This is why we see companies like Honda and Toyota continually work on improving various efficiencies of their engines.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Not in the news yet, but this has a potential to be! This picture appears in a preview of Honda Legend (aka Acura RL) in a British magazine’s website (The Autoexpress Preview). The preview doesn’t mention anything “hybrid”, and actually seems to have driven a different car (dark blue) compared to the one pictured above. But, under the hood, the shroud is identical to Acura RL’s!

    This picture may have been obtained from Honda, but whoever provided it, did he/she know that the thing shows IMA printed on the cover?
  • rfruthrfruth Posts: 630
    They have the US hybrid bus market now for China - snip - SHANGHAI, China - The first hybrid bus to be introduced in China has been announced here today by General Motors Corp.and its local partner, the Shanghai Automotive industry Corp (SAIC)
    http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0410/11/autosinsider-299- 581.htm
  • rfruthrfruth Posts: 630
    An Acura hybrid, why not - snip - Acura to Expand AWD Offerings, Possibly Offer Hybrid
    WardsAuto.com, Oct 11 2004 WASHINGTON – American Honda Motor Co. Inc.’s Acura luxury unit eventually will expand its new Super-Handling All-Wheel-Drive system to more models than just the new ’05 RL.

     http://wardsauto.com/ar/auto_acura_expand_awd/index.htm
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Prius at Slat Flats delivers 16 MPG at 132 miles per hour:

    Say "smart car" and we typically think of the Daimler-Benz two-seater that first went into production in 1997 and can now be seen in many European cities. For as long as cars have been around, Europeans have been more conscientious about fuel consumption and extremely crafty in dealing with parking issues. Today, over 40% of cars in Europe use low-sulfur diesel1, which costs 30% less than standard fuel, gets 30% better mileage and emits fewer pollutants2. When we were in Europe recently, we saw and drove new, diesel-fueled Peugeots and Citroëns that were peppy, sharp looking and decidedly modern. We also came across service stations that brought inspiration to the highway.
    But the U.S. market has witnessed one hugely successful new smart car in the last couple of years—the Toyota Prius. A hybrid engine vehicle, the Prius employs new technologies to improve fuel consumption and conserve precious resources. A built-in computer optimizes the efficiency of the engine's dual power sources of gas and electricity. On a standard highway, the Prius delivers approximately 50 miles to the gallon, and accelerates and cruises at normal speeds.
    Two months ago, we were invited to witness the 2004 Prius establish a performance record at the Bonneville Salt Flats in Utah during Speed Week. Twice a year, this event attracts a motley crew of garage mechanics, engineers and friendly, independent, rebellious speed geeks who camp out in 100-degree desert heat in the hopes of establishing new land speed records. People old and young come to watch the events, decked out in almost comical hats and other shading devices, with not a trace of designer black in their wardrobes. Names of local garages and crews grace the car bodies, rather than graphic logos for beer and cigarette companies. This is authentic American hot-rodding that dates back to the 1950s. A day pass is only $8, and you can walk around and watch hundreds of amazing vehicles work out on the five- and seven-mile straightaways, reaching speeds of up to 300 mph. Click here for more images.
    Speed-racing at the salt flats has been drawing attention since 1914, when a Blitzen Benz set a record of 141.73 mph. Since that time, drivers have been setting records with a variety of vehicles, including a record of 622.4 mph set by a jet powered vehicle. Cars, motorcycles, trucks and all kinds of machines descend upon the desert to establish personal bests. The character of these events is somewhere between The Road Warrior, Burning Man, The Right Stuff and a J.M.W. Turner landscape. It is a surreal environment, with crunchy salt underfoot, horizons shimmering from the sweltering heat, and a pageant of car buffs, trailers and all the paraphernalia that goes into the unique engine-driven subculture.
    The Toyota Prius was the unique entry this year and drew much attention as an example of an environmentally sensitive car and as an important piece of modern design. At the salt flats, it established a land speed record exceeding 132 mph, and, amazingly, delivered 16-plus miles per gallon while zooming along at its highest speeds. Kudos to the Prius team of Japanese and American engineers and designers who were all present for this event—and who drove during the trials, rather than employing professional speed racers.
    The Prius is a beacon of hope for the U.S. auto market. With its stylish looks and a sticker price of just over $20,000, the Prius has mass appeal, in addition to making a difference to the environment. Toyota will sell 100,000 Prius' in their first year and there is a waiting list of several months to buy one. The overwhelming demand has spurred many U.S. automakers to introduce similar hybrid engines for their vehicles. Along with the European smart car, it hopefully signals a turning point in the industry, or at least a willingness to take on the problems of pollution and resource depletion that the car industry has in large part contributed
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,020
    Now, if you happen to be Toyota and make your money by being the "second rat who gets the cheese" instead of the "early bird who gets the worm", you will pursue the same tact but a little more subtley so as not to truly inflame your loyal customers.
    You will provide a BEV conversion to a normal vehicle but still restrict its distribution (partly because your government isn't funding much of the effort)
    You will make sure your BEV conversion is functional but not particularly exciting or eye catching so as not to raise the average person's interest or attract regulatory action against you
    You will launch a hybrid that still contains components from all your corporate divisions


    Very interesting article....

    http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=754
  • Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 10:43:03 -0400
    From: "IRS Newswire" <irs-newswire@lists.qai.irs.gov>
    Subject: IR-2004-125 -- 2005 TOYOTA PRIUS CERTIFIED FOR CLEAN-FUEL DEDUCTION; NEW LAW RESTORES FULL DEDUCTION AMOUNT FOR 2004 AND 2005
    To: "IRS News Release Service" <irs-newswire@lists.qai.irs.gov>

    IR-2004-125, October 14, 2004

    2005 TOYOTA PRIUS CERTIFIED FOR CLEAN-FUEL DEDUCTION; NEW LAW RESTORES FULL DEDUCTION AMOUNT FOR 2004 AND 2005

    WASHINGTON &#151;The Internal Revenue Service has certified theToyota Prius for model year 2005 as being eligible for the clean-burning fuel deduction. The certification means taxpayers who purchase this vehicle new may claim a tax deduction of $2,000 on Form 1040.

    Federal tax law allows individuals to claim a deduction for the incremental cost of buying a motor vehicle that is propelled by a
    clean-burning fuel. By combining an electric motor with a gasoline-powered engine, these hybrid vehicles obtain greater fuel efficiency and produce fewer emissions than similar vehicles powered solely by conventional gasoline-powered engines.

    Under the recently signed Working Families Tax Relief Act of 2004, the clean-burning fuel deduction is up to $2,000 for certified vehicles first put into service in 2004 and 2005. The deduction will be limited to $500 for vehicles placed in service in 2006 and no deduction will be allowed after that year.

    The one-time deduction must be taken in the year the vehicle is originally used. The taxpayer must be the original owner. Individuals take this
    benefit as an adjustment to income on Form 1040. They do not have to itemize deductions on their tax returns to claim it.

    The amount of the deduction for the 2005 model year Prius was set after the manufacturer, Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc., documented for the IRS
    the incremental cost related to the vehicle&#146;s electric motor and related equipment.

    The IRS previously certified the Toyota Prius for model years 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2004. The IRS also previously certified the Honda Insight for
    model years 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2004 and the Honda Civic Hybrid for model year 2003 and 2004.
This discussion has been closed.