Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Hybrids in the News

13536384041242

Comments

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    I think that depends on how much the Accord diesel costs vs. hybrid options like the HAH and upcoming Camry and Altima hybrids. If there is only 1000 GBP difference between the diesel and hybrid, I can see many buyers opting for the (gas/electric) hybrid.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,850
    If there is only 1000 GBP difference between the diesel and hybrid, I can see many buyers opting for the (gas/electric) hybrid.

    Why do you think they would pay a 1000 Pounds more if the MPG were close to equal? That is assuming all the other options were equal. That is about $1800 more with no realized gain in economy.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    If economy were everything, we'd all be driving used ECHOs I guess. $1800 would buy you extra fuel economy (compare the mpg of a diesel automatic Jetta to that of a Prius, for example, e.g. C/D's September 2004 test), quieter operation (especially when the hybrid is running on electric power only, or stopped), cleaner and less-smelly exhaust, and less fuel problems (how well does that diesel fuel flow at -30 F anyway). Toss in the $2000 Federal tax deduction, the tax breaks from some states, and HOV benes from some states and you've got a LOT of reasons to go hybrid vs. diesel.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    Challenge Bibendum - where energy conservation is the goal.

    http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=7667&sid=19- 6&n=156
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,850
    I was thinking more the Accord diesel vs the Accord hybrid. I have never seen the challenge of a Prius to a VW Jetta TDI. The VW out handles the Prius by a very large margin. As far as diesel and the cold you know that is a simple solution of mixing #1 during the winter. I still trust the proven longevity of the diesel engines. Back to apples and apples the Accord HAH gets about 10 mpg less than it's diesel counterpart. I would think for a Brit that would be a no brainer. And according to the article that is exactly as they see it. The hybrid is over priced when you have decent choices. The US is a different story. We have very few choices when it comes to high mileage.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    I didn't know the discussion was limited to the Accord hybrid and diesel. Is the 10 mpg difference based on real-world numbers for both? I think other comparisons are valid, too, since we are talking about an article comparing the relative economy of hybrids vs. diesels, and many people compare the HCH and Prius to the Jetta/Golf diesels--as C/D did last month, and found big benefits in fuel economy for the hybrids vs. the Jetta diesel under real-world driving conditions, with the exception of highway for the HCH (43) vs. Jetta (42).
  • "Don’t go on imposing your presumptions on others."

    I am sorry if you feel that way. All you gotta say is "I disagree".

    "Couple of prototypes led to Insight."

    That's good. As you pointed out, some/most prototypes don't make it to production stage. As Dual Note concept is 4 years old already, it would be safe to say that the design was just not realistic for a production car. RIP.

    There were 7 prototypes made and test drove at least 1 million km before finalizing on 04 Prius. If you know how traditional cars are designed and tested, you'll know how much extra Toyota to get it right. It would take an ignorant to call 04 Prius a beta product.

    "UC is expected to be more expensive than batteries (BTW, how much does the battery pack in 400h cost?)."

    $0 for 400h battery pack since rumors are that Lexus is going to warrenty the pack for life time of the car. Ultracapacitors can hybrid with NiMH battery to create more synergism. All it takes is a small UC pack large enough to do 0-60mph; (guessing 150Wh, about 50W light bulb for three hours) to handle the most extreme discharge and charge cycles. This would also double NiMH battery life. I expect this solution implemented in next gen Prius if the price come down enough to do so.

    "And did you take into account current/voltage requirement based on design?"

    Current(amp) X Voltage = Watt. NiMH modules are rated to output Watt per kilogram. The world highest specific power NiMH pack is used in Prius. I used it to derive the weight from it even though I could use lower power pack from Honda but I didn't. All the hybrids on the market today(Prius,HCH,Insight,HAH,and FEH) use NiMH modules somewhere around 6-6.5 Ah. Yes, I kept that in mind when I calculated the weight.

    "Does Accord Hybrid use a 23% (physically) larger battery pack than Civic Hybrid?"

    I believe Accord Hybrid's battery pack is higher in density, so it should be a little lighter and smaller than HCH. Suggesting minor improvement in battery technology every IMA generation only helps my point. Accord muscle-tech with 150hp electric will need a over 9 times specific power breakthrough in battery or major cost reduction in UC technology. We will not see high power electric IMA any time soon.

    "The bottom line was size of battery pack. You have conveniently skipped that part."

    No, the bottom line was race car's battery don't need to deal with city driving situations so I can conveniently skip that part.

    "In case of Toyota, do you think a major, or a minor change was involved going from Prius I to Prius II? And what about 400H. Is it going to use identical set up as Prius II?"

    03' Prius to 04' Prius was a major leap in technological achievement. Conceptually, both cars operate the same way! Sure 04' got more power, more in both gas ICE and electric motor. In fact, electric motor gained more power than gas ICE becoming almost as powerful as the gas ICE. The design is very flexible and allows that kind of optimization and results speak for itself.

    For IMA, as the drivetrain power grew, the electric power lag behind gas ICE power. You can claim the next IMA will have much powerful electric motor but the track record shows otherwise. It becomes more clear that electric storage device is preventing IMA from acheiving a balance hybrid output. To change it, IMA will need to change fundamentally. Maybe become more like HSD by adapting series-parallel design as in that scooter.

    There is not much more to discuss about this. I made my points enough to pin you down. There is no need for the count down. I rest my case.

    Dennis
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,850
    I don't think there is any real world mileage numbers for the HAH yet. The Accord diesel has been available for several months and is shown to average 52 Imperial MPG. I think that should be about 44 MPG US. The HAH is said to be 30/37 MPG EPA which is about 10 MPG less than the diesel. However I understand the HAH will probably outperform the diesel Accord. Not by enough for me to buy it over he diesel version. The diesel mileage is closer to the Prius and that I think would be the decision for buyers given those choices.

    I think people that are going for the absolute maximum mileage would buy the HCH, Insight or Jetta TDI with a manual transmission. I believe the tests were run with Automatics. Many people are getting 50-60 mpg and more with a manual transmission in all 3 of those vehicles.
  • "I think the difference is in Europe they have great handling clean burning diesel cars that compete with the hybrids. The Prius is over priced for that market. I would take an Accord diesel over a Prius any day of the week."

    Did you know that Accord Diesel is slower than Prius? They cost about the same. Accord Diesel get less mpg than Prius as well(go check on honda europse site). Sure it meets Euro4 but Accord Diesel is not clean enough to bring it over to US. HAD does not meet US emission standard that is already in effect.

    Dennis
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,850
    Did you know that Accord Diesel is slower than Prius?

    Your making a joke right? The Accord diesel is a 9 second 0-60 car easily. With 130 mph top speed. It has a combined mileage of 44 MPG US and far exceeds the handling of the Prius. The only reason they are not importing them is the ignorant regulations that CARB sets for CA. They easily pass current EPA standards for diesel cars.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,850
    Accord Tourer i-CTDi diesel to America, Look out all you hybrids. That is one great looking car.

    'In our efforts to extend the Force's use of diesel vehicles, to aid both the environment and our fuel budget, our ongoing partnership with Honda and the new diesel accord enables us to achieve all these aims in one vehicle. The performance and reliability of Honda in front line operations have proven to be very successful and I have no doubt that the Accord's new diesel engine will continue that success'.

    http://www.wiltshire.police.uk/news/newsview.asp?id=501
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    I think people that are going for the absolute maximum mileage would buy the HCH, Insight or Jetta TDI with a manual transmission.

    I agree, stick shifts have advantages for fuel economy, but the sad fact is that most people (in the U.S. at least) buy automatics. Probably why most third-party tests are done with them.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    It is okay to have beliefs. IMO, prototypes have a purpose, not necessarily to represent a future production car, but can represent technologies that can be (realistically) implemented. Dual Note fits the bill. Almost every technical piece outside of the multi-motor IMA, 6-speed clutch-less manual and the new 300 HP/V6 have been implemented in production cars (all of them, in Japanese market). Would you bet on it that the drive train components never will make it to production, in one form or another?

    Dual Note also demonstrated that Honda had continued development of ATTS (Active Torque Transfer System), even with demise of the car that used it (Prelude SH). However, this time around, ATTS was coupled to an AWD system. This will sound familiar if you know a little about SH-AWD (2005 RL). But, Dual Note wasn’t first prototype to have coupled ATTS to an AWD system. The history goes back to 1991 Honda FSX.

    The 280 HP luxury sport sedan (FSX) with AWD system using ATTS for continuous torque movement on rear axle didn’t get to production as is, 14 years later, the idea, however, is implemented in 300 HP luxury sedan (2005 RL). Sometimes, that’s the purpose of prototypes.

    A few months after Dual Note was revealed (2001 Tokyo Auto Show), Honda showcased another prototype, Acura RDX, at 2002 NAIAS. And it has an AWD implementation of a powerful multi-motor IMA. Of course, you don’t want to believe in a powerful IMA system.

    I had a question for you regarding cost of battery pack in 400H. You quoted $0. Well, I couldn’t care less about replacement cost, whether Toyota is willing to take a hit, or is going to include it in the initial cost of the vehicle. The question wasn’t answered as it was meant to be.

    Your theory of proportions (ICE power versus Electric power) intrigues me. A hybrid set up isn’t a system of disintegrated units. This is key to understanding the underlying engineering of the system. And as much as you like to compare the top end power, have you tried to do the same at the bottom end? I thought so. At one end of the spectrum that you chose (top end), IMA accounts for about 6-8% of the power. The other end that you ignore, IMA accounts for about 40-43% of the power.

    I guess the more power ICE produces, the worse the hybrid system is unless the electrical system grows proportionately.

    Going back to your calculations, here are some numbers for you to play with:
    Voltage: 288 V
    Current: 6.0 Ah

    How many miles do you think the “wattage” would allow you to travel in a vehicle powered by a 50kW motor?

    Ultracapacitors can hybrid with NiMH battery to create more synergism.

    I don’t see a point in having battery at all! And that, may be the future.

    No, the bottom line was race car's battery don't need to deal with city driving situations so I can conveniently skip that part.

    Before I let you do that, which situation is more demanding when it comes to be able to retain charge in a battery pack to go with the (high) power demand? Would it be:
    A: Race Track
    B: Stop and Go traffic

    Based on your earlier hypothesis, one would need excessively large battery pack for a 150 HP electric motor (almost 10 times as large as the one in HAH, if you ignore progress made in battery technology over 7 years).

    You can claim the next IMA will have much powerful electric motor but the track record shows otherwise.

    I do not believe in absolute statements. Too many things dictate engineering and marketing decisions. Knowing that Honda has showcased multi-motor IMA system, it would come as no surprise to me if we see one in production form. Acura RDX could be it. In the mean time, it is possible that Honda will continue to refine electric motor output and storage to a point when switching to a more powerful IMA set up would make more sense. Being an engineer, I tend to think like one, so this is how I look at it. I couldn’t say about you.

    To change it, IMA will need to change fundamentally. Maybe become more like HSD by adapting series-parallel design as in that scooter.

    And what is your understanding on fundamentals of IMA?
  • "It(Accord Diesel) has a combined mileage of 44 MPG US and far exceeds the handling of the Prius."

    European Prius comes with better suspension and 16" rims. Let me provide you details about European Prius from one of the article that I have.

    "Tuning the chassis to suit European tastes was a priority," says Jos de Boes, general manager of the Vehicle Engineering Division at Toyota Europe. “For Prius the biggest priority was achieving stability in all driving conditions. Because this car can reach higher speeds we had to ensure it was safe at those speeds even under an emergency lane change.

    "Our second priority was controlling the roll motion. We wanted to avoid excessive roll during cornering. What we ended up with was adopting rebound springs at the front and rear of the Prius for Europe - which are not fitted to Japan and USA versions where driving conditions are very different.”

    The basis which the Japanese and European Prius engineers had to work from was very sound in the first place. The new generation Prius adopts the front MacPherson strut independent suspension from the already acclaimed new Toyota Avensis whilst the rear suspension is an evolution of the Corolla’s torsion beam setup that allows a degree of anti-lift geometry and toe-out under hard cornering that promotes exceptional stability and controllability.

    image

    image

    Dennis
  • "I had a question for you regarding cost of battery pack in 400H...The question wasn’t answered as it was meant to be."

    As a consumer, I answered it from a buyer's point of view. It is not even clear how much 04 Prius battery cost so, your guess is as good as mine. I can tell you that I can buy consumer electronic NiMH rechargable batteries that can hold the same amount of electricity as Prius' pack for about $500. Salvaged 04 battery pack is going for $800 on ebay. All I can say is that 400H battery pack should cost roughly(minus sensor electronics) twice of 04 Prius' pack.

    "And as much as you like to compare the top end power, have you tried to do the same at the bottom end? I thought so."

    When a full hybrid(HSD) powertrain can output variable thrust at any speed, there is no need to worry about top end, bottom end, middle and somewhere in between. If you want to see HSD power curve, I can post it again. What you just described is the extra problem that was created by the need for transmission because single ICE could not do everything alone. HSD does not inherit those draw backs of traditional cars because HSD is the result of a teamwork and simply does not have a transmission. IMA hybrids are still affected by it because it was built on top of traditional car design.

    "which situation is more demanding when it comes to be able to retain charge in a battery pack to go with the (high) power demand?"

    I am not sure what you are asking. Are you asking which create more electricity demanding situation? Or, which situation enable battery to retain more charge?

    "Based on your earlier hypothesis, one would need excessively large battery pack for a 150 HP electric motor (almost 10 times as large as the one in HAH, if you ignore progress made in battery technology over 7 years)."

    My calculations were based on current highest specific power NiMH modules. That includes significant progress made during EV development to until now.

    I believe Ultracapacitor-Battery hybrid energy storage device is going to be the next step. A small UC pack can absorb most of the abuse from hard acceleration and regen braking at high speed. NiMH pack can recharge UC pack if needed or supply the remaining power directly to the powerful electric motor. This way, we'll get the benefit of efficient UC extreme long life and low cost of NiMH battery.

    "I do not believe in absolute statements."

    Honda made a strong statement when they released three generations of IMA hybrids where electric motor power lagged severely(15x) behind ICE power while ignoring reducing emission. Track record speaks for itself. It does not require you to believe in it.

    "Being an engineer, I tend to think like one, so this is how I look at it."

    Fair enough. What kind of engineer? I am pretty certain that you are not an electrical engineer.

    Dennis
  • motownusamotownusa Posts: 836
    http://biz.yahoo.com/fool/041019/1098199080_1.html

    Very interesting article about the future of hybrids. Looks like Expedition, Suburbans and other dinosaur SUVs will go the way of the dinosaur.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    An article about Ethanol/Gasoline hybrid cars in Brazil:

    http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/10/20/business/fuel.html
  • "Being an engineer, I tend to think like one, so this is how I look at it."

    Fair enough. What kind of engineer? I am pretty certain that you are not an electrical engineer.

    Dennis


    Be careful and kind how you pass judgements. All opinions are welcome and they are all just that OPINIONS . I seem to remember something about a 400% magnetic gain and about discounting a constant 33 Hp ICE loss in the Prius. LOL

    I also tend to think like an engineer. BSEE, MBA if it matters.

    YMMV,

    MidCow
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,824
    Enough questioning each other's credentials. This is not a forum to decide who knows more than whom, or who has the most expertise.

    I can give you my cast-iron guarantee that there will be no prizes for the "winner" here.

    kirstie_h
    Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

    MODERATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • Thanks,
     That was exactly my point!
This discussion has been closed.